Learning Genesis

[God calls me Olivia]

4 This is the history[a] of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

I will assume here that we have gone back to the 6th day in Gen 1 26-27 as man had already been created?

"Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:21-22).

So as in the beginning God breathed life into Adam and Eve at the start so in the beginning of God's ministry through the disciples he breathed His spiritual life into them through breath and they received the true life of God by the Holy Spirit.

 

[calvin]

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

23 And Adam said:

“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”

Presumably God made all the animals in both sexes at the same time? Why would he then decide to make a man with functioning reproductive organs but nothing to mate with? The woman seems a bit of an after thought when I would of made them at the same time if I was him. One's no good without the other is it?

Luckily you are not Him!!
We are not told that the animals were created male and female simultaneously, we just assume...but were they?
We are given a more detailed account of the coming about of of Adam and Eve and for a very good reason. Instead of looking for a reason to jeer, we can look at all that is there to learn. Can you think of any reason why man should seek to procreate with woman and not the pet poodle? Can you think of any reason why women should be treated as man's equal and not breeding cattle?
Can you not see a solid foundation for our marriage laws (given by God through Moses) and for the building of nations in the creation narrative?
This and other things are what stands mankind apart from the animals. This is where it all started..this is our genesis.
It is all there if you will open our eyes and look.

 

[calvin]

1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

I struggle with this, a cunning snake is one thing but a cunning talking snake is not something I can get my head around at all.

To be honest Tubby Tubby, that is the least you are struggling with. The serpent (note the use of the definite article in the text) was very definitely not a snake as you seem fixated on believing. It had some other means of locomotion than using its ribs. Did it have legs? Did it have wings? We don't know, but as reasoning beings we can deduce that it was a specific creation, (and not a snake). It was a unique creature.....that should be obvious to even the most casual reader. It was a definitely identified creature not just one of several hundreds/thousands/millions.

 

[God calls me Olivia]

10 Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads. 11 The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one which skirts the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 And the gold of that land is good. Bdellium and the onyx stone are there. 13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one which goes around the whole land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is Hiddekel; it is the one which goes toward the east of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates.

Where is Havilah? I found several possible locations when I searched.

Is there any relevance to Gold and Onyx being mentioned so early in the bible?

Gold stands for God's promises are truth.

 

[God calls me Olivia]

The fall of man was when Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree though?

This was the same then as it is now. Choosing faith in God or choosing faith in the world (knowledge of good and evil) for Adam and Eve already knew good but it is the knowing of evil that brings distress, fear, hatred and all evil things. Without knowledge of this and only knowledge of good only good would have been acted upon.

It is the same now. The choice has always been between trusting God by faith or knowing evil (as I said before which is NOT LOVE) and trusting in it.

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear" (1 John 4:18).

The believer is one who has decided to trust in love for God is love and has shown His love to us by giving all He had for us by His suffering and death for us.

The believe is to set their recognition on God and act from that, not set their recognition on the world.

"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends" (John 15:13).

Yet Jesus called Judas friend (the one who betrayed Him).

Immediately Judas went to Jesus and said, "Hail, Rabbi!" and kissed Him. 50And Jesus said to him, "Friend, do what you have come for." Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him. (Matthew 26:49-50).

Judas showed who Jesus was by the kiss and Jesus knew what they were to do, yet he still called Judas friend for Jesus laid down his life for everyone.

 

[Brother Paul]

The Bible shows that "Eden" was the name of a land from the Tigris Euphrates area and encompassing the whole land of Ethiopia (the Nubians called themselves Kushites...sons of Kush)....the "garden" was eastward in Eden...all the earliest remains of civilization and the oldest human remains are from this area. Science has demonstrated this to be true...

Now God created (bara) them male and female (Genesis 1) and He formed or made (yatzar) them male first...female second...

The serpent is everywhere else shown to be a metaphor for Satan...not a talking snake!

 

[Abdicate]

The Bible shows that "Eden" was the name of a land from the Tigris Euphrates area and encompassing the whole land of Ethiopia (the Nubians called themselves Kushites...sons of Kush)....the "garden" was eastward in Eden...all the earliest remains of civilization and the oldest human remains are from this area. Science has demonstrated this to be true...

Now God created (bara) them male and female (Genesis 1) and He formed or made (yatzar) them male first...female second...

The serpent is everywhere else shown to be a metaphor for Satan...not a talking snake!

So God told the metaphor he'll crawl on it's belly and eat dust...

 

[Silk]

As, Calvin so eloquently explained, this is "our Genesis" and this means you...and me - us, our beginning. There is no doubt - the Septuginet, the 1st 5 books were written by Moses. Moses was raised as a "prince of Egypt" which means he could read and write. It ticks me off when I hear that he could have been influenced by Egyptian theology (Ahknenaten etal) because it is clear that what he knew was learned from the creator. Genesis, at first, seems like myth mixed with legends to me, in my early years. But when you see the complex system that connects all scripture, you begin to wonder, I don't care what your basis in science is. So... I want to re-emphasize that whatever oral tradition, you want to distrust - God CREATED the universe. If you believe in multiverses - He created those. too. He created man/woman unblemished. Awkward because evolution says we go from worse to better. From savage to civilized - from a 30 year life span to 70. But the truth is we fell. I don't want to discuss time because we are not told if 970 stands for how long Adam was immortal or whether the clock started ticking after the fall. As for snakes that talk? We are lead to believe that Adam/Eve could talk to all living things. It's interesting (to me) that snakes all show they used to have legs. Like snakes no longer have legs, and we no longer can communicate with animals (altho I have met some people who I believed can) I think some important points have been glossed over. Eden was a different world from what we now know. We are told we had access to food that gave us immortal physical life so hard a jump to - we got our protein from a non carniverous source. They say it won't take many degrees for a polarity shift to switch us right back to a 360 day year.

 

[calvin]

transferred content

 

[Silk]

oops

 

[calvin]

So God told the metaphor he'll crawl on it's belly and eat dust...

Metaphorically, why not? Crawling on one's belly is the lowest one can go, so is eating dust...metaphorically speaking that is.

 

[TubbyTubby]

all the earliest remains of civilization and the oldest human remains are from this area. Science has demonstrated this to be true...

Indeed, and a remarkable specimen it is as well. 3.2 million years old and has many characteristics that are more ape like than human.

 

[calvin]

Indeed, and a remarkable specimen it is as well. 3.2 million years old and has many characteristics that are more ape like than human.

Probably because it was once an ape....or are we talking about one teensy weensy splinter of one maybe tooth that could be anything the occasion demands?

 

[Abdicate]

As, Calvin so eloquently explained, this is "our Genesis" and this means you...and me - us, our beginning. There is no doubt - the Septuginet, the 1st 5 books were written by Moses. Moses was raised as a "prince of Egypt" which means he could read and write. It ticks me off when I hear that he could have been influenced by Egyptian theology (Ahknenaten etal) because it is clear that what he knew was learned from the creator. Genesis, at first, seems like myth mixed with legends to me, in my early years. But when you see the complex system that connects all scripture, you begin to wonder, I don't care what your basis in science is. So... I want to re-emphasize that whatever oral tradition, you want to distrust - God CREATED the universe. If you believe in multiverses - He created those. too. He created man/woman unblemished. Awkward because evolution says we go from worse to better. From savage to civilized - from a 30 year life span to 70. But the truth is we fell. I don't want to discuss time because we are not told if 970 stands for how long Adam was immortal or whether the clock started ticking after the fall. As for snakes that talk? We are lead to believe that Adam/Eve could talk to all living things. It's interesting (to me) that snakes all show they used to have legs. Like snakes no longer have legs, and we no longer can communicate with animals (altho I have met some people who I believed can) I think some important points have been glossed over. Eden was a different world from what we now know. We are told we had access to food that gave us immortal physical life so hard a jump to - we got our protein from a non carniverous source. They say it won't take many degrees for a polarity shift to switch us right back to a 360 day year.

Not sure to whom you were addressing your comments, but a little correction: the septuginet is the Greek version of the OT. Moses wrote the Torah, the first five books.

 

[TubbyTubby]

Probably because it was once an ape....or are we talking about one teensy weensy splinter of one maybe tooth that could be anything the occasion demands?

The following are not my words but observed differences between the (substantial) remains of this specimen and modern humans.

The skeleton shows evidence of small skull capacity akin to that of apes and of bipedal upright walk akin to that of humans, supporting the debated view that bipedalism preceded increase in brain size in human evolution.

One of Lucy's most striking characteristics is a valgus knee,[17] which indicates that she normally moved by walking upright. The femoral head of the knee was small and the femoral neck was short, both primitive characteristics. Her greater trochanter, however, was clearly derived, being short and human-like rather taller than the femoral head. The length ratio of her humerus to femur was 84.6% compared to 71.8% for modern humans and 97.8% for common chimpanzees, indicating that either the arms of A. afarensis were beginning to shorten, the legs were beginning to lengthen, or both were occurring simultaneously. Lucy also had a lumbar curve, another indicator of habitual bipedalism. Lucy likely had non-pathological (physiologic) flat feet, not to be confused with pes planus, though other afarensis individuals appear to have had arched feet.[18]

The cranial evidence recovered from Lucy is far less derived than her postcranium. Her neurocranium is small and primitive, while she possesses more spatulate canines than apes. The cranial capacity was about 375 to 500 cc.

Australopithecus afarensis also seems to have had the same conical rib-cage found in Apes like the Chimpanzee and Gorilla, indicating a longer intestine necessary for digesting plant matter. Fully 60% of the blood supply of Apes is used in the digestion process, greatly limiting the brain functions (which consume about 10% of the circulation). Heavier maxilliary masticatory musculature of the jaws also would impede the enlargement of the skull. These muscles seem to have weakened in the evolution of humans with the loss of the myosin gene MYH16, a two base pair deletion, which occurred only about 2.4 million years ago.

A study of the mandibular structure of a number of specimens of Au. Afarensis indicated that Lucy's jaw was rather unlike other hominins, having a more gorilla-like appearance.[19] Rak et al. consider that this mandible structure arose "independently in gorillas and hominins", but that Au. Afarensis is therefore "too derived to occupy a position as a common ancestor of both the Homo and robust australopith clades".[4]

Lucy was not an ape and not a human, she was somewhere inbetween.

 

[Abdicate]

Indeed, and a remarkable specimen it is as well. 3.2 million years old and has many characteristics that are more ape like than human.

So here we go... the age of the Earth. Here's a quote from science on this subject:

"The constancy of radioactive decay rates was regarded as an independent and questionable assumption because it was not known—and could not be known until the development of modern quantum mechanics—that these rates were fixed by the fundamental constants of physics." From http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-science-figured-out-the-age-of-the-earth/

"Fundamental constants" is an interesting conundrum. These constants are so theory-laden they're not actually constant. Just last year there was evidence that Plank's constant isn't constant. The rate of nuclear decay was found to not be constant on earth because of the effects the sun has on us. All these are new facts, yet, because current science holds dearly to time-limited observations and applies them to all time. The point is, any constant is based on other values e.g. six meters, 1.34 seconds, which in themselves can introduce change which would unravel the entire "constant". There's some woman on this site whose husband is a physicist and the conversation came up about dark matter and she became violent about it not existing. Yet it's effects are indeed observed yet without understanding - like faith

Case in point: let's assume (not for me, it's a fact) that the flood actually occurred with the fountains of the deep breaking up around the world shooting water into the stratosphere, some freezing, and returning to the earth. This process would have picked up isotopes, which today is an assumed constant (e.g. Carbon-14), polluting the rate of decay, skewing the measurement of the age of the item being studied. There are a lot of assumptions that are proven untrue yet they are still held as fact. For example, the creation of the Grand Canyon over millions of year when a similar event took place with Mt. St. Helen's eruption, creating a scaled Grand Canyon in a matter of hours. The speed of light is also now in question, which opens a whole can of worms the scientific community doesn't wish to open and doesn't wish to recognize it as an issue.

Use the word of God, first as fact, and then try to understand it in nature. You'll get much further ahead than starting with time-limited observations of the present. The fact is, the scientific community is just as ignorant today of their surroundings as those 100 years ago compared to a 100 years from now. Just 70 years ago, the universe was eternal, then Hubble came along and could not reject the facts and hence we now have a beginning - just like the Scriptures say. What'll happen in another 100 years? Will the earth no longer be 4 billion years old or will it indeed be proven to be 6000 years old... time will tell.

 

[Abdicate]

The following are not my words but observed differences between the (substantial) remains of this specimen and modern humans.

The skeleton shows evidence of small skull capacity akin to that of apes and of bipedal upright walk akin to that of humans, supporting the debated view that bipedalism preceded increase in brain size in human evolution.

One of Lucy's most striking characteristics is a valgus knee,[17] which indicates that she normally moved by walking upright. The femoral head of the knee was small and the femoral neck was short, both primitive characteristics. Her greater trochanter, however, was clearly derived, being short and human-like rather taller than the femoral head. The length ratio of her humerus to femur was 84.6% compared to 71.8% for modern humans and 97.8% for common chimpanzees, indicating that either the arms of A. afarensis were beginning to shorten, the legs were beginning to lengthen, or both were occurring simultaneously. Lucy also had a lumbar curve, another indicator of habitual bipedalism. Lucy likely had non-pathological (physiologic) flat feet, not to be confused with pes planus, though other afarensis individuals appear to have had arched feet.[18]

The cranial evidence recovered from Lucy is far less derived than her postcranium. Her neurocranium is small and primitive, while she possesses more spatulate canines than apes. The cranial capacity was about 375 to 500 cc.

Australopithecus afarensis also seems to have had the same conical rib-cage found in Apes like the Chimpanzee and Gorilla, indicating a longer intestine necessary for digesting plant matter. Fully 60% of the blood supply of Apes is used in the digestion process, greatly limiting the brain functions (which consume about 10% of the circulation). Heavier maxilliary masticatory musculature of the jaws also would impede the enlargement of the skull. These muscles seem to have weakened in the evolution of humans with the loss of the myosin gene MYH16, a two base pair deletion, which occurred only about 2.4 million years ago.

A study of the mandibular structure of a number of specimens of Au. Afarensis indicated that Lucy's jaw was rather unlike other hominins, having a more gorilla-like appearance.[19] Rak et al. consider that this mandible structure arose "independently in gorillas and hominins", but that Au. Afarensis is therefore "too derived to occupy a position as a common ancestor of both the Homo and robust australopith clades".[4]

Lucy was not an ape and not a human, she was somewhere inbetween.

As I've stated before, where are all the in-betweens from the ameba to man? They don't exist. They died out. Well the ameba is still here, is he just lazy now and doesn't want to change? Come on... we can watch a building being put together in stages yet we MUST believe that we had a pool of mud and over millions of years it becomes the building standing before you. Where are all the steps in between? The real falicy of evolution.

 

[TubbyTubby]

So what do YOU think Australopithecus Afarensis is?

 

[TubbyTubby]

As I've stated before, where are all the in-betweens from the ameba to man?

While I don't think we should start to wander too far back in our evolution, there are plenty of examples of our recent ancestors.

Try Ardipithecus Ramidus (4.4 myo) and Ardipithecus Kadabba (5.6 myo). There are many more of course but these represent a time closer to our LCA with modern apes.

 

[Abdicate]

While I don't think we should start to wander too far back in our evolution, there are plenty of examples of our recent ancestors.

Try Ardipithecus Ramidus (4.4 myo) and Ardipithecus Kadabba (5.6 myo). There are many more of course but these represent a time closer to our LCA with modern apes.

You don't understand. If there are 4 million steps (mutations/changes) from fish to man, where are all those steps? You have a fish, and you have a man, and a tooth, and you tell me we came from fish to an ape to a man. Where are all the steps in between? Don't you see the fallacy of evolution? Even if a species is extinct, where are all the new species? You hide behind “time” but time never stops so why are not millions of steps from one species to another. I can take a man’s life and show you in photos all his changes from birth to death. There are babies, toddlers, teens, young adults, mid-life crisis adults, mature adults, old adults and dead adults. I observe all these transitions. You don’t have that in evolution. You link one tooth to some pseudo pre-homo-sapien that never existed. When DNA is done on it you find out it’s the tooth from an extinct boar. I could accept evolution if you had all the transitions from ameba to fish to ape to man, but you don’t have them and generate any 14-page excuse to explain it away instead of facing the reality of the situation.