Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

NearertoGod said:
When we get into the topic of salvation there are so many possible and interesting viewpoints for it it is almost baffling.
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I agree. But of course if we could see it in black and white in the bible, the viewpoints can be limited.

And here's one perspective of it. Even in the old testament times, God gives conditions for salvation:

And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee;

but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever
1 Chrs 28:9

This is true even in the New Testament:

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off
Rom 11:22

Once a person is saved by grace, he will be saved from hellfire as well if that person continues in his goodness.

But...

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries
Heb 10:26-27
 
I had a thought waking up

that if there are two established points that people teeter back and forth from (myself included)

perhaps the two are both pointing to a third point that they can't see despite themselves .
 
xspinningisfun said:
I agree. That's what I said :). A lot of the time, people just say the prayer and don't mean it. And then they think they're going to heaven because they said a certain prayer. But chances are, if they didn't mean it, they aren't. Unless they decide to change their ways, repent, and follow Jesus.
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I also think it is not a matter of changing their ways cause any one can do that under their own power but it needs to be the Power of the Holy Spirit and the person wants to change to be more like Jesus . Yes lots of people say Lord , Lord but in the end the sheep will be separated from the goats . And guess Who is going to do that ?
 
When we get into the topic of salvation there are so many possible and interesting viewpoints for it it is almost baffling. One might say one thing, another might disagree and say another thing. As I said before, only God can determine this. We can only see what is on the outside but we cannot see what is on the inside, so it would be difficult to understand a person's relationship with God. It would be like trying to find a ball in a foggy glass.
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When the topic of salvation is discussed it for obvious reasons can be discussed in many ways but bottom line is , if it does not line up with the Word of God it is all fruitless . Jesus said there is only one way to heaven and " Ye must be born again " Not a natural birth but spiritual and if people can't grasp that , I am sorry their " Ball in the foggy glass will remain as so " There is no foggy area in salvation . There is only one way and it is through the Precious Blood that our Saviour shed for us . He died so that we may live .

Jesus said " I am the way the Truth and the light . " There is only one way to salvation .

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

“For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”- John 3:17
 
Completely understood. :)

Mentioning the 'foggy glass', I used that as a metaphor to show that we can only see what is on the outside but not on the inside. I did not mean to say there was a 'foggy area in salvation'. But that's okay, I had wanted to expand more on it but I didn't want to make my post too long.

:)

Dusty said:
When the topic of salvation is discussed it for obvious reasons can be discussed in many ways but bottom line is , if it does not line up with the Word of God it is all fruitless . Jesus said there is only one way to heaven and " Ye must be born again " Not a natural birth but spiritual and if people can't grasp that , I am sorry their " Ball in the foggy glass will remain as so " There is no foggy area in salvation . There is only one way and it is through the Precious Blood that our Saviour shed for us . He died so that we may live .

Jesus said " I am the way the Truth and the light . " There is only one way to salvation .

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

“For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”- John 3:17
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I also think it is not a matter of changing their ways cause any one can do that under their own power but it needs to be the Power of the Holy Spirit and the person wants to change to be more like Jesus . Yes lots of people say Lord , Lord but in the end the sheep will be separated from the goats . And guess Who is going to do that ?
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Amen, Dusty! :)
 
Ball in the foggy glass will remain as so " There is no foggy area in salvation . There is only one way and it is through the Precious Blood that our Saviour shed for us . He died so that we may live .
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For edification purposes, i think it be due to note that there is a common foggy area in our most recent discourses . such as the question as to whether salvation is based on what we do or God's faithfulness down at the deepest root of our expression of salvation theology .

but it seems we all agree with this

Statement of Faith
1) The Holy Scriptures, in it's original form, is the inerrant Word of God.
2) There is only one God who reveals Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
3) We are separated from God due to sin.
4) God's Son, Jesus Christ, was born of the virgin Mary, died on the cross for our sins, and rose again on the third day.
5) We can only be saved by repenting of sin, and accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior by faith as stated in John 3:16. (The faith mentioned here will produce actions)
6)This salvation is provided by the grace of God. We cannot be saved through our own efforts, our works or by the intervention of man on our behalf.
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So in this the scriptures and this statement of faith seem to be saying to the questions,

are we saved by faith? yes .

does faith involve actions? yes .

are we saved by our own efforts? of course not .

So overall we appear to be speaking about the same thing but just wrangling over the issue what takes on primary emphasis . which appears to be a perceptory issue .

of which since we are all unique .. we will always thus have a unique perception of everything than the person standing next to us . thus it is best to agree to disagree upon which cannot agree upon and . focus on what we do agree upon .

and i have no idea why my typing style changed .

agape .
 
Michael Collum said:
of which since we are all unique .. we will always thus have a unique perception of everything than the person standing next to us . thus it is best to agree to disagree upon which cannot agree upon
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So it's settled then. We agree to disagree :)

Isn't it nice to have a Christian forum and discuss things so beautifully?
 
when he finds out what life is all about without God he will come back.or be forced to inflict pain on the people he used to be a part of.
 
Rumely said:
I've gone back and forth on this issue many times, because I've heard so many good arguments from both sides. I think sometimes a christian who has truly given his or her life to Christ can become angry or frustrated with God and go through a period of rebellion without necessarily losing their salvation. I think many times God is more patient and gracious than we would expect. These people usually come back to God when they become more mature, come to have more insight, know God better, or come to the end of themselves. Were they unsaved during that time? Would they have gone to hell if they had died during that period? I doubt it, but on the other hand, it is a dangerous thing to presume upon God's Grace, seeing the tremendous price at which it was bought.

If someone who, as far as we can tell, genuinely gave their life to Christ decides at some point that they absolutely do not want to spend eternity with God and want nothing to do with Him, I can't see God forcing that person to be in Heaven. Was that person genuinely saved to begin with? Only God really knows.

One thought occurred to me while thinking about this: I am far more concerned about a person who completely disregards God than I am about a person who expends the time and energy to be angry with God. The angry person is still trying to come to terms with God and thus has some kind of relationship with Him.
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Thanks Rumely! I REALLY like this, and I must say I REALLY agree!

God's patience is much greater than any rebellion we could ever throw at Him. He doesn't toss us to hell at the first sign of trouble.

I've been VERY angry with God before; even to the point that I didn't want to talk to Him, and I didn't want Him talking to me. BUT! He NEVER left my side.

I would wake up every morning with this thought in my heart, "I am still angry with God, and I don't want to talk to Him."

I did that for a very long time after my sister passed away, but God NEVER left me. He understood my hurt, and He understood my anger.

Finally after MONTHS and MONTHS of NOT wanting to speak to God I woke up one morning and said out loud, "I am still mad at you God, but I don't want to be." That was the whole prayer, and I went on about my business. I didn't fall on my knees or my face in agonizing repentance. I very simply and very quietly stated the truth to Him, and that was the beginning of my healing.

If I would have died in that anger I do not believe God would have sent me to hell. He knew all along that I didn't want to be mad at Him. He knew all along I was fighting pain and disappointment. He knew all along EXACTLY what I was going through and why. He knew all along my heart, and He NEVER gave up on me; even if it seemed I had given up on Him.

"O give thanks unto the LORD; for He is good; for His mercy endures forever" (1 Chronicles 16:34).

And guess what folks . . . FOREVER means FOR-EVER!


praisepyp.gif
 
Hey folks... I saw this discussion and thought I would participate.

Its an interesting question and made me think about Judas and what Jesus said about him.

John 17:12
While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Judas was one of the disciples of course and knew Jesus, yet he betrayed Jesus... Jesus said he was doomed to destruction...so, was Judas someone who knew Jesus and turned his back on him and lost his salvation.. if so, then I guess the answer to the initial question would be yes, a saved man can be lost.

However, did Judas really believe that Jesus was the Son of God? He saw all the miracles Jesus did, he would have know that Jesus is not like any other man he has ever known.. but who did he think Jesus was? Was he ever saved?

Besides this thought, to me, when someone KNOWS God, I would think it would be very difficult to deny him and decide you no longer want him to be a part of your life. I know regardless of anything, I would never want to be on the opposite side of God and would never want Him out of my life.
 
Nicky_uk said:
However, did Judas really believe that Jesus was the Son of God? He saw all the miracles Jesus did, he would have know that Jesus is not like any other man he has ever known.. but who did he think Jesus was? Was he ever saved?
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Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
John 13:26-27

I'd like to emphasize that only after Judas ate the bread, that Satan entered his heart. So meaning, when Judas became an Apostle and was able to make miracles, Satan was not in his heart. Judas believed in our Lord Jesus Christ.

That's it, that's all I want to add :)
 
Michael Collum said:
(good to see you again!) Also remember John that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was not given until Pentecost .
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That's a good point . Also while pondering this , I thought Judas did love the Lord but his love of money was more consuming as don't forget he was the one who held the purse and was also robbing from it .because Jesus exposed him when he was talking about Mary who used the expensive perfume that he said the money could have been used by the poor . , with out any intension of such a thing . He was the one who went out and traded our Saviour for 30 pieces of silver . Judas loved mammon more that God .
 
i wasn't reall advocating for Judas (though that can be a fun conversation from time to time) but more that making salvation arguments from pre-pentecost discourses .. can be a little shaky on the theological side of things .
 
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