America And It's Relationship To The End Of The World

The 1970's Hal Lindsey idea that prophecy is about oil, is half-baked, IMO.

Modern China and India are the largest oil markets...and yet never even mentioned in the Bible. Hmmmm.....
 
So you are saying America NEVER was considered in the Revelation? But Russia was? How do you explain that? How come the 900 year old British Empire is not considered? Surely, since the British were instrumental in setting up the Jewish state, and America had next to zip to do with it?

I find the idea of who calls what nation a "world power" is based solely on current events, not very solidly provable by biblical exegesis.

I have Christian books of long ago who said Turkey was the world power in the Revelation; another claimed Germany was. Still another, Japan, the "kings of the East" theory.

Do we base our understand on newsreels or the moral purpose of the Revelation?
Well I believe we need to be looking at the moral purpose of Revelation.......Said that a few times elsewhere here, but not in those words exactly.
Babylon? Babylon? Babylon? Babylon? Babylon? Babylon? Ahh yes Babylon the Great!
From small beginnings at Babel where mankind was gathered, united against the Lord God, later a world power again arrayed against the Lord God in arrogant defiance and finally gathered again in united defiance of the Lord God.
When Babylon falls, all rebellion will fall with it.
Babylon of old marched into the Holy Land and encompassed the people of God. At some time in the future, Babylon will again encompass the camp of the saints, only to be destroyed by fire from heaven.
Doesn't matter what hat people hang on Babylon,...Gog, Magog (Moscow)?? The point is that Babylon has from it's humble beginnings at Babel, spawned all that is opposed to God, and there is not one nation that is free of this guilt nor exempt from the pollution of Babylon's whoredoms.
Rev 16:19. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Sounds rather Global to me. So, yeah the spiritual should be our focus not the news media...the blind leading the blind.
 
That's exactly how I see it calvin. It's spiritual confusion attacking the saints, not a matter of ballistics and Middle Eastern real estate.

Frankly: It seems a huge decoy of the enemy to distract Christians to look at geo-politics instead of their need to conform to Christ's image of what Christianity must be.
 
That's exactly how I see it calvin. It's spiritual confusion attacking the saints, not a matter of ballistics and Middle Eastern real estate.

Frankly: It seems a huge decoy of the enemy to distract Christians to look at geo-politics instead of their need to conform to Christ's image of what Christianity must be.
Yes tRusty, exactly so!
 
Natch, Dirty: But what concerns me more is modern Christians repeating the disconnects of the past:

The Jewish religionists were masters in the outside knowledge of the Scriptures, yet, with all their reading of the Old Testament, they did not understand the prophecies. Not only were prophecies abundantly fulfilled before their eyes, but they themselves helped to fulfill them and yet were too spiritually blind to recognize their fulfillment.

Peter declared:
"Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days" (Acts 3:24).

Paul proclaimed:
"And when they [the Jews] had fulfilled all that was written of Him . .. the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that He hath raised up Jesus again" (Acts 13:27-33).
 
I don't want to say prophecy is not important...I find it interesting...especially when you have so many roads of speculation. Our imaginations can definitely carry us away. Overall, I think that as Christians: the #1 priority is that the Lord is coming back-regardless of the nonsense of this world.

I think the overall intent of prophecy is to warn-not subject to debate; however, if you don't know what it is talking about-then how can you relate it to the events and history of the world?
 
That's exactly how I see it calvin. It's spiritual confusion attacking the saints, not a matter of ballistics and Middle Eastern real estate.

Frankly: It seems a huge decoy of the enemy to distract Christians to look at geo-politics instead of their need to conform to Christ's image of what Christianity must be.


I understand your thinking Rusty BUT IMO we should not look past the importance of the LAND.

The LAND is God's Promised Land to His chosen people for all eternity and IMO would be a mistake to discount it just as "Middle Eastern real estate".
 
The 1970's Hal Lindsey idea that prophecy is about oil, is half-baked, IMO.

Modern China and India are the largest oil markets...and yet never even mentioned in the Bible. Hmmmm.....

I wonder about that. It is not about who consumes the oil BUT who has the oil.

IF, the USA is removed in some way, and Saudia Arbia decides to place a price tag of $500 on a barrell of oil, how long do you think it would take China to invade them??? Or India so that matter.

IMO, Hal Lindsey got it right. Oil runs the worlds economy!

Rev. 9: 16
"And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand and I heard the number of them".

That comes to 200 million man army. China today with its militia has more than 200 million men in its army.


Rev. 16:12
"And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates and the water therof was dried up that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared".

Who are the kings of the east????? China? China & India?

A 200 million man army would have to walk to the Holy lands and it would have to go through India to get there.
 

Glomung

Account Closed
The Chinese would take the silk road from the Gobi desert straight east to Tehran then on to Israel.
The southern route has no major roads and is swamp throughout Bangladesh, can't get tanks through
a river delta.
 
The Chinese would take the silk road from the Gobi desert straight east to Tehran then on to Israel.
The southern route has no major roads and is swamp throughout Bangladesh, can't get tanks through
a river delta.

Glo, you may be right.........but notice the Scriptures

Rev. 16:12
"And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates and the water therof was dried up that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared".

Remmeber that it is God who is bringing all the nations together in a place called Armageddon and with God, all things are possible. LIke the parting of the Red Sea and the drying up of the river Jorden.
 
It was suggested on another thread that the demise of America (whatever that is) is the straw that breaks the camel's back and ushers in a one world government, the Antichrist, etc ,etc.

I would like to see the Christian and biblical (not politics!) reasonings that any may have that would make the entire planetary civilization collapse due to America's.....what? ....change? fall? weaknesses?

Please attempt to be polite, use Scripture and avoid pop-prophecy and political themes.

Thanks.

In terms of America, scripture is very silent. Either they are irrelevent or non-existent in the end times.
 
Gents, please...Let's keep it on America, please and leave Chinese "horsemen" (which are a mere 2.25 million in all of it's service branches: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Liberation_Army) and no horsemen ....Come on...these are in no way "kings" anyway!

Kevin: No direct mention, yes. Some see a symbolic mention.

Major: Oil? Not really...the world runs on food and water. Lose them and all the oil in America's #1 ally, Saudi Arabia, is useless.

Glomung: The total length of the Silk Road is over 2,485 miles, over half of which is within China. The costs for moving only one battalion that sort of distance is in the billions.
 
I think you are missing the point Rusty, there may not be 200 million horsemen in Chinese army today, but by the time we see this prophecy come around, then whos to say they are going to all have horses? The point is, that the Chinese army is the only army in the world which already has this number.

humans need food and water, true, but our factories and processing plants which make our food and water all run on oil. Remove oil from the equation and industry and transport system will grind to a halt. Oil is an essential part of the worlds economy in more ways than one.

Why would it cost billions to march a Battalion 2,500 miles? Are you one of these people who factor in the existing expenses and wages when calculating the costs of a war?
 
Agricloa: I rebutted the non-American comments only to be polite, and have asked from the beginning that we focus on AMERICA's possible role. China is not even hinted about...that was my only concern. Well... besides the misinformation posted about the "kings" being Chinese...Find anywhere else in the Bible where troops are called "kings".

If folks want to take all of the Revelation as literal, I will show how literal concepts are not a matter of reason and/or faith.

So...back to America.....Any role in prophecy or not?
 
Americas role in prophecy as mentioned in Bible is non existent, there is nothing to suggest or even the slightest hint of anything.
 
Americas role in prophecy as mentioned in Bible is non existent, there is nothing to suggest or even the slightest hint of anything.
But China is?

Christendom's strongholds, Europe, America, and the Commonwealth are unimportant in the prophetic scheme of things, according to most Evangelicals? Or does research prove that many of them see their nation as involved in the Middle East?
 
Agricloa: I rebutted the non-American comments only to be polite, and have asked from the beginning that we focus on AMERICA's possible role. China is not even hinted about...that was my only concern. Well... besides the misinformation posted about the "kings" being Chinese...Find anywhere else in the Bible where troops are called "kings".

If folks want to take all of the Revelation as literal, I will show how literal concepts are not a matter of reason and/or faith.

So...back to America.....Any role in prophecy or not?

Rusty......being polite is not something we DO, it should be something that we are.

IMO, and observations have been over the years that there are some subjects that always end in arguments and Prophecy is one of them.

I do hope that we ALL can be polite and respectful of others thoughts and opinions on this subject.

IMO, as stated before, America has no role in end time events. Those are MY opinions.

I do believe that Chanina is "hinted" at and very clearly.

IN Rev. 16:12....."Kings of the east" is literally translated as "LAND OF SUN RISING" in the Greek.

In Rev. 16:14 is the Biblical record of a 200 million man army MOVING from the east across Iraq, the Euphrates river and into the Promised Land. China right now has that army.

"Kings" .............

Rev. 19:19
"And I saw the beast and the KINGS of the earth and their ARMIES assembled to make war against Him who sat upon the horse and against His army".

Clearly the Bible describes these KINGS as being a mass ARMY coming against Christ.
 
The only association with China at this point in time is the ability to field an army of 200,000,000 . Of course that is assuming the passage is refering to a single nation or even 200,000,000. I have read some articles which claim the number is calculated incorrectly, but fails to provide a new figure and how the number should be calculated.

Of course thats not to say America will get involved in some part, but if it is, then it is not a significant event that warrants a mention in prophecy, all the nations gathered against Israel is mentioned. BUt will USA still be a nation? maybe the lands are then divided between Canada and Mexico. OR more sinister, China go to war against America. it is said 1/3 of people on earth will die, A war between China and USA will do that. USA defeat? possible, as China will see to it that America economy collapses, military cutbacks , factories close etc. in mean time CHina churn out thousand times more military vehicles and weapons. Ripe for picking off in a war.


Point is we do not really know 100% , that is the point of prophecy, There is not much left prophecy wise, just a couple of wars against Israel and the events of the Tribulation anyway. Biblical prophecy is not a hit and miss guesswork that many non-beleivers think it is, rather on lines of Nostrodamas or some other person giving a vague prophecy, such as saying "i see a plane with red on it crashing". Probability that a plane with red on it will crash in next 10 years is very high, as red is a colour on most planes. Prophecy in Bible is not vague, but on the other hand most of it is not a complete detailed account.

The point of prophecy is that when it happens we can be in no doubt it has happened or happening and those people who see it can respond accordingly. For ourselves I doubt we will see any of this happen, we may have died before anything kicks off, or we are raptured. The people who are going to benefit from Revelation are those living through the events described, some will then become believers because of it.

Of course being human we like to know all the minor details, so that is why we have so much discussion about prophecy! One thing is sure, discussing all the scenarios and possibilities keeps us alert to world events.
 
The only association with China at this point in time is the ability to field an army of 200,000,000 . Of course that is assuming the passage is refering to a single nation or even 200,000,000. I have read some articles which claim the number is calculated incorrectly, but fails to provide a new figure and how the number should be calculated.

Of course thats not to say America will get involved in some part, but if it is, then it is not a significant event that warrants a mention in prophecy, all the nations gathered against Israel is mentioned. BUt will USA still be a nation? maybe the lands are then divided between Canada and Mexico. OR more sinister, China go to war against America. it is said 1/3 of people on earth will die, A war between China and USA will do that. USA defeat? possible, as China will see to it that America economy collapses, military cutbacks , factories close etc. in mean time CHina churn out thousand times more military vehicles and weapons. Ripe for picking off in a war.


Point is we do not really know 100% , that is the point of prophecy, There is not much left prophecy wise, just a couple of wars against Israel and the events of the Tribulation anyway. Biblical prophecy is not a hit and miss guesswork that many non-beleivers think it is, rather on lines of Nostrodamas or some other person giving a vague prophecy, such as saying "i see a plane with red on it crashing". Probability that a plane with red on it will crash in next 10 years is very high, as red is a colour on most planes. Prophecy in Bible is not vague, but on the other hand most of it is not a complete detailed account.

The point of prophecy is that when it happens we can be in no doubt it has happened or happening and those people who see it can respond accordingly. For ourselves I doubt we will see any of this happen, we may have died before anything kicks off, or we are raptured. The people who are going to benefit from Revelation are those living through the events described, some will then become believers because of it.

Of course being human we like to know all the minor details, so that is why we have so much discussion about prophecy! One thing is sure, discussing all the scenarios and possibilities keeps us alert to world events.

My understanding is that there was not a Greek word for Two Hundred Million so John used "two hundred thousand thousand which actually could mean MORE than 200 million.

Again, I say that does not mean it it China, only that they do in fact fit that description. It could be any number of other nations or a combination of nations but we know for sure that they come from the EAST and move west into the Land.

It certainly will not be "Horsemen". It will be modern warfare not men on horses. John wrote what he saw in his own language and terms of 2000 years ago.
 
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