America And It's Relationship To The End Of The World

I can not see America in Revelation or playing any part in endtime prophecy.

Is it out of patriotism and blind sycophantic fever that some Americians swear blindly America is in prophecy? IS the hatred of the Cold War still deep in peoples hearts that they can not accept that the enemy of Russia is to play a part but the US is not?

So you are saying America NEVER was considered in the Revelation? But Russia was? How do you explain that?
Quite simply, Russia is Magog. IF you look at Ezekiel 38 and 39, you will see how a leader called Gog leads a army from Magog to wage war on Israel after Israel has its land back. That has now happened in 1948, so where is Magog?

Josephus, Roman historian, wrote in The Antiquities of the Jews that the people of Magog are the people whom the Greeks called “Scythians.” History already has detailed knowledge of the Scythians, these people migrated from the Middle East, travelling North and populated the lands of Russia and the former Soviet republics. I wont go into details about the leader Gog, but it can be considered Gog will be a puppet of Satan or even Satan himself, the invading army will be defeated supernaturally with God stepping in directly, this makes more sense if Satan leads this army.


How come the 900 year old British Empire is not considered?Surely, since the British were instrumental in setting up the Jewish state, and America had next to zip to do with it?

WHy should my nations former Empire be mentioned or play a part, Kingdoms come, Kingdoms go, Empires rise and Fall, but GOd remains. Although Great Britain played a huge part in Israel formation, we still dishonoured God and cursed the Jews. The initial plan was to give the new nation of Israel a huge amount of land, almost the same amount that God promised Abraham, however after relentless pressure from Arab nations and other enemies, the amount of land was continually reduced to just a couple of tiny strips of desert to rule over. That must have angered God, and we can see from that point the final collapse of our once proud nation and the final remnants of Empire came crashing down.

What part did America play in the formation of Israel? Yes America has treaties in place and supports Israel for many reasons, one of which includes defence research, it is said that the few billion America gives to Israel should really be counted as part of the defence and research budget.

However God says that those who curse Israel will be cursed, although Israel gets support from the USA, the USA is a major thorn in Israels side, the US government have over the decades been instrumental in making Israel give up land and conceed to their enemies. All the major disasters to hit America can be proven to tie in as a punishment for cursing Israel.

Combined with the rejection of God in all aspects of government and schools, America is on the road to damnation and ruin. The British used to honour God as a nation and also in our government and even our Royal Family, abolition of the slave trade began in Great Britian, we sent countless missionaries around the world and so on. However we ended up abandoning God which saw our blessings being replaced with curses and our Empire crumbled, final nail in coffin was in the 1940s as I already covered.

In 30 years time America could be bankrupt, unable to finance any kind of military force and unable to wield any financial or political influence or power, in short a minor nation on the world stage, just like Great Britain is today. Why would such a nation have any part to play in end time prophecy?

As for being Babylon, clutching at straws and wishful thinking, if the nation ends up broken and nothing, then of course how can it be the Babylon in prophecy? it cant. America maybe powerful and great, but I still see all my products and toys ive had since childhood being stamped with "made in china" or "far East" or "Taiwan", not made in USA- Babylon.



I find the idea of who calls what nation a "world power" is based solely on current events, not very solidly provable by biblical exegesis.

I have Christian books of long ago who said Turkey was the world power in the Revelation; another claimed Germany was. Still another, Japan, the "kings of the East" theory.

Do we base our understand on newsreels or the moral purpose of the Revelation?
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I have always said its a bit foolish to base prophecy solely on today politics and level of technology, so why do you then make same mistake by assuming USA is in prophecy simply because its a major power this day. The beauty of prophecy is we will know it when we see it. At the moment Babylon is just like the anti-christ, we know a good deal about them, but have no idea who or where, but when they emerge we will know.

what do you mean exactly by moral purpose of Revelation?
 
Let me clarify my position because I think it me being taken in the wrong light...

My assertion is that the USA probably won't exist when Revelation is fulfilled. I don't have a clue quite frankly what country or city will be "Babylon". The point I was trying to make is 'at this time' we US citizens are witnessing the demise of the USA. I don't think that it is an absolute pivotal point in the prophesy timeline; however, I believe that it is necessary that the USA be destroyed to make way for the 1 world everything. Could be 5, 10, 50, 100, 1000 years or whatever when the "End Times" are upon us.

My observation is that with technology and what not, it is becoming much more likely that an entire planet can be duped in multiple ways-or straight out annihilated.
 
I understood what you wrote earlier, Dirty.

I don't see why folks think "Babylon" must be a nation a city or any political entity.
 
Do think it is purely symbolic in this context?
A symbol is not meaningless, Christ used symbols in all His parables to convey an idea: yeast=sin, sheep=people, etc.

I think modern Christians need to see what the original meaning of Babylon meant to the Jews (because it was written to Jews by Jews who must come to the Lord)..."What does the OT reveal about Babylon as it pertains to God's people?" Where is the first mention of Babel (the root of Babylon) and what does it mean? Just a place? Just an event?
 
Thanks for your long post, Agricola: I will leave most of it to be answered by others, but will address your question to me in the last sentence:

Failing to read the prophecies in the light of Christ's work of salvation caused the Jews to misunderstand the prophecies they knew so well.

The Jews were led to reject Christ because of their misinterpretation of the prophecies concerning Israel: they forgot or overlooked the moral purpose of prophecy - personal salvation from sin.

If eyewitnesses misunderstood, I have no faith in Josephus. He was just another Jew who perpetuated his nation's misunderstandings.
 
So you are saying America NEVER was considered in the Revelation? But Russia was? How do you explain that? How come the 900 year old British Empire is not considered? Surely, since the British were instrumental in setting up the Jewish state, and America had next to zip to do with it?

I find the idea of who calls what nation a "world power" is based solely on current events, not very solidly provable by biblical exegesis.

I have Christian books of long ago who said Turkey was the world power in the Revelation; another claimed Germany was. Still another, Japan, the "kings of the East" theory.

Do we base our understand on newsreels or the moral purpose of the Revelation?

Well my brother..........I can not explain it at all!!!

All I can do and have done is read the Revelation, and all the other bookss of prophecy and have studied them and even written some things on them over the years, and I have never found the USA to be involved. That is ME.

Someone else may not see it that way and they may be correct.

What I can say is that a nation is mentioned in the Bible whenever God’s people have a part in the history of that nation. Whenever any nation relates in one way or another to the destiny of God’s people, then they are brought to view in Bible prophecy. That’s the way the Lord has worked in the past and the Bible says that history tends to repeat itself.

Take the nation of Babylon, for example represented by Daniel’s head of gold. This nation is brought to view during the time of the prophet Daniel because it was God’s instrument in bringing the nation of Israel to repentance. God’s people were taken captive and became prisoners under the nation of Babylon and that’s why the nation is mentioned at all in Bible prophecy.

Another nation, the old pagan Roman Empire, represented by King Herod, was brought to view in the Bible because it attempted to kill the baby Jesus. King Herod attempted to stop the growth of the Christian church by killing its author, the Lord Jesus, the Messiah. And we also hear of stories of Christians being thrown to the lions and burned at the stake and we hear of these because they had something to do with God’s people in Biblical prophecy. That is the only reason that these nations are mentioned at all.
 
So you are saying America NEVER was considered in the Revelation? But Russia was? How do you explain that? How come the 900 year old British Empire is not considered? Surely, since the British were instrumental in setting up the Jewish state, and America had next to zip to do with it?

I find the idea of who calls what nation a "world power" is based solely on current events, not very solidly provable by biblical exegesis.

I have Christian books of long ago who said Turkey was the world power in the Revelation; another claimed Germany was. Still another, Japan, the "kings of the East" theory.

Do we base our understand on newsreels or the moral purpose of the Revelation?

Rusty.......I can not explain it at all my brother.

The simple fact is since the United States is not mentioned specifically by name in Bible prophecy, people have resorted to their imaginations to find our nation in the Scriptures.

I personally believe that the reason the U.S. is not mentioned in end time prophecy is because we will suddenly cease to be a world power and will therefore play no significant role in end time events. That can be because of finances, conflict or the Rapture.

That is an OPINION. It is only MY opinion.

If the Rapture were to occur today, we would be devastated because our nation contains more born again Christians than any other nation in the world — more than all of Western Europe combined. Further, we have many born again Christians in high positions of commerce and government. The Rapture would reduce our nation to chaos, removing us from the international scene as the world’s dominant power.

It would also remove our ability to protect Israel which would allow all of the chaos we see in the Revelation to take place.

IF the USA is in Biblical I think it would be appropreiate now for anyone to post those Bible verses for us to consider and respond to.
 
Do think it is purely symbolic in this context?

It has to be since the Bible says that Babylon will never be rebuilt.

"Jehovah hath stirred up the spirit of the kings
of the Medes; because his purpose is against Babylon,
to destroy it: for it is the vengeance of Jehovah...
thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith Jehovah.
And Babylon shall become heaps, a dwelling-place for
jackals, an astonishment, and a hissing, without
inhabitant...And Jeremiah wrote in a book all the evil
that should come upon Babylon, even all these words
that are written concerning Babylon... O Jehovah,
thou hast spoken concerning this place, to cut it off,
that none shall dwell therein, neither man nor beast,
but that it shall be desolate for ever."(Jeremiah 51:11,26,37,60,62)(ASV)
 
So you are saying America NEVER was considered in the Revelation? But Russia was? How do you explain that? How come the 900 year old British Empire is not considered? Surely, since the British were instrumental in setting up the Jewish state, and America had next to zip to do with it?

I find the idea of who calls what nation a "world power" is based solely on current events, not very solidly provable by biblical exegesis.

I have Christian books of long ago who said Turkey was the world power in the Revelation; another claimed Germany was. Still another, Japan, the "kings of the East" theory.

Do we base our understand on newsreels or the moral purpose of the Revelation?

Correct! THere is NO Biblical record of the USA being involved in end time events.

Can I explain that?? Absolutly NOT. I have no clue what so ever.

All I am saying is that we are NOT listed anywhere!!!

IF you know where in the Scriptures we The USA is found, please post them and lets see where we go with them.

I do not understand what you mean by............
" Do we base our understand on newsreels or the moral purpose of the Revelation".??????
 
ooops........I am having a real problem with my computer. It locks up but shows no posting then Boom there it is.
I posted the same thought a couple of time....sorry about that!
 
Please....I don't want to get into the gun thing again: this is a topic on Bible ideas maybe even prophecy, so lets avoid the civil aspects and talk on Bible ideas, OK?

Do you see any prophecy concerning America and the endtimes specifically underscored in the Word?

NO!
 
I would concur that "America" is not mentioned in Scripture as far as I can tell. The label "antichrist" is used only five times in the NT four of which are found in First John talking about the Gnostics and once in Second John talking about the same thing. The beast in Revelation is called the man of "lawlessness" and that title is given to him, I think, because he will be a world leader who will suddenly come upon the scene following a major and catasatrophic disaster that will plunged the entire world into chaos. It does seem strange to me that the United States doesn't seem to be mentioned. Does that indicate we no longer exist as a country at the time? Or could it indicate that our nation has been so diminished and degraded in world prestige and power that we are no longer a major player in world affairs?

That is what I believe as well Jack.

The truth is that on paper, financially we are already reduced to a second rate country.

$16 BILLION in debt and most of that to China proves it!
 
Thanks for your long post, Agricola: I will leave most of it to be answered by others, but will address your question to me in the last sentence:

Failing to read the prophecies in the light of Christ's work of salvation caused the Jews to misunderstand the prophecies they knew so well.

The Jews were led to reject Christ because of their misinterpretation of the prophecies concerning Israel: they forgot or overlooked the moral purpose of prophecy - personal salvation from sin.

If eyewitnesses misunderstood, I have no faith in Josephus. He was just another Jew who perpetuated his nation's misunderstandings.

Rusty...........do you think maybe that the Jews were looking for a MILITARY Savior to come rifing over the hilltop with his army to delever them from the Romans oppression?????

They knew the Scriptures very well. Remember when the wise men came to visit the baby Jesus. Herod asked his scribes who they were seeking and they gave him the answer FROM the Scriptures immendiatly without even looking it up.

THEY KNEW!
 
Oh boy, Major....Your computer goofed you up. But I will address as best I can:

1. The scribes knowing the prophecy geographically (Bethlehem) did not help them understand the spirit of the Word. They still rejected Christ, as they do today, in spite of their constant "study".

2. It seems you understand "Babylon" to be a metaphor for some other something....What? Iraq/Syria? Or does it have a spiritual meaning?

3. Egypt is mentioned often, also all of the other nations and tribes that attacked or enslaved God's people. Does their mention of in endtime prophecy have to do with international politics or do they symbolize all elements that try to destroy the redeemed?

4. If (as I think you suggested) Russia is eluded to, which I cannot find, and America, whom you claim as the highest number of the saved, is NOT.....you have no thoughts as to how this could be? During WWII, most evangelicals said Germany and Japan were pointed to in prophecy, Hitler and Tojo were the antichrist, etc. During the Cold War, the onus was on Communism, China and Russia. Some still claim this today.
 
Oh boy, Major....Your computer goofed you up. But I will address as best I can:

1. The scribes knowing the prophecy geographically (Bethlehem) did not help them understand the spirit of the Word. They still rejected Christ, as they do today, in spite of their constant "study".

2. It seems you understand "Babylon" to be a metaphor for some other something....What? Iraq/Syria? Or does it have a spiritual meaning?

3. Egypt is mentioned often, also all of the other nations and tribes that attacked or enslaved God's people. Does their mention of in endtime prophecy have to do with international politics or do they symbolize all elements that try to destroy the redeemed?

4. If (as I think you suggested) Russia is eluded to, which I cannot find, and America, whom you claim as the highest number of the saved, is NOT.....you have no thoughts as to how this could be? During WWII, most evangelicals said Germany and Japan were pointed to in prophecy, Hitler and Tojo were the antichrist, etc. During the Cold War, the onus was on Communism, China and Russia. Some still claim this today.

Well, let me see what we can do here if my computer will hold out.

1).
In Matthew 2 when Herod asked his scribes where Messiah would be born, they answered him immediatly without even looking it up. They knew and were expecting Him but not to come and save them from their sins, but as a general to save them from the Romans.

2).
IMO there are TWO Babylons in the End Times.

First one is in Rev. 17 and it is a "religeous" system that will be in view during the last 7 years. The A/C is a political BUT his vice president if you will is going to be the "False Prophet ( Rev. 13) and he will lead the world to worship the A/C.

Second Babylon is a literal city found in Rev. 18. IMO it will be the capital city of the A/C and will probably be in the middle east somewhere close to where the flow of oil can be controled. OIL is the substance that lubricates the economies of the world. A man who controles OIL and WATER will be a powerful person.

3).
YES. Egypt is seen as the "King of the South" in Daniel 11:40-41 and he will puch against Israel and attack them during the Tribulation.

4).
Only TIME confirms Biblical prophecy. People who saw and experienced WW2 I am sure believed that they were seeing the last days...BUT it could not have been due to the simple fact that Israel WAS NOT BACK IN THE LAND UNTIL May 14, 1948.

Was Togo and Hitler & Stalin antichrists? YES! But they were not THE Antichrist said to rule during the last days. TIME has proven that to be correct.

Rusty, my comment on America having the most saved is only an opinion. I do not know only think that to be the case.

As for Russia, lets consider Ezekiel 38:1-7......
"And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them."

You are exactly correct that "Russia " is not found any more than is the USA. However, the fact that all the peoples and nationed mentioned in these verses lay NORTH of Israel harmonizes very well with the prophets that have said many times that enemy forces will come from the NORTH (Dan. 11:40-41) and will descend upon Israel. Many Bible scholars believe that the one with the military ability to attack as seen in Ezekiel is Russia.

IMO opinion, that is a very clear possibility. In fact, just 4 years ago, Russia invaded Georgia and is still hanging around and Georgia is next to Turkey and Turkey IS listed as a country that will oppress Israel.
 
As I said previously , do not get hung up on current labels and names for regions, At this point in time Russia fits the prophecy, as Russia occupies the land of the people of Magog and its only nation who can achieve the act of attacking Israel, you must have noticed the sabre rattling with Israel.

Had the USA decided to go to war against Russia and won and the US is occupying that land, then you could say that th USA is in prophecy as it now occupied the region of Magog!
 
I agree, Agricola: there is no mystery to prophecy if all the geographical place names are right there and revealed. It ain't about real estate for the Lord, its about converted hearts.

Major: As you pointed out, pre-WWII Bible scholars got things all balled up. But it is not any better today, IMO.
If we go by your geographical idea, Meshech and Tubal is the nation of Georgia, ironically one of the first Christian kingdoms as was Armenia...these are the ONLY nations (besides modern day Syria) that are north of ancient Israel. Russia had no contact with ancient Israel, today is very much a Christian nation (unless you dislike Orthodox Christians for some reason)

Libya, was and is west of Israel, Iran (Persia) is east and Ethiopia is south and one of the first Christian kingdoms. Still is, unless you dislike Coptic Christians.

So whatever "many Bible scholars believe" today, they have a pretty bad track record over the past 2 centuries, from what I have read.

So, I think a careful student of the Word should look and see what your list of nations meant to the ancient Hebrews {destroyers of their religion} and understand that God is using type and anti-type in prophecy, not Scuds and drones. God wants Christians to see that just like ancient Israel, there are many attackers in the world out to destroy God's true faith among mankind, as vicious and as overwhelming as the King of the North (Assyrian back then) and the King of the South (Pharaoh back when)...
 
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