As do I my brother....as do I!
So Many Different flavors of Baptist
- Thread starter CPerkins
- Start date
As do I my brother....as do I!
They were free will Baptists, correct?
I was part of the Assemblies of God for a decade, schooled b y them, and so do not mind those classic Pentacostalists that much, its the Heath and wealth and word of faith that really bother me!
That is a great question, YeshuaFan, I don't know if there was a connection because of the time frames of the origins of Baptist heritage.
The Anabaptists influence was in the 16th and mid 17th Centuries, were early reformers from the Reformation period, and stemmed from the Separatists.
The FreeWill Baptists planted under Benjamin Randall in the 18th Century in New Hampshire and embraced Calvinism in their doctrine.
Please keep in mind that there was such a mix in the Baptist doctrines during the early 400+ plus years of Baptist heritage.
Bob,
If its okay--may I say that both Calvinism and the latest "prosperity gospel" both make me uneasy. I am trying to weigh all things against scripture and am having problems with some of these areas mentioned above. The thing is this---am I being overly skeptical due to the fallacies thrown at me in the past?
Calvinism presents just enough scripture to entice but then seems to go overboard?
The prosperity gospel seems to go far out in left field and off the scripture path.
If its okay--may I say that both Calvinism and the latest "prosperity gospel" both make me uneasy. I am trying to weigh all things against scripture and am having problems with some of these areas mentioned above. The thing is this---am I being overly skeptical due to the fallacies thrown at me in the past?
Calvinism presents just enough scripture to entice but then seems to go overboard?
The prosperity gospel seems to go far out in left field and off the scripture path.
Hello Blest;
Thank you for sharing and its ok to honestly express how you feel. Ever since the church gathering in the Book of Acts 1:13 Christians have been led to various churches and it's doctrine statement since.
Just the same there will be Christians worldwide who support Calvinism, prosperity gospel, Anabaptism, the Presbytery, etc...Question is, what do we as believers do to sustain the bonding of Christians and body of Christ?
Please continue your personal study and prayer time with God. Speak with your Pastor. He should be equipped and prepared to discuss Ecclesiastical polity with you. These 3 areas is good direction when we rely on the sovereignty of God's will, where we are to serve and worship Him.
Pray and ask God to replace skepticism with discernment and wisdom, especially in conversation and fellowship. Our centeredness in God will cover us with His protection from misdirection. Let your past experience in the church be a learning experience and allow the Holy Spirit to intercede and redirect your path.
God has always been forward thinking since Genesis 1:1. Continue to emulate Him.
God bless you, Blest and your family.
The thing is that we can agree to disagree between Calvinism and non Calvinism, but the word of faith/health and wealth is just heresy plain and simple!
And I do not put all pentacostal and charismatics in there, as was once one myself!
I understand fully. The are a few issues that I typically don't comment on because they are not fully settled in my mind. I trust though that God is with all of us as we study his word after all any true understanding must come from God.
I trust to that God will and does guide us in our studies, contacts, experiences and many other ways we probably don't even realize.
cp
WOW---you hit the nail on the head---couldn't have said it any better myself, Chuck. KUDOS!!
Good questions.
NO ONE has to agree with me on anything I say. Allow me to say that up front.
As for "Calvinism", The five points of Calvinism can be summarized by the acronym TULIP.
"T" = Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself.
"U" = Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.
"L" = Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone.
"I" - Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds.
"P" = Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure or as some say...Once Saved Always Saved.
Now then, most Baptists I know have no problems with 4 of those points but the rub comes with "L" or Limited Atonement and you can count me in with that group.
It is MY understanding that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the sins of the elect.
1 John 2:2 is clearly stated and says..........
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world”.
Other verses in opposition to limited atonement are John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6; and 2 Peter 2:1.
Now as for your question on the "Prosperity Gospel, that one is very easy......It is completely "Heresy".
It is a False teaching where the prosperity gospel is the result of the unbiblical marriage of Christian theology with capitalism. The prosperity gospel is a heresy because it is a distortion of the gospel. It uses bad theology and a faulty interpretation of the Bible.
The prosperity gospel is known under a variety of names: Word of Faith, Health and Wealth, Name It and Claim It, Prosperity Theology. It emphasizes that believers do not have to wait until they get to heaven, but that God's promised generosity is already available in this life, and they can claim it for themselves. The core teaching is simply that "God wants all Christians to be very rich in this life, stay healthy, and the key is giving through tithes and offerings."
This false gospel targets especially the poorest, weakest, most hopeless, helpless and desperate members of society. The only beneficiaries are the prosperity teachers who have become super-rich, while millions of their followers and givers live in abject poverty and lack the basic necessities of life.
Hello Major;
Amen! I'd like to share my experience of Christians who witnessed to me and their support of "Prosperity Gospel" stemming from its origins of the 3 waves;
in 1901 - 1906 The "first wave" was the Holiness Movement and the American Methodist Church called the Pentecostal Movement. Does anyone remember the Azusa Street Revival? This took place on April 1906 at 312 Azusa Street, Los Angeles, California.
The "second wave" in the 1960's extended and expanded the Pentecostal Movement into what was called the Charismatic Movement. It's doctrine and practice was the Spiritual gifts.
The “third wave” in the 1980s called the "neo" Pentecostal and Charismatic Movement, "claims" they grew from the Holy Spirit including the Signs and Wonders Movement, the proclamation of the “word of faith”, “name it and claim it”, "spiritual laughter," etc...
These have led to arguments in the church that are not Biblical, leading to false teachings that have indoctrinated the three waves and are still popular today.
26 years ago, some very close friends of ours who supported prosperity gospel named and claimed their new car, home, money. My question to them was, did you consider what God says about what you're claiming, first? Sadly, they always had financial straits and in time had to file for bankruptcy.
10 years ago a friend who supported prosperity gospel claimed every human is empowered to heal. He chose to stop taking his meds and insulin for diabetes, claimed his own healing and felt fine for awhile. 3 years later he died of kidney and liver failure. I performed the family's funeral.
26 years ago I attended a men's retreat and 3 pastors surrounded me and put their hands on my stomach. By praying the Lord would fill me with "spiritual tongues." This was total false teaching and an abuse to my spiritual and physical well being. Three months later my wife and I left this church.
20 years ago during a worship service, a Pentecostal church whose pastor, a good disciple of the Word, rebuked a man for standing up in the middle of service and began shouting "gibberish." The pastor had no clue what the man was saying and asked the man to stop, He was interrupting the service and had the ushers escort him out. At that moment He then preached 1 Corinthians 14:27 to his congregation what God commands us on the Spiritual Gift of Tongues.
I don't support prosperity gospel but the truth is, millions do world wide. Millions of Christians support other Christian "movements." God's Word are not movements, but God - Breathed, firmly in place from the beginning.
2 Timothy 3:16-17, 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Meantime, we must continue to pray incessantly, daily for others, but especially Christians who are mislead by false teachings from wolves.
When we strive to be disciplined followers of Christ, the Holy Spirit will guide us so we are not moved by slants, mis-interpretation or movements of the Scriptures.
God bless you, Major and your family.
Thank you Bob for your words.
I am pretty sure that we all have seen such things take place....I know I have.
The Azusa Street Revival had its roots in Kansas. A preacher named Charles Parham was one of the early proponents of the Pentecostal movement in the United States and the first to suggest that speaking in tongues was the inevitable evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Parham started a Bible school in Topeka, Kansas. One of his students was an African-American preacher named William Joseph Seymour who was the leader of the event.
The rest of the story is very sketchy and hard to find but it seems as though Seymours teacher and mentor, Charles Parham, the father of the Pentacostel movement was arrested and in reports, is that Parham was having homosexual sex with the younger man. In their words, he was a "sodomite."
Charles Fox Parham - Wikipedia
These experience are new to me, so I'm happy for the education.
Plenty of cult groups near Seattle made the news
Here near Seattle we had the Ramtha new age spiritual sect movement with their School of Enlightenment which was started in 1988.
We also had Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh group near by in Dalles Oregon. We often heard about this group in the papers growing up through the 1980's
Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh - Death, Cult & Oregon - Biography
cp
Plenty of cult groups near Seattle made the news
Here near Seattle we had the Ramtha new age spiritual sect movement with their School of Enlightenment which was started in 1988.
We also had Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh group near by in Dalles Oregon. We often heard about this group in the papers growing up through the 1980's
Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh - Death, Cult & Oregon - Biography
cp
My oh my...
There are so many denominations that my head is spinning. No wonder I can’t decide what denomination I belong..
I think, as long as I stick with being a morally decent being, doing what I can to serve, and loving God and others as best I can, I am good to go
I too have issues with word of faith( I have flirted with this group in the past, it is so tantalising)
Normally, any desire I have I fact check with God first, For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world.
Do I really want what the world says I must have? What would I even do with a few million pound or 10 houses and the beauty of a supermodel?
I’m sure even the wealthiest and healthiest glamorous people are not satisfied for very long. That’s why they’re on drugs.
but wisdom, Love, truth, justice goodness and courage and other great qualities are eternal qualities i much more prefer.
I think i will start my own denomination.
The eternal Truth group
anyone wanna join in
There are so many denominations that my head is spinning. No wonder I can’t decide what denomination I belong..
I think, as long as I stick with being a morally decent being, doing what I can to serve, and loving God and others as best I can, I am good to go
I too have issues with word of faith( I have flirted with this group in the past, it is so tantalising)
Normally, any desire I have I fact check with God first, For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world.
Do I really want what the world says I must have? What would I even do with a few million pound or 10 houses and the beauty of a supermodel?
I’m sure even the wealthiest and healthiest glamorous people are not satisfied for very long. That’s why they’re on drugs.
but wisdom, Love, truth, justice goodness and courage and other great qualities are eternal qualities i much more prefer.
I think i will start my own denomination.
The eternal Truth group
anyone wanna join in
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Yes, there are a lot of denominations. Fortunately in our countries we do have freedom to worship as we choose. Some countries that is a real challenge.
I think, as long as I stick with being a morally decent being, doing what I can to serve, and loving God and others as best I can, I am good to go
I too have issues with word of faith( I have flirted with this group in the past, it is so tantalising)
Normally, any desire I have I fact check with God first, For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world.
Do I really want what the world says I must have? What would I even do with a few million pound or 10 houses and the beauty of a supermodel?
I’m sure even the wealthiest and healthiest glamorous people are not satisfied for very long. That’s why they’re on drugs.
but wisdom, Love, truth, justice goodness and courage and other great qualities are eternal qualities i much more prefer.
If your following God, you'll be okay. Following God includes listening to God as you eat of the word of God and apply it in your life and drink of the living waters (the Holy Spirit) daily. God will lead us where we need to be.
I always like to keep this scripture in mind throughout the day.
Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. (KJV)
I think i will start my own denomination.
The eternal Truth group
anyone wanna join in
Sadly it wouldn't take long and there would be the eternal truth group 1, 2 and 3.
I hate it when these so called enlightened gurus take the unsuspecting public, who are looking for a way out of pain, for a ride that often leads to their downfall.
preying on people’s vulnerabilities is the worst possible crimes
I hate it when these so called enlightened gurus take the unsuspecting public, who are looking for a way out of pain, for a ride that often leads to their downfall.
preying on people’s vulnerabilities is the worst possible crimes
I agree. They often prey on the vulnerable. Some groups expect there followers to sell everything and give it to their church which can prove devastating down the road.
cp
Even Calvin seemed to go back and forth on the matter of the atonement being limited or unlimited , and I still go for limited, but would see it as being that while the death of Jesus was sufficient to have saved all sinners, only the saved ones will benefir from it!
Now there is a so called 4th wave, as in the NAR, which holds to God bringing back to the Church now modern day Apostles and Prophets!