What if my children were serial killers. What if they decided to kill others for no other reason than just because they wanted to.
Would they still be beautiful?
Learning Genesis
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What if my children were serial killers. What if they decided to kill others for no other reason than just because they wanted to.
Would they still be beautiful?
This is an important question and I can definitely see why you ask it. Your children's actions would not be beautiful if they did that, but if I was looking at them from God's perspective, yes he would hate the sin but he also would want them truly changed (which can only happen through salvation) to be the beautiful individuals he wants them to be. Nevertheless He would want them to do this because they chose to, not because He forced them, for true love of God, others, and self can only happen when someone is willing.
Did you know that Paul the Apostle who a lot of the New Testament was written through used to persecute and kill Christians? Before God he was a murdering man. After experiencing God he became zealous for saving people. It was God's love that changed him. God gave him love where he had none.
Did you ever read my post a couple of pages back. I know it was long, but I wanted to introduce you to the concepts of why I say what I do. God's love causes me to have true love for others.
We will agree to differ then. If someone has been proven / admits to murder then they are of no benefit to mankind. Whatever they then choose to do (i.e. convert to Christianity) is hypocrisy at its finest. Mitspa mentioned a while back that he used to convert people in penitentionaries if I recall. He said how easy it was and that he was going to do the same to me (the description he used was 'to break me'). It didn't work in my case but I can imagine how easy it would be to 'break' a 'lifer' to move to God. Lets see now, I shot and killed 4 people in a gang fight, it was witnessed and I am jailed for life, oh whats that you say? If I accept God into my life he will forgive all my sins and welcome me into heaven when my worthless body finally gives up? Yes please, I'll take that option thank you very much, where do I sign up for daily prayer meetings? Take a look at the official statistics of the Federal Bureau of Prisons and see how many atheists are locked up.
Someone answered before when I mentioned this and said along the lines of 'they may say they are believers but are not true believers'. What? So not only do I not agree with you, now I have no idea whether someone is a 'true' christian or just a fake one. What are the signs to look for so I know I am talking to a genuine christian? Is it just based on their past behaviour perhaps?
And I'm pretty sure that the majority of these scum who are locked up for life DO actually believe in God which is the worrying thing, they probably spend more of their free time praying than any other portion of christian society so they WILL be accepted by God according to my understanding. Why on earth would I want to go to heaven and join up with these worthless specimens?
What do you actually tell a child to convince them that a mass murderer who is christian is just as welcome in Gods kingdom as they are? Seriously, WHAT do you tell them?
I will try to read through your post if you actually look up the Federal Bureau statistics for prisoners and tell me what you see. And try to look at it objectively instead of dismissing those figures out of hand please.
I can't answer the question you ask. Maybe you would rather spend eternity in a hell of your own choosing away from everyone.
An existence devoid of compassion and mercy, an existence where you will have plenty of time to contemplate your attitude toward other people who just don't measure up to your standards just as you yourself will have consistently failed to measure up to God's standard.
As for what to tell children, I think you are selling children short. Children are the most trusting and forgiving of us all.
1Co 14:20. Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.Kjv
One of the crims being crucified alongside Jesus was repentant and turned to Jesus for forgiveness...he got it.
Paul perhaps foresaw your question...maybe.
1Cor 15:53. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
Serial killers, rapists etc if...IF they repent will at the last day, at the resurrection be raised incorruptible, though they were formerly living in corruption. So there will be no low lifers in the new Kingdom, those who continue in rebellion will instead be shut out to wallow in their self righteousness and hatred of God and man.
Many who accept "an altar call" are not saved (you shall know them by their fruits)...the fewer that are will become transformed as a person and this is a good thing by any standard (psychologists would agree as would departments of corrections)...it shows by God they were brought to guilt/shame recognition of their sin and now are accountable (they will never murder again). That does not excuse them from the consequence of their act here (in this world)...the genuinely "saved" individual is a new creature...the old murderous man is now Biblically dead already (judged and condemned by God)...
I can totally see your position because when I believed this chemical accident life was all there is I saw no sense to it either but once I realized I also had broken immutable laws, there was a price to pay (a just consequence) I began to realize the meaning of this grace. No one is excused my friend...but many are transformed into something other. Even "a child" will eventually break one of God's immutable laws and also be justifiably condemned to suffer the penalty of eternal separation from the source that meets ones needs....even that person, if they do not repent (metanaeo - to change the mind) will end up lord of a kingdom of one in a place of utter darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth...
To die having rejected or hating God and all He would provide is sad...you get your way...the place you enter into is such a place where He is not and where nothing He would have provided is there...imagine...
You are part of this order of creation...your soul will not cease to exist...you will be in absolute darkness like before there was light (because He created that) amidst the burning chaos of the as yet unformed beginning...needs will never again be met...no water ever yet desire...no touch because no body formed by Him...no fellowship with any other (that was His idea)...and worse, and all as a result of your own personal choice....and yet you never cease to exist and are ever aware of the true nature of the reality you insisted on having...a reality free of this G-O-D and the knowledge of Him...
I weep for you Tubby...and for your children if you cause them to go there...
Paul
You read Luke 15:11-32 with them, and talk about the "good" brother's reaction?
Good point Roads but I think you will have to clarify what you mean for Tubby's sake....some things are spiritually discerned and he has no such capacity.
I am going to answer your post, but can you send me a direct link to what you want me to look at first. Thank you.
You will know them by a CHANGED LIFE!
NOT the words said but by the actions of actually DOING!
Tubby, friend, what these people are telling you is true, I hope you will stop and listen to them.
Tubby, the God you don't believe exists has a set of rules, and we have all broken them, His rules are spiritual, one of them says if you are even angry with someone you are guilty of murder, now, think about it, how many times have you lost your temper, been angry with someone, ...that makes you a mass murderer according to the rule, and that disqualifies you for going to Heaven and qualifies you for going to Hell to be in the same place for ever with those that have actually committed the act, ...no difference, you are just as guilty as they are.
That is the beauty of Heaven, all of those who will be there are just as guilty as the others, we have all broken the rules, we are all sinners, but we read in the Bible that God paid the penalty for our sin which allows us to by declared, not just not guilty, but EXONERATED, as if we had never committed any sin, then we read once we are there we won't remember our past lives, come with us and you won't know who the other mass murderers are, ...no one will.
Here is a list of the rules, please carefully read them,
1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make to yourselves any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.You shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them. For I Jehovah your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and fourth generation of those that hate me,
and showing mercy to thousands of those that love Me and keep My commandments.
3. You shall not take the name of Jehovah your God in vain. For Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that takes His name in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is the Sabbath of Jehovah your God. You shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger within your gates.
For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore Jehovah blessed the Sabbath day, and sanctified it.
5. Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long upon the land which Jehovah your God gives you.
6. You shall not kill.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is your neighbor's.
Remember Tubby, not only are these rules physical, but they are spiritual.
Physical,
Have you ever stolen anything, even just a paper clip or a piece of paper from work? .....Then you have stolen.
Have you ever repeated gossip?, Then you are guilty of character assignation, you are a murderer.
Spiritual
Have you ever checked out a woman other than you wife? Then you have committed adultery.
Have you ever wanted something your neighbor has? Then you are guilty of coveting.
So think about it Tubby, we know you are guilty of breaking these rules because we have all broken them too, you don't want to be in Heaven with as mass murderer, but you are talking to many here.
Take some time to make a honest, careful examination of your life as compared to these rules and then come back and tell us you are not guilty.
Dear friend, I have to go to work, but if you do examine your life with these rules and come back with a guilty verdict, there are many here that can help you.
In His Love,
Gene
Tubby, the God you don't believe exists has a set of rules, and we have all broken them, His rules are spiritual, one of them says if you are even angry with someone you are guilty of murder, now, think about it, how many times have you lost your temper, been angry with someone, ...that makes you a mass murderer according to the rule, and that disqualifies you for going to Heaven and qualifies you for going to Hell to be in the same place for ever with those that have actually committed the act, ...no difference, you are just as guilty as they are.
That is the beauty of Heaven, all of those who will be there are just as guilty as the others, we have all broken the rules, we are all sinners, but we read in the Bible that God paid the penalty for our sin which allows us to by declared, not just not guilty, but EXONERATED, as if we had never committed any sin, then we read once we are there we won't remember our past lives, come with us and you won't know who the other mass murderers are, ...no one will.
Here is a list of the rules, please carefully read them,
1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make to yourselves any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.You shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them. For I Jehovah your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and fourth generation of those that hate me,
and showing mercy to thousands of those that love Me and keep My commandments.
3. You shall not take the name of Jehovah your God in vain. For Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that takes His name in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is the Sabbath of Jehovah your God. You shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger within your gates.
For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore Jehovah blessed the Sabbath day, and sanctified it.
5. Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long upon the land which Jehovah your God gives you.
6. You shall not kill.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is your neighbor's.
Remember Tubby, not only are these rules physical, but they are spiritual.
Physical,
Have you ever stolen anything, even just a paper clip or a piece of paper from work? .....Then you have stolen.
Have you ever repeated gossip?, Then you are guilty of character assignation, you are a murderer.
Spiritual
Have you ever checked out a woman other than you wife? Then you have committed adultery.
Have you ever wanted something your neighbor has? Then you are guilty of coveting.
So think about it Tubby, we know you are guilty of breaking these rules because we have all broken them too, you don't want to be in Heaven with as mass murderer, but you are talking to many here.
Take some time to make a honest, careful examination of your life as compared to these rules and then come back and tell us you are not guilty.
Dear friend, I have to go to work, but if you do examine your life with these rules and come back with a guilty verdict, there are many here that can help you.
In His Love,
Gene
Huntingteckel
Inactive
This may have already been mentioned but Moses was a murderer and I feel he benefited mankind quite a bit.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...ists-its-a-lot-smaller-than-we-ever-imagined/
Ignore the fact it is an Atheist blog. The data was procided by the U.S. dept of Justice.
Then that rule is wrong in my opinion. Clearly I am not a murderer and to equate being angry wth someone as the same as murder is ludicrous.
If you ran the border control of a country according to those rules (of Heaven), but applied them to the living it would descend into chaos and would soon resemble whatever you think Hell is.
Here is a list of the rules, please carefully read them,
That is quoted by many different religions, it is a basic tenet of all Gods so I suppose it is a rule but contradicts the very same rule of every other God who supposedly said it. I am definately not guilty of this one.
Hardly a rule seeing as nobody has ever seen anything of heaven and God. Seems God has quite an appetite for revenge if he carries it on through 4 generations. Don't think I'm guilty here though.
I don't think I'm guilty of that one.
I'm guilty of this one, my work has a habit of requiring me on Sunday.
I'm OK with that.
I've never killed.
Not guilty.
Guilty.
Don't know.
Guilty, only with the house though.
OK, I'm guilty of that one.
I'm guilty but I am most definately not a murderer, whichever way you want to dress it up.
Yes I have but that does not equate to adultery, only in this ridiculous interpretation.
Clearly I'm guilty of a few but why would I want help with such trivial points? I don't understand why anyone would want to live their entire life thinking that they were born a sinner and almost every day they commit more sin and asking for forgiveness. That is NOT a healthy state of mind to be in believe me. I could never subject my children to torment like this, to put these thoughts in their mind would not leave room for them to grow healthily mentally.
This is how you think and that's your perogative, you are as unable to see how my mind works as I am yours.
Although I have always been anti statistic (they can be inaccurate, rigged, results could vary from day to day and group to group etc.) I will answer this as if these are accurate statistics because this is definitely an observation and statistics that should be discussed.
First, there are many in jail who say they are Christians who do not believe anything Christian, as you have already stated above. This is a large group. I meet people like this all the time. They were raised in church, but never came to true salvation, and so they are Christians by association. That is they identify with the group, even though they don't believe what the group holds. Now obviously believers can disagree on different doctrines, but the one thing that makes up all believers is the gospel (what Jesus did for them by dying on the cross and being raised from the dead). Many people call themselves Christians, yet don't believe the gospel. Some didn't have real faith or understanding of the gospel when asking for salvation or they believe that by being good they will go to heaven (instead of believing on God's righteous work) or others have different beliefs like God takes everyone to heaven.
As far as who are the true believers, well God is the one who knows who are the real believers, but as Brother Paul wrote, the bible says, "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16). What are the fruits. "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,23 meekness, temperance" (Galatians 5:22-23). "for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light 9(for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth)" (Ephesians 5:9). However, every believer is being sanctified (learning to walk more and more from God's Spirit rather than self) so some believers may be walking in the fruit of the Spirit of God more than others as they learn more to submit to God and his goodness in His Spirit.
Back to the jail thing (sorry I am mixing both responses because they relate). The second group of those jailed are those who believed the gospel, who have fallen away by listening to the troubles in the world. (This is who you are talking about).
Then there are probably some who are there innocently in jail (probably a small percentage if so).
And then there are those who realizing the sinfulness of their own selves and their inability to control themselves (which is why they are in jail) turn to God out of desperation wanting God to change them from the vile selves they know themselves to be. Often those who come to God this way are dramatically changed because they realize they have to be fully dependent on God, knowing they can't change by their own will even if they want to, so they are readily willing to rely on God and his power and when they hear the gospel, they instantly have faith and believe.
Those who experience a dramatic change upon accepting Christ as their savior can be so different that upon going into jail as a mass murderer they are changed into the most loving and caring people around. That is what God's power can do that to people. Apostle Paul was dramatically changed to a completely different person. He was a zealous persecutor of Christians, but after his conversion he was a zealous defender of the gospel. Paul grieved for what he had done, but there was no way to change the earthly consequences of his past. He was forgiven, but couldn't bring the people he killed back to life. The bible says with Paul speaking, "For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God" (1 Corinthians 15:9). Nevertheless God turned bad into good.
What else can God do? Every sin no matter how small causes death and destruction whether we realize it of not. "For the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).
I noticed that your response to Just Passing Thru. I do not in any way think that Just Passing Thru takes light of murder. What that scripture is showing however ("I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment"[Matthew 5:22]) is that every sin is way more devastating than any of us would naturally think. God who is perfect can't commune with sin or he would be sinful. God has never sinned, ever. And even what we think may be a minor sin is so devastating that it separates us from God eternally because it kills us spiritually. One sin is all that is necessary for the perfect to become imperfect. If God had heaven with those with sin in them, it wouldn't be perfect, but it would be just like here with murder, lying, hatred, anger. Often murder starts out as anger. Murder, anger, greed, hatred, covetousness are all evil energies. Every manifestation is an energy. Every word is a manifestation. God's plan is for an eternity with only his loving and perfect characteristics and manifestations in it.
So how can a murderer go to heaven and not be bringing evil manifestation with them. There is only one way and it is the same way for all of us. When God paid the penalty for our sin, he basically took all our sins on himself as if he had done them. Those who accept God's payment for their sins which includes not only a person's past sins but their current and future sins as well have the Spirit of Christ indwell them. The believer's spirit is made alive in God's Spirit and is seen through God's righteousness which is now in them, rather than their own righteousness which is actually sin laden. The believer by faith not only gets the free gift of salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but they are raised as part of Christ's spiritual body, thus their spirit is one with God's righteousness spiritual body. Again this is by faith.
I know the spiritual body may sound odd to you, but if you were to think of all manifestations having frequencies and the spiritual body being on a different frequency than the physical body, maybe it would make more sense to you.
God had an original plan for everyone which was good and instead of destroying someone, God wants the person saved and living in His righteous in Jesus by faith, so they can be what He made them to be, a loving and perfect being that He can love and communicate with.
So the evil of the murderer with it's evil thoughts and actions and manifestations does not exist anymore because the person in Christ is not in their own self, but they live in God and are seen through Him. The murderer was nailed to the cross by faith in Jesus. With true faith the person is changed. So I would tell a child that only the righteous go to heaven. That is those who are righteous because they live in God now, not in themselves.
I hope I didn't repeat to much, because I was answering more than one thread at the same time.
Ludicrous?? No not at all. Be honest here...would you/could you possibly deliberately kill someone you like/love? No? Then ask yourself what your attitude toward someone would have to be in order that you would deliberately kill them.. Of course you would never do such a thing we know, but just supposing.
Can't say I (or most ) can agree with your border control picture.
"1. You shall have no other gods before Me."
Actually Tubby Tubby, you are guilty as charged on this one too.
Every human being has built in a need/desire/tendency to worship a god in one form or another. You have been told already that back of the physical lies the spiritual. 'You are to have no gods before me' is not talking about not having 'little fat Buddhas' sitting over your fireplace mantle or on the coffee table, it is about placing anything whatsoever in a place of importance over and above that of the one true God.
Again the spiritual is back of the physical.
Roads recommended you read the parable of the 'prodigal son'..Assuming you have, consider the son's future fortunes...He squanders his inheritance and is broke. He marries and has a few children..they are broke...and so on how many generations might it take to restire 'his' family fortunes?...3? 4? You getting the picture?
"4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is the Sabbath of Jehovah your God. You shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger within your gates.
For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore Jehovah blessed the Sabbath day, and sanctified it."
Come now! Even if you didn't have to work on what you think is the sabbath, can you honestly say that you would keep that sabbath set aside to attend to the the worship of the Lord God?
Even in our legal systems if you break one law and are convicted, you'll have a criminal record and in many cases that would exclude you from employment in many areas, or even social privileges.
James 2:8. If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
James 2:9. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
James 2:10. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
James 2:11. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
So you see Tubby Tubby, you have confessed to breaking a few of the commandments so you are guilty of all.
What can you do about that?
Because one joins the club of Churchianity or because their parents were allegedly "Christian" does not make one a child of the living God anymore than hanging out with a bunch of people that fix their own cars makes you an auto mechanic...
Matt 7:22. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
These people are not muslims,they are not atheists, they are not orthodox Jews, They are and can only be Church goers who are not really saved. They are not doing the will of the Father (God).
Atheists and the rest of the bunch would obviously not be doing anything in the name of Jesus.
These people are not muslims,they are not atheists, they are not orthodox Jews, They are and can only be Church goers who are not really saved. They are not doing the will of the Father (God).
Atheists and the rest of the bunch would obviously not be doing anything in the name of Jesus.
Tubby, my man, there are lots of rules that you don't believe are just, but you obey them because of the consequences, are you old enough to remember when the speed limit was 70mph, enacted for fuel economy, well today we have automobiles that get 3x more than the those of of the '60s and '70s, but the law is still in place, we are surrounded by unjust laws made by and for corrupt politicians, but we suffer the consequences if we break or disregard them just the same.
So then, the God you don't chose to believe in has made these laws, whether we like it or not and we have all broken every one, ...many times.
Now....., your reply has condemned you, ...you say you don't believe there is a God, but you also said you are guilty of breaking some of the rules, if you truly believed in your heart there wasn't a God who has a set of rules, then you would of never felt condemned about breaking any of them in your conscience, for you see, the Bible isn't just another book, it's the only Book that has ever been written that is alive, and you have just experience it's supernatural power, ...how could some symbols in black and white written in cyber space have convicted your conscience so that you write and tell us what is in your heart? ...I am guilty!
My friend, today, you have indicted yourself, ...let me give you the prognosis, what guilt you felt when you read the list, how ever small it might have been, is going to grow like a cancer, the rules you have admitted to breaking, the guilt will seem to grow larger and larger, the ones you say you have never broken, you know, the ones you say are ridiculous, those you have pushed out of your mind, your conscience will start bringing them back to you remembrance, and the guilt of those will seem to grow larger and larger too, ...until one of two things will happen, you will break and either turn to Jesus for salvation or reject the salvation He is offering you and go insane, ...history (and this Forum) is/are full of people in these two categories, ...it's dangerous playing around on a Christian Forum, you might think it's fun to debate with God's children, but in reality when we tell you the Truth (and I know it's striking deep inside of you, because when you have read our posts about the Cross, the Blood, Salvation, or the Gospel, ...you are silenced because your heart is pricked, your conscience is reeling, there is a good read on this subject called The Hounds of Heaven), and when you do come back you change the subject............, I told you man, I have already walked in your shoes down the same path.
So friend, since you believe in operating in fairness for you and your children, let them find their own way, make their own decisions, come to their own conclusions, ...may I suggest you take your own advice, in the spirit of fairness, take the night off, stop and reflect on what we have been telling you and then just ask from your heart (first write on a piece of paper I'm a atheist so you can't/won't forget) and then ask the God you don't believe is real or exists, ...if He is real and exists, ...in the spirit of fairness, just ask Him, what do you have to lose?
In His Love,
Gene
So then, the God you don't chose to believe in has made these laws, whether we like it or not and we have all broken every one, ...many times.
Now....., your reply has condemned you, ...you say you don't believe there is a God, but you also said you are guilty of breaking some of the rules, if you truly believed in your heart there wasn't a God who has a set of rules, then you would of never felt condemned about breaking any of them in your conscience, for you see, the Bible isn't just another book, it's the only Book that has ever been written that is alive, and you have just experience it's supernatural power, ...how could some symbols in black and white written in cyber space have convicted your conscience so that you write and tell us what is in your heart? ...I am guilty!
My friend, today, you have indicted yourself, ...let me give you the prognosis, what guilt you felt when you read the list, how ever small it might have been, is going to grow like a cancer, the rules you have admitted to breaking, the guilt will seem to grow larger and larger, the ones you say you have never broken, you know, the ones you say are ridiculous, those you have pushed out of your mind, your conscience will start bringing them back to you remembrance, and the guilt of those will seem to grow larger and larger too, ...until one of two things will happen, you will break and either turn to Jesus for salvation or reject the salvation He is offering you and go insane, ...history (and this Forum) is/are full of people in these two categories, ...it's dangerous playing around on a Christian Forum, you might think it's fun to debate with God's children, but in reality when we tell you the Truth (and I know it's striking deep inside of you, because when you have read our posts about the Cross, the Blood, Salvation, or the Gospel, ...you are silenced because your heart is pricked, your conscience is reeling, there is a good read on this subject called The Hounds of Heaven), and when you do come back you change the subject............, I told you man, I have already walked in your shoes down the same path.
So friend, since you believe in operating in fairness for you and your children, let them find their own way, make their own decisions, come to their own conclusions, ...may I suggest you take your own advice, in the spirit of fairness, take the night off, stop and reflect on what we have been telling you and then just ask from your heart (first write on a piece of paper I'm a atheist so you can't/won't forget) and then ask the God you don't believe is real or exists, ...if He is real and exists, ...in the spirit of fairness, just ask Him, what do you have to lose?
In His Love,
Gene
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Maybe this illustration will help.
I used to be really into learning about natural health and there was a real study done on the mass killings in the schools. They found out that 90 something percent (high 90's but I can't remember the exact number) of the people who did the killings were all on antidepressants or being weaned off antidepressants. It was found out that one of the major companies that sold these drugs did there own in house study on them and found that they affected the brain in such a way as to causes homicidal or suicidal tendencies in people who took them. Nevertheless they covered up the study and sold the drugs for their profit.
From a spiritual standpoint we see sin causing great destruction. There were those in the company who would make great profit so they did greedy, deceiving acts. There were those who did the tests and knew the results, yet didn't reveal them even though they knew the consequences of people taking them. There were parents that put their trust in a corrupt industry, even though drugs usually come with some type of warning, often serious side effect warnings. There were the takers of the drugs who killed innocent people.
If the greedy company owners had faith in God they wouldn't have felt the need to market something dangerous and would have put their efforts into creating beneficial remedies. If the test givers had faith they would have told the truth knowing how evil it was to give out the drugs. If the parents had faith they would have either asked God to heal them or if they didn't have enough faith for that they would have at least asked God for natural remedies or alternatives to drugs that usually cause harm in other areas of the body (God did put things on earth to help with ailments and diseases), and if the takers of the drugs had faith they would have gone to God for their emotional problems instead of to drugs.
What I am trying to show is that sin is a greater problem than we realize. Lack of faith interconnects with lack of faith to form some kind of web. Do you think it would be just for God to just punish the murderers in this case?
We could make this same type of evil web on lesser issues. The greedy school kid grabs the candy from someone and eats it. The one keeping watch over the playground is tired and doesn't want to deal with anymore kid problems that day, so she ignores it. The kid who had their candy taken from them is angry shouting negative things. The younger kids standing by begin to imitate the anger speaking like the one kid. They then hear some negative rap music which reinforces the same type of angry attitude and society and circumstances reinforce it as well until they grow up and harm someone from anger since it has been reinforced in their attitudes for years (you did say emotions are learned behaviors).
The web of sin is so great that only God can get through it with love. If he just destroys he has become one with the web. If by love he pulls people out of the web, He gives them freedom.
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