ANY here hold to Genesis not being literal historical Book?

[CranberryArtworks]

Jesus (GOD) used parables to teach. Why would God and Jesus(the same person) teach different ways?

Oxford - parable
a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.

 

[Major]

It also puts Israel on the map, setting them forth as God's Covenant people.

Very true! Excellent point.

 

[Major]

I always found that is an odd verse to understand. Because at that time, most of the New Testament had not been written.

using Biblegateway.

• 1 Timothy: 62-64 AD (or 90-110 AD if pseudonymous)
• 2 Timothy: 64-67 AD (or 90-110 AD if pseudonymous)
  
  
  
• Hebrews: 60-95 AD, but probably late 60s
• James: 45-62 AD
• 1 Peter: 60-65 AD (or 85-90 AD if pseudonymous)
• 2 Peter: 65-68 AD (or 80-90 AD if pseudonymous)
• 1 John: 85-100 AD
• 2 John: 85-100 AD
• 3 John: 85-100 AD
• Jude: 65-80 AD
  
  
  
• Matthew: After 70 AD, preserving oral accounts from the previous generation
• Mark: 64-70 AD, preserving oral accounts from the previous generation
• Luke: Debated; could be any time between 62-90 AD, preserving earlier oral accounts
• John: 90-110 AD, preserving earlier oral accounts
• Acts: 62-90 AD (by Luke)

Actually my friend, Paul would have seen the current Hebrew text he knew and read as the inspired Hebrew Word of God. But we, too, must remember that it is the Holy Spirit moving Paul along in his writings. So, Paul would have seen his writings and other NT authors as inspired because they (Apostles) had been commissioned by God Himself in the flesh.

 

[crossnote]

I always found that is an odd verse to understand. Because at that time, most of the New Testament had not been written.

True, but I thought the OP had been referring to Genesis, not the NT; even still, Peter counted Paul's writings as Scripture and yet Jesus (who spoke the parables) commissioned Paul...

2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Acts 9:15 KJV
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he (Saul/Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

the majority of the NT was written by Paul & Peter.

 

[Major]

True, but I thought the OP had been referring to Genesis, not the NT; even still, Peter counted Paul's writings as Scripture and yet Jesus (who spoke the parables) commissioned Paul...

2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Acts 9:15 KJV
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he (Saul/Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

the majority of the NT was written by Paul & Peter.

I have absolutely NO evidence to support this as what I am about to say is purely my opinion, however, I think that Paul certainly intended his readers to take his letters as authoritative. He knew he was an Apostle as he stated that several time. As one of the elite 12, he knew that what he was writing to those churches was instructive and authoritarian in nature and he knew he was laying the foundation of the church.

IMHO, He also anticipated that they would be incorporated into some collection of teachings as the rabbinic Jews collected the wisdom of the sages, prophets and teachers into collections as sacred writings. But we can't know if Paul anticipated the creation of the New Testament nor can we know if he expected his letters to be represented in it and no one could have anticipated what his epistles turned out to be.

 

[bobinfaith]

Hello YeshuaFan;

ANY here hold to Genesis not being literal historical Book?

As more akin to being Biblical myth or metaphor then?

Years before I heard the term Biblically literal I only believed all Genesis in the story of God's Creation, the story of Adam and Noah (the tower of Babel) is all true, (chapters 1 through 11) these events really happened.

In the continued reading of the story of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph, (chapters 12 through 50) God is revealing His Covenant, plans, salvation by faith, repentance, forgiveness and more. I remain in my strong belief all these events really happened in God's teachings.

However, today I hold to Genesis being literal but also include the figurative (Genesis 1's story of Creation) and metaphorical in many areas such as spiritual instead of objective science.

Question I ask myself, are we defending our literal, figurative, metaphorical, allegorical interpretations, etc...and does it align? Or does our interpretation stand with the faithful and correct interpretation of the Scriptures as originally intended to be understood?

God bless everyone.

Bob

 

[crossnote]

However, today I hold to Genesis being literal but also include the figurative (Genesis 1's story of Creation) and metaphorical in many areas such as spiritual instead of objective science.

If you bumped up against a passage, where 'objective science' said one thing and the Bible another, which would you choose?
Or would you tweak your biblical hermeneutic (e.g., literal to allegorical), so it would fit the scientific model?

 

[Origen]

Question I ask myself, are we defending our literal, figurative, metaphorical, allegorical interpretations, etc...and does it align?

How would the figurative, metaphorical, and allegorical interpretations differ from one another?

 

[bobinfaith]

If you bumped up against a passage, where 'objective science' said one thing and the Bible another, which would you choose? Or would you tweak your biblical hermeneutic (e.g., literal to allegorical), so it would fit the scientific model?

Hello crossnote;

Thank you for asking.

I choose the Bible over objective science regarding Genesis. My reason is the many years that I read a passage, I have doubted and grown to believe God's Word to be 100% true. This has taken years to where I stand today.

I feel when I'm "bumped up" against a passage, or when I fit the objective science, myths, tweaking or "thinking it up as I go along" then I begin to feel I'm compromising the truth of God's Word.

God bless you, brother.

Bob

 

[CranberryArtworks]

Does it matter if it is facts or stories? The important thing is that God included it in the bible for us to learn from. I don't know how much is true or a fact.

In electronics, we use a thing called abstraction for calculations. We could use Maxwell's equations( lots of calculus, I mean, pages).
So instead of using 3 pages of calculus to solve a problem. We use Ohm's law, which turns the 3 pages of calculus into one line of algebra. The answer is not perfect and not as accurate. But it is good enough. It gets the job done.

Genesis is an abstraction. It is not the absolute truth. But it is something a simple human can understand. (without their brain exploding).

 

[CranberryArtworks]

There is an old story about God giving Moses the Torah. (Kabbalah, I believe).

God had Moses ready to write down the Torah. Moses heard a loud note from God.
Moses told God he did not understand that.
God then made a very long, uninterrupted musical song.
Moses again tells God he does not understand.
God put silent spaces in the long musical song.
Moses wrote down the words he could now hear.

 

[crossnote]

Genesis is an abstraction. It is not the absolute truth.

So is sin an abstraction? Sin leads to death. Is death an abstraction? Are the Jews an abstraction?

 

[bobinfaith]

How would the figurative, metaphorical, and allegorical interpretations differ from one another?

Hello Origin;

That's a great question. I'll answer in my own words.

An example of the Biblical figurative is in John 6:35, And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. - KJV

When Jesus was teaching about miracle food He used the bread of life as a figurative.

An example of the Biblical allegorical is in Proverbs 9:1-6, 1 Wisdom has built her house; she has hewn her seven pillars. 2 She has slaughtered her beasts; she has mixed her wine; she has also set her table. 3 She has sent out her young women to call from the highest places in the town, 4 “Whoever is simple, let him turn in here!” To him who lacks sense she says, 5 “Come, eat of my bread and drink of the wine I have mixed. 6 Leave your simple ways, and live, and walk in the way of insight.” - ESV

The allegorical is a story of the woman, or housewife preparing the feast is a symbolic and invitation to wisdom.

An example of the Biblical metaphorical is in Matthew 7:13-14, 13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it. - NASB

The metaphorical is the difference between the narrow gate that is the hard way but leads to life, while the wide gate that is easy but leading to destruction.

I can argue that all three of these interpretations can be similar but each differ in their own unique interpretation deeper than the literal.

Perhaps you can fill in the holes where I may fall short in my explanation.

God bless you, Origen.

Bob

 

[CranberryArtworks]

So is sin an abstraction? Sin leads to death. Is death an abstraction? Are the Jews an abstraction?

Sin is not death. The only Sin is separating yourself from God. By living a sinful life, you cannot go near God. It's like you covering yourself in gasoline and wanting to get near a fire. You need to remove the sin/gasoline before you can go near the light/flames. Jesus did that for us, but we need to accept it and take it inside us, as a part of us.

Death is a big abstraction. Death is one word to describe what happens when you die. Death is not a switch like turning off a light.

God does nothing simple or small.

When God created man. It is one or two lines. We are hugely complex beings. We are a beautiful art of engineering, Physical and spiritual.

That is just the way I look at it, and I am still learning.

 

[crossnote]

Sin is not death.

Sin may not be equivalent to death, but death has a stinger called sin.
1 Corinthians 15:56 KJV
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Death is a big abstraction

Are you sure?
If it is so that death is a distraction, then after the 'big distraction comes the big Judgment....

1. Hebrews 9:27 NASB95
   And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
   

 

[Major]

Sin is not death. The only Sin is separating yourself from God. By living a sinful life, you cannot go near God. It's like you covering yourself in gasoline and wanting to get near a fire. You need to remove the sin/gasoline before you can go near the light/flames. Jesus did that for us, but we need to accept it and take it inside us, as a part of us.

Death is a big abstraction. Death is one word to describe what happens when you die. Death is not a switch like turning off a light.

God does nothing simple or small.

When God created man. It is one or two lines. We are hugely complex beings. We are a beautiful art of engineering, Physical and spiritual.

That is just the way I look at it, and I am still learning.

The law of sin and death is the Old Testament Law of God. The Law is holy, just and good, but, because we cannot keep God’s Law on our own, the result is only sin and death for those under the Law.

Rom 7:10-11 speaks of how sin, death, and the Law are connected: .....
“I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.”

This death refers to spiritual separation from God. Shackled by our depraved nature, we naturally opposed the Law, and we found that God’s life-giving Word served only to sentence us to death. It is because of this that Paul can refer to the Law as the “law of sin and death.”

 

[YeshuaFan]

As a literal believer, I always look at what the literal meaning is 1st. However, as it has been batted back and forth several times here and in other places, I think that we have seen that the creation account cannot be interpreted literally all the way through.

Do we believe that something as huge and as powerful as the Sun, God created it and moon on the fourth day. Really??? THINK about that!
It seems to me that At least some of the account is poetic or symbolic (for lack of a better term) rather than precise.

Genesis does not give us any historical, factual and precise dates, and neither does it give scientific facts.

What then is it for? Primarily, it reveals God as Creator.

The description of Adam and Eve as special creations by God and not evolved Primates, the actual literal Fall, and the Proto Gospel being given to me are essentials that we hopefully can all agree upon , as there are many who seem to want to negate those as being essential truths for Christians to now hold

 

[YeshuaFan]

I have absolutely NO evidence to support this as what I am about to say is purely my opinion, however, I think that Paul certainly intended his readers to take his letters as authoritative. He knew he was an Apostle as he stated that several time. As one of the elite 12, he knew that what he was writing to those churches was instructive and authoritarian in nature and he knew he was laying the foundation of the church.

IMHO, He also anticipated that they would be incorporated into some collection of teachings as the rabbinic Jews collected the wisdom of the sages, prophets and teachers into collections as sacred writings. But we can't know if Paul anticipated the creation of the New Testament nor can we know if he expected his letters to be represented in it and no one could have anticipated what his epistles turned out to be.

Interesting to me is that there are passages where Paul ascribed as scripture Gospel of Luke and Isaiah, and Peter acknowledged his writings as being also very scripture

 

[bobinfaith]

Sin is not death. The only Sin is separating yourself from God. By living a sinful life, you cannot go near God. It's like you covering yourself in gasoline and wanting to get near a fire. You need to remove the sin/gasoline before you can go near the light/flames. Jesus did that for us, but we need to accept it and take it inside us, as a part of us. Death is a big abstraction. Death is one word to describe what happens when you die. Death is not a switch like turning off a light. God does nothing simple or small. When God created man. It is one or two lines. We are hugely complex beings. We are a beautiful art of engineering, Physical and spiritual. That is just the way I look at it, and I am still learning.

Good morning, CranberryArtworks;

I blue and red lighted a few of your statements.

Your post is very articulate. There are believers and nonbelievers who would have no idea what this means nor would say/post anything.

John 11:25-26, 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” - RSV

It is my belief that sin equates to death. Sin is death. It goes beyond abstraction. Death is a separation from God. I shudder at the thought of my sin separating me from God, forever.

Praise God for His promise in John 11:25-26. Our Spirit that lives in us is life.

I seriously believe this.

God bless you, brother.

Bob

 

[CranberryArtworks]

Good morning, CranberryArtworks;

I blue and red lighted a few of your statements.

Your post is a very articulate. There are believers and nonbelievers who would have no idea what this means nor would say/post anything.

John 11:25-26, 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” - RSV

It is my belief that sin equates to death. Sin is death. It goes beyond abstraction. Death is a separation from God. I shudder at the thought of my sin separating me from God, forever.

Praise God for His promise in John 11:25-26. Our Spirit that lives in us is life.

I seriously believe this.

God bless you, brother.

Bob

The odd thing for me. I dont know how true the bible. But I know in the very center of my being, Jesus is real. and have absolute faith in him. It is everything else I have trouble with, and I am still working out.

This is going off topic. But years ago, I was working on installing a computer in an office. I was under the desk plugging cables in, and something hit me. It was like having my soul lit up. At the moment, I knew everything. I understood why everything was the way it was. I could not ask a question because it all made perfect sense. I continue to finish my job and left. On the way home, it hit me what happened. It was all gone, and the only thing I remember was the line "Jesus knew truths," and I knew it. I dont have faith in it. I know it to be true.
I never really talk about it. And sometimes I forget it happened.

I am still sorting the rest out.