Learning Genesis

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TubbyTubby said:
What I mean is that, several times on this forum when I have mentioned accepted theories I have been told basically that the word of man cannot be trusted, or words to that effect.

I don't mean men in 2014 talking about the darkness that Thallus mentions.

You are eager to accept Thallus as writing fact because he writes what you want to hear. You will reject modern theory, saying it is not fact. You have no more reason to believe Thallus than you do Richard Dawkings yet you choose the former and reject the latter only because it is what you want to hear.

I don't see how you can argue that point, there is no argument.

Why is Thallus' work fact and Darwins is not fact? How is Thallus proven and Darwin not proven?

I'm not questioning Thallus (although I might) but simply your biased acceptance of what you eagerly take as fact and what you quickly dismiss.
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No Tubby that was not it at all...Thallus is just one of three additional historical accountings and there are none that dispute the event...and what on earth does Richard Dawkins have to do with this? I never mentioned or said I rejected Dawkins perspective on this occurrence of afternoon sudden darkness...I did not even know he has an opinion...

Where did you get that and how on earth could you twist that from anything I have said?

What "modern theory" about the darkness that happened during the crucifixion did I reject? You only kept repeating information about a Solar eclipse (which cannot happen on the day of a full moon as you know)...

Paul
 
Yes He did and as we approach Easter, what a great miracle to study.
What great Love to remember.
 
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Dawkins has remained quiet on the Crucifixion Darkness :cautious: .......Probably doesn't want to make a total fool of himself. (y)
 
I have read Dawkins and I never saw it mentioned (this being a man who believes life most likely started on the back of Crystals, and concedes the possibility of spermeating aliens for how it came to earth...any evidence at all that indicates either of these? NOt one iota, zero, zilch, totally fictional assumption-ism)
 
Brother Paul said:
No Tubby that was not it at all...Thallus is just one of three additional historical accountings and there are none that dispute the event...and what on earth does Richard Dawkins have to do with this? I never mentioned or said I rejected Dawkins perspective on this occurrence of afternoon sudden darkness...I did not even know he has an opinion...

Where did you get that and how on earth could you twist that from anything I have said?

What "modern theory" about the darkness that happened during the crucifixion did I reject? You only kept repeating information about a Solar eclipse (which cannot happen on the day of a full moon as you know)...

Paul
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Dawkings was an example, but not an example of refuting crucifiction darkness. It was an example of a mans word that you (presumably) reject. I could have used Hawking, Hitchens, Bohr, Higgs, Penrose, Gamow instead.

My point was you readily reject mans word if it doesn't suit your belief and accept mans word from centuries ago because it does suit your belief. Your criteria for accepting mans word as fact is based purely on whether it backs up your faith and not on how factual valid it might be.

I'm not trying to twist your words.
 
Apparently this is hard to take in, but some of us have heard from the source-the creator and nothing He has told us will be wrong 100 years from now. Like the Newtonian universe to the Einstein one. OK - 300 years. Hawking had to back down when he said that black holes destroyed information. They call the Higgs-Bosun particle the "God particle". Bohr's model (of the atom) has been long supplanted but remains in basic, valid - but nothing he says declaims God. Cough - you really want to include Christopher Hitchens in this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens . Penrose was aligned with Hawking on black hole theory and sorry - Nobel prize and all but not proven. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Penrose. And I am assuming you mean the Gamow of Hyperbaric fame? Again - no disclaimers against God, altho I understand Michael Jackson used it for whatever. You keep spelling Dawkins wrong. In none of these scientists views, with the exception of Dawkins and Hawking , do you find any disclaimer of God. Newton studied the bible far more than anything physics and was into alchemy to boot. I have looked into science and I'm rational (well up for grabs :)) and you have not mentioned one scientific fact that disproves God's existence.

Because there is none.
 
I must be extremely bad at making my point it seems.

I am not trying to make a point about disproving God. I am not putting those names forward for discussion or whether you agree with their opinions or not. I am not introducing them for any specific theory or opinion, only that they HAVE ONE. I am not saying that I agree with everything that these men have said.

However, you have pretty much confirmed my statement by your unnerving eagerness to ridicule these men. The reason you do that is because they don't agree with your faith. The reason you agree with a MANS word from 2000 years ago (and none of which are available to read) is because it backs up your faith. No other reason than that, your decision to accept a mans word over another mans word is ENTIRELY based upon your original belief.

That is not a rational way to filter information that is presented to you because your filter has been half blocked up by your faith before you started.
 
Skimming again? I didn't ridicule all the names you mentioned. I'm a gal with my feet on the ground. YOU are missing the point - I have heard from the creator...period. I know the names you have pronounced, I decided for myself. My God doesn't restrict my enquiring mind, nor does He command me to ignore reality. Apparently your mind does. It's a simple experiment really - ask God yourself.
 
A very long time ago there was a Greek guy named Pythagoras. Strange name really, but he had an angle on geometry that is worthy of passing comment.
He claimed that a square if constructed on the hypotenuse of a triangle would equal the sum total of any squares that might happen to attach them selves to the other two sides. He is reputed to have lived about 2 1/2K years ago, and as I recollect reading ,he spent a good deal of his time locked up in the slammer, though this might not be true.
Now why should we put any stock in the ideas he had? Why should we spend much valuable time studying Pythagorean triads? Why should we believe what he wrote? Could it be that we have given some time to testing what he said and found it to be true?
In the same way, we should listen to Jesus Christ's words and test them out.....not dismiss them out of hand because we don't want to be indebted to Him for our salvation.
 
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TubbyTubby said:
Dawkings was an example, but not an example of refuting crucifiction darkness. It was an example of a mans word that you (presumably) reject. I could have used Hawking, Hitchens, Bohr, Higgs, Penrose, Gamow instead.

My point was you readily reject mans word if it doesn't suit your belief and accept mans word from centuries ago because it does suit your belief. Your criteria for accepting mans word as fact is based purely on whether it backs up your faith and not on how factual valid it might be.

I'm not trying to twist your words.
Click to expand...

That would be incorrect Tubby. I've read a lot of these guys and I am not a Biblical literalist in the sense you may think. My mind is opened to the various views of many things in the Bible (like the use of the word Yom for day or earth sometimes being used for matter as opposed to this planet). Some is metaphor, some simile, some hyperbole, some poetry, etc.!

Some things these guys have said are mere opinion (as most would be first to admit, except Dawkins perhaps because like Gould before Gould opted out of gradualism for Punctuated Equilibrium, he is the new Darwinian bulldog), and other things they have said are brilliant theories (not established facts), and still others are irrefutable facts. I cut my early scientific teeth on George Gamow! Higgs for example is fascinating...but the theories popular scientific media attaches to him (like discovering the God particle) is hogwash as he never postulated any such thing. In fact I think the LHC is one of the best examples of the need for intelligent design that has come forward since Miller/Urey.

My criteria for accepting a man's word is seeing it actually established by fact not provisional interpretation of evidence or interpretation of data to fit the preconceived conclusion. Finally, I find the position that because someone has not personally experienced or observed something it does not exist, in the light of millions who have experienced or observed it, is untenable and the furthest from scientific one can get. For example I never knew, experienced, or observed that there was a Shek Tau in Canton, China, I could ASSUME at that time that it MIGHT NOT be real, but could never conclude there is no Shek Tau, because there were people who claimed there was and that they were there. Then I met Mee King Lau, who came from there, and hung out with her son Hing Sem...now I could take your position which is "well just because all of you CLAIM there IS a Shek Tau, I have no reason to accept it is possible"...can't you see how such a position is most illogical?

See I would never dogmatically assume there is no life anywhere else in the Universe just because I PERSONALLY see no reason to consider the possibility. There very well could be regardless of my lack of observing it or my lack of experiencing it. TO me such a position is the epitome of unrecognized closed mindedness (not meaning to be insulting, just trying to inspire true objectivity, which demies no possibility until it is proven untrue...like Darwin's version of gradualism).
 
calvin said:
A very long time ago there was a Greek guy named Pythagoras. Strange name really, but he had an angle on geometry that is worthy of passing comment.
He claimed that a square if constructed on the hypotenuse of a triangle would equal the sum total of any squares that might happen to attach them selves to the other two sides. He is reputed to have lived about 2 1/2K years ago, and as I recollect reading ,he spent a good deal of his time locked up in the slammer, though this might not be true.
Now why should we put any stock in the ideas he had? Why should we spend much valuable time studying Pythagorean triads? Why should we believe what he wrote? Could it be that we have given some time to testing what he said and found it to be true?
In the same way, we should listen to Jesus Christ's words and test them out.....not dismiss them out of hand because we don't want to be indebted to Him for our salvation.
Click to expand...

Yes it is a valid point and no doubt the reason we accept the work of Pythagoras is because it is proven. There is tangible proof that is impossible to dismiss.

The difference between that and the words of God or Jesus is because it is inaccessible without prior faith, at least for me. If the words of the bible were to be proven and I could see that proof (without first needing faith that it were true) then I would have no choice other than to accept it as true. As far as I can tell, there is no means to test the bible in the same way as we can test Pythagoras.
 
Brother Paul said:
That would be incorrect Tubby. I've read a lot of these guys and I am not a Biblical literalist in the sense you may think. My mind is opened to the various views of many things in the Bible (like the use of the word Yom for day or earth sometimes being used for matter as opposed to this planet). Some is metaphor, some simile, some hyperbole, some poetry, etc.!

Some things these guys have said are mere opinion (as most would be first to admit, except Dawkins perhaps because like Gould before Gould opted out of gradualism for Punctuated Equilibrium, he is the new Darwinian bulldog), and other things they have said are brilliant theories (not established facts), and still others are irrefutable facts. I cut my early scientific teeth on George Gamow! Higgs for example is fascinating...but the theories popular scientific media attaches to him (like discovering the God particle) is hogwash as he never postulated any such thing. In fact I think the LHC is one of the best examples of the need for intelligent design that has come forward since Miller/Urey.

My criteria for accepting a man's word is seeing it actually established by fact not provisional interpretation of evidence or interpretation of data to fit the preconceived conclusion. Finally, I find the position that because someone has not personally experienced or observed something it does not exist, in the light of millions who have experienced or observed it, is untenable and the furthest from scientific one can get. For example I never knew, experienced, or observed that there was a Shek Tau in Canton, China, I could ASSUME at that time that it MIGHT NOT be real, but could never conclude there is no Shek Tau, because there were people who claimed there was and that they were there. Then I met Mee King Lau, who came from there, and hung out with her son Hing Sem...now I could take your position which is "well just because all of you CLAIM there IS a Shek Tau, I have no reason to accept it is possible"...can't you see how such a position is most illogical?

See I would never dogmatically assume there is no life anywhere else in the Universe just because I PERSONALLY see no reason to consider the possibility. There very well could be regardless of my lack of observing it or my lack of experiencing it. TO me such a position is the epitome of unrecognized closed mindedness (not meaning to be insulting, just trying to inspire true objectivity, which demies no possibility until it is proven untrue...like Darwin's version of gradualism).
Click to expand...

There's an awful lot of things to think about here so I don't want to do it injustice by not giving it due consideration so I'll leave this till the weekend as I'm off out to have a few beers with friends in the sunshine right now.

There's also a lot of terminology here that I don't understand so I need to do some more learning.

I'm sure you'll remind me if I forget to reply to it all.
 
If the words of the bible were to be proven and I could see that proof (without first needing faith that it were true) then I would have no choice other than to accept it as true.

1) The darkness at noon which in fact occurred...

2) Ezekiel 26 tells us

3 Therefore thus says the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea cause his waves to come up. 4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. 5 It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, says the Lord God: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.

Now first it was attacked (a grand Phoenician city) and toppled by Nebuchadnezzar. He massacred all except for around 100 or so that escaped to an island fortress off their coast (then about a half mile out into the Mediterranean).

Centuries later, Alexander the Great fulfilled more of the prophecy. He had no navy so he had his armies physically build a causeway from the remains of the shattered never re-inhabited city all the way to the Island (his architect was named Diades)…scientists estimate they used millions of cubic feet of left over rubble…as a result Tyre was “scraped bare”…to this day Tyre has never been rebuilt. It literally became a place where fishermen dried their nets…

3) the bible said there were Hittites, Assyrians, Sargon, and many more (ever accused of being myth)

Just for three examples....words of once only the Bible...now established proved facts...
 
Brother Paul said:
If the words of the bible were to be proven and I could see that proof (without first needing faith that it were true) then I would have no choice other than to accept it as true.

1) The darkness at noon which in fact occurred...

2) Ezekiel 26 tells us

3 Therefore thus says the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea cause his waves to come up. 4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. 5 It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, says the Lord God: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.

Now first it was attacked (a grand Phoenician city) and toppled by Nebuchadnezzar. He massacred all except for around 100 or so that escaped to an island fortress off their coast (then about a half mile out into the Mediterranean).

Centuries later, Alexander the Great fulfilled more of the prophecy. He had no navy so he had his armies physically build a causeway from the remains of the shattered never re-inhabited city all the way to the Island (his architect was named Diades)…scientists estimate they used millions of cubic feet of left over rubble…as a result Tyre was “scraped bare”…to this day Tyre has never been rebuilt. It literally became a place where fishermen dried their nets…

3) the bible said there were Hittites, Assyrians, Sargon, and many more (ever accused of being myth)

Just for three examples....words of once only the Bible...now established proved facts...
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Paul, can you supply information on dates?
When was Ezekiel written?
When did Nebuchadnezzar sack Tyre ?
When did Alexander the great build a bridge out to the island sanctuary?
Tnx
 
calvin said:
Paul, can you supply information on dates?
When was Ezekiel written?
When did Nebuchadnezzar sack Tyre ?
When did Alexander the great build a bridge out to the island sanctuary?
Tnx
Click to expand...

Only generally...History tells us that Nebi attacked Tyre with a siege in his over all post Jerusalem captivity campaign so maybe 580 - 570? In E. A. Wallis Budge, Babylonian Life And History, p. 50, we hear that after the desstruction of Jerusalem and the carrying away of her king Zedekiah into captivity, Nebi took "all Palestine and Syria and the cities on the seacoast", which would include Tyre. This historian (who includes his references) says it fell after a siege of 13 years (586 - 13 years = 573 B.C.). Ezekiel is a Babylonian prophet...not that he was Babylonian but this is where he was when he received his visions so after 586 B.C. (when they were carried away from Jerusalem and area)...most say around 571 because he includes the destruction of Tyre but it could have been before that (as the Spirit is prophetic) but I would not be dogmatic. As far as Alexander's conquest we read about that in the works of the early historian Plutarch...Alexander only lived to be around 30 maybe 35 and allegedly died in 323 B.C. so before that but after his birth (obviously). A good source for references from the early historians can be found in David Chandler's, Alexander 334-323 B.C., p. 41...sorry I could not be more specific but ancient historical dating is rarely specific but close...hope this helped...the point beiing the final fulfillment do not come until over 200 years later...long after Ezekiel was dead. Proof of the prescient nature (thus outside the natural order) of scripture...
 
TubbyTubby said:
Yes it is a valid point and no doubt the reason we accept the work of Pythagoras is because it is proven. There is tangible proof that is impossible to dismiss.

The difference between that and the words of God or Jesus is because it is inaccessible without prior faith, at least for me. If the words of the bible were to be proven and I could see that proof (without first needing faith that it were true) then I would have no choice other than to accept it as true. As far as I can tell, there is no means to test the bible in the same way as we can test Pythagoras.
Click to expand...

Really? You would accept the Bible as truth, the Word of God IF you were shown that proof. Sorry, but I don't believe you.

I will now show you why I say that.

PREDICTED IN PREDICTION FULFILLED IN
855 BC: The prophet Elijah predicts Jezebel would be eaten by dogs upon her death in 841 BC
Jezreel. (1 Kings 21:23)– Jezebel is killed in Jezreel and dogs eat her body .
(2 Kings 9:36).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
760 BC: Amos predicts Israel would be restored as a nation and would never be uprooted 1948
again (Amos 9:15).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------732 BC: Isaiah predicts the Medo-Persian empire will conquer Babylon [Isaiah 13:17-18] 538 BC
and Babylon would become a wasteland.–Fulfilled in 538 BC when the Medes
took over Babylon and 275 BC when the Seleucids forced all of the inhabitants to
leave.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
732 BC: Isaiah says Egypt and Ethiopia would be conquered by Assyria (Isaiah 20:3-5).– 673-670 BC
Fulfilled ca. 673-670 BC when Assyria conquers the northeast African nations.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
701 BC: Isaiah claims Israel will be taken captive by the Babylonian empire (Isaiah 39).– 597 & 586 BC
Fulfilled ca. 597 & 586 BC: Babylon takes captives and sacks Jerusalem the
first time then totally destroys Jerusalem 10 years later.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
589 BC: Ezekiel tells about the fall of the great city Tyre, claiming that the Lord Various (6)
“will cause many nations to come up against thee,” (Ezekiel 26, 27).–
Fulfilled in 586-573 BC: Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon lays siege against city.
Fulfilled in 370s BC: a king of Cyprus conquers the city.
Fulfilled in 332 BC: Alexander the Great conquers the city.
Fulfilled in 315-316 BC: Antigonus, who served under Alexander, attacks and conquers the city.
Fulfilled in 1124: The city falls to the Crusaders.
Fulfilled in 1291: The city falls to the Muslim armies of the Mameluks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
543 BC: Daniel tells of a great Grecian king who would conquer the Persian empire but 330 BC
would have his kingdom divided four ways after his death (Daniel 8).–
Fulfilled in 330 BC when Alexander the Great defeats Persia and 281 BC after the
Greek generals who succeed Alexander reach an agreement after years of war to split the
kingdom four ways.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There we have just a few of exactly what you asked for. NOW what are you going to say about these?????
 
Major said:
Really? You would accept the Bible as truth, the Word of God IF you were shown that proof. Sorry, but I don't believe you.

I will now show you why I say that.

PREDICTED IN PREDICTION FULFILLED IN
855 BC: The prophet Elijah predicts Jezebel would be eaten by dogs upon her death in 841 BC
Jezreel. (1 Kings 21:23)– Jezebel is killed in Jezreel and dogs eat her body .
(2 Kings 9:36).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
760 BC: Amos predicts Israel would be restored as a nation and would never be uprooted 1948
again (Amos 9:15).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------732 BC: Isaiah predicts the Medo-Persian empire will conquer Babylon [Isaiah 13:17-18] 538 BC
and Babylon would become a wasteland.–Fulfilled in 538 BC when the Medes
took over Babylon and 275 BC when the Seleucids forced all of the inhabitants to
leave.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
732 BC: Isaiah says Egypt and Ethiopia would be conquered by Assyria (Isaiah 20:3-5).– 673-670 BC
Fulfilled ca. 673-670 BC when Assyria conquers the northeast African nations.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
701 BC: Isaiah claims Israel will be taken captive by the Babylonian empire (Isaiah 39).– 597 & 586 BC
Fulfilled ca. 597 & 586 BC: Babylon takes captives and sacks Jerusalem the
first time then totally destroys Jerusalem 10 years later.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
589 BC: Ezekiel tells about the fall of the great city Tyre, claiming that the Lord Various (6)
“will cause many nations to come up against thee,” (Ezekiel 26, 27).–
Fulfilled in 586-573 BC: Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon lays siege against city.
Fulfilled in 370s BC: a king of Cyprus conquers the city.
Fulfilled in 332 BC: Alexander the Great conquers the city.
Fulfilled in 315-316 BC: Antigonus, who served under Alexander, attacks and conquers the city.
Fulfilled in 1124: The city falls to the Crusaders.
Fulfilled in 1291: The city falls to the Muslim armies of the Mameluks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
543 BC: Daniel tells of a great Grecian king who would conquer the Persian empire but 330 BC
would have his kingdom divided four ways after his death (Daniel 8).–
Fulfilled in 330 BC when Alexander the Great defeats Persia and 281 BC after the
Greek generals who succeed Alexander reach an agreement after years of war to split the
kingdom four ways.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There we have just a few of exactly what you asked for. NOW what are you going to say about these?????
Click to expand...

Is that the top 10 list of biblical prophecies?

There are several mundane ways in which a prediction of the future can be fulfilled:

Retrodiction. The "prophecy" can be written or modified after the events fulfilling it have already occurred.

Vagueness. The prophecy can be worded in such a way that people can interpret any outcome as a fulfillment. Nostradomus's prophecies are all of this type. Vagueness works particularly well when people are religiously motivated to believe the prophecies.

Inevitability. The prophecy can predict something that is almost sure to happen, such as the collapse of a city. Since nothing lasts forever, the city is sure to fall someday. If it has not, it can be said that according to prophecy, it will.

Denial. One can claim that the fulfilling events occurred even if they have not. Or, more commonly, one can forget that the prophecy was ever made.

Self-fulfillment. A person can act deliberately to satisfy a known prophecy. There are no prophecies in the Bible that cannot easily fit into one or more of those categories.

In biblical times, prophecies were not simply predictions. They were warnings of what could or would happen if things did not change. They were meant to influence people's behavior. If the people heeded the prophecy, the events would not come to pass; Jonah 3 gives an example. A fulfilled prophecy was a failed prophecy, because it meant people did not heed the warning.

The Bible also contains failed prophecies, in the sense that things God said would happen did not. For example: Joshua said that God would, without fail, drive out the Jebusites and Canaanites, among others (Josh. 3:9-10). But those tribes were not driven out (Josh. 15:63, 17:12-13). Ezekiel said Egypt would be made an uninhabited wasteland for forty years (29:10-14), and Nebuchadrezzar would plunder it (29:19-20). Neither happened.
 
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