Annihilationism

[KingJ]

2. I'm not sure if I've met someone with this view before. Can you elaborate through Scripture? I agree that banishment would be punishment regardless of if there was actual torment going on. I imagine knowing that you are going to be permanently separated from God like that would be horrible.

3. It's weird how some people are led to Christ from people telling them they are going to hell. To me, that has always been the biggest turn off about pastors. Maybe it's because it's brought up so often? I feel the focus should be on God's love rather than the punishment for not believing in Him. Not that it shouldn't be mentioned, but I hate when pastors make it a main part of every sermon.

2. There are a few here. My whole church believes like this.

Partial suffering = God is just. Eternal banishment = free will.

Pay special attention to the underlined (duh ).

2 Thess 1:6-9 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Rom 2 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

3. You need to relax with that view and grasp the bigger picture. Nobody except God can reach out to save us (Rev 3:20 and 1 Cor 12:3) and nobody except God is responisble for trying to save us. God chooses who and what message to use toward someones salvation / toiling the soil around the heart in hope that they may open it and let Jesus in.

 

[Huntingteckel]

An old poster downplayed my observation on similar topics like this.

Although he is no longer active in this forum: I respect his opinion but not necessarily agree : )

He coined a phrase it “not simply a vegetarian issue” I happen to like the term he used : )
But it is simply a vegetarian issue, IMO.

Paul reprimanded us: there should be no arguing, quarrel…. (in contrast to argument: argument when i use it, am more referring to critical explanation, more of exegesis….

There are Christians who eat not meat.
There are Christians who eat meat.
This 2 groups will never agree: they have to agree to disagree
….. I think it is not a new age philosophy read in one thread….

Why it is possible for there still a Unity, in one Accord, and yet the members agree to disagree?

Common ground:
Both the vegetarian and not vegetarian “does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God”


In the same manner here:
The ECT gives exegesis that that gives glory to God.
The non-ECT gives exegesis that gives glory to God.

I agree that we aren't to quarrel, but quarreling wasn't the point of this thread. I feel that the Annihilationists have presented their views without any quarreling and some holding the opposite view have done very well too. KingJ hasn't had any hint of insult in any of his posts. I'm just using him as an example because he was the last one to respond.

The reason I said "new age philosophy" in the agree to disagree post is because that is what someone told me when I first started posting here. I said we should agree to disagree and he/she refused and said that's new age philosophy. I'm assuming you were talking about me here since I said that a day or two ago and the other was around a month ago.

I do not think that the thread should be stopped. I have said that any thing can be discussed. It is whether it is being discussed from God's Spirit. Intellectualizing is from self. When someone speaks from God's Spirit they do not even know where they will be taken but they will go because God is leading them there.

If you don't understand this. Then pray that through this thread God opens your understanding to His life and Spirit in all things and that He guides you so that you only speak from His will. I am saying put God first. Pray before hearing and speaking, seek Him before hearing and speaking, obey Him before hearing and speaking.

Anyone that is discussing something you disagree with is "intellectualizing?" That's what I see you saying because from your first post you have said you disagree with this view, although you've never looked into it and you feel the need to pray for our deceptive teachings. Maybe I am just too stupid to understand what you're saying. It wouldn't be the first time.

2. There are a few here. My whole church believes like this.

Partial suffering = God is just. Eternal banishment = free will.

Pay special attention to the underlined (duh ).

2 Thess 1:6-9 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Rom 2 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

3. You need to relax with that view and grasp the bigger picture. Nobody except God can reach out to save us (Rev 3:20 and 1 Cor 12:3) and nobody except God is responisble for trying to save us. God chooses who and what message to use toward someones salvation / toiling the soil around the heart in hope that they may open it and let Jesus in.

I have just never met someone that believed that. What denomination church do you attend?

I like the verses you posted. It's verses like that that make me feel like God is truly fair, in the sense of eye for an eye, rather than the traditional view.

I know God is the one who saves us. I've just seen a ton of people refuse to listen any further after being berated and told they are going to hell because they're a filthy sinner, that's all.

 

[God calls me Olivia]

I agree that we aren't to quarrel, but quarreling wasn't the point of this thread. I feel that the Annihilationists have presented their views without any quarreling and some holding the opposite view have done very well too. KingJ hasn't had any hint of insult in any of his posts. I'm just using him as an example because he was the last one to respond.

The reason I said "new age philosophy" in the agree to disagree post is because that is what someone told me when I first started posting here. I said we should agree to disagree and he/she refused and said that's new age philosophy. I'm assuming you were talking about me here since I said that a day or two ago and the other was around a month ago.




Anyone that is discussing something you disagree with is "intellectualizing?" That's what I see you saying because from your first post you have said you disagree with this view, although you've never looked into it and you feel the need to pray for our deceptive teachings. Maybe I am just too stupid to understand what you're saying. It wouldn't be the first time.




I have just never met someone that believed that. What denomination church do you attend?

I like the verses you posted. It's verses like that that make me feel like God is truly fair, in the sense of eye for an eye, rather than the traditional view.

I know God is the one who saves us. I've just seen a ton of people refuse to listen any further after being berated and told they are going to hell because they're a filthy sinner, that's all.

This is not true. I started on this post because God told me to, but as I said earlier I realized that the deception He wanted me to speak about was the lack of love although I believe this theory to be deceptive, the intellectualizing (out of God's Spirit) is the reason God had me on this post. You are defending the thread, but have said nothing about yourself submitting to God. Nevertheless my reason in being her is obedience to God's will.

 

[Huntingteckel]

This is not true. I started on this post because God told me to, but as I said earlier I realized that the deception He wanted me to speak about was the lack of love although I believe this theory to be deceptive, the intellectualizing (out of God's Spirit) is the reason God had me on this post. You are defending the thread, but have said nothing about yourself submitting to God. Nevertheless my reason in being her is obedience to God's will.

The lack of love seems to be very one sided, and it's not from the side you support. What are you talking about? Why would you not think I am submitting myself to God? Because I don't hold the same view as you?

 

[MichaelH]

The different views of punishment for a conditionalist are listed in #445. I've never heard any other options, and the important thing to remember is that the final punishment is death (which is eternal because that death will never be reversed- no second ressurection).

It's true that there are some differences in opinion on the nature of Sheol/Hades, but I don't see how that makes our view of final punishment any less strong (Evangelical Christians have all kinds of differences of opinion on all kinds of subjects).

We all believe that Hades/Sheol and Gehenna are seperate.

I think you're the only person here who thinks people will go to the litteral Valley of the Sons of Hinnom. I've never heard that argument advanced, and I think it's far more likely that Gehenna was used to illustrate to the people of Jerusalem the nature of Hell (which they would have understood immediately from old testament references in which it is referred to as a place of slaughter- it would certainly be a huge leap from there to associating it with a place of eternal torment).

In any case, Gehenna is clearly the place of final punishment, as is the Lake of Fire, so even if it is in the litteral Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, I guess that's where the lake of fire will be as well...

As much as i would like to make "Gehenna" a place of fire and torment, there is just no scripture support to do that. In fact Jesus only mentioned the place to the Jews as a example as you mentioned,

Gehinnom (Hebrew) Were two valley's that surrounded the old city. According to scripture from Joshua and on, the place was a evil place where children were thrown in the fire for the god Molach.

Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.
(2Ch 28:3)

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Hinnom is translated Gehenna in Greek.

According to what I have read about the history of the place and part of this area had a fire that burned and was kept burning for years. It's first mentioned in Joshua and mentioned years later by Jeremiah. This fire not only sacrificed alive children but also many thrown in alive. The Jews knew of the horror of this place.

Now some say Jesus was refering to the Lake of fire. I can't find any scriptural connetion to it being the Lake of fire.

In fact, Jesus quoted Isaiah, and used I believe a place the Jews knew about called Gehenna to illustrate a point.

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:23-24)

This event in Isaiah comes at the end, it takes place on land where the Lord destroys the sinners.

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
(Rev 19:21)

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(Mat 24:27-28)

There is no scriptural connection to the Valley of Hinnom being the Lake of fire, but more of Jesus using a physical place to describe Hades (Sheol)

Jews only knew Sheol as a place of the dead, not a place where fire and torment was located. They also had an expression and understanding that in Sheol there was a place where the righteous dead waited. They called this Abraham's Bosom.


The soul destroyed?

We have one verse Jesus said....... Fear not men

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We don't build a doctrine on just one scripture. Peter said no scripture is understood privately. Isa 28 tells us to compare line upon line, here a little there a little.

Jesus said............ Don't fear them that kill the body, but not able to kill the soul. Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in the Valley of the sons of Hinnom........... Gehenna

I have a few issues taking this one verse to mean God destroys souls in the lake of fire.

One, Jesus said God is able to do so......................... Jesus did not Say God will, but is able. Same type of talk where God said is anything to hard for me. Jesus praying to God saying all things are possible, take this cup from me. Same when Jesus said with man it's impossible, but with God all things are possible.

Jesus used the Word for power to do it. He did not say God would do it. What words are used are also important.

Jesus also did not mention a thing about the spirit man being destroyed, and no scripture does.

I would need ANOTHER SCRIPTURE WITNESS AND I WOULD NEED ONE THAT DENOTES THE SPIRIT OF MAN IS ALSO DESTROYED.

All scripture about being cast in the lake of fire, thrown in Hades, does not have any scripture denoting people are destroyed in these places. We do have scripture denoting eternal punishment and eternal separation from God in more than one place.

We need to compare and not add things that are not there.

 

[Panda]

This topic is about Annihilationism, and a general discussion regarding the negative consequences of a life not lived in Christ. We need to keep this topic to that and not introduce a new discussion regarding intellectual discussion versus Spiritual discernment. So far, this topic has been civil. I'm shocked by that, but nevertheless it has happened.

 

[God calls me Olivia]

The lack of love seems to be very one sided, and it's not from the side you support. What are you talking about? Why would you not think I am submitting myself to God? Because I don't hold the same view as you?

Huntingteckel, if you want to understand me you need to hear what I said from God's Spirit. Have you prayed before speaking? Have you sought God before speaking?

 

[Huntingteckel]

This topic is about Annihilationism, and a general discussion regarding the negative consequences of a life not lived in Christ. We need to keep this topic to that and not introduce a new discussion regarding intellectual discussion versus Spiritual discernment. So far, this topic has been civil. I'm shocked by that, but nevertheless it has happened.

It has taken a civil turn! I'm so happy!

As much as i would like to make "Gehenna" a place of fire and torment, there is just no scripture support to do that. In fact Jesus only mentioned the place to the Jews as a example as you mentioned,

Gehinnom (Hebrew) Were two valley's that surrounded the old city. According to scripture from Joshua and on, the place was a evil place where children were thrown in the fire for the god Molach.

Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.
(2Ch 28:3)

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Hinnom is translated Gehenna in Greek.

According to what I have read about the history of the place and part of this area had a fire that burned and was kept burning for years. It's first mentioned in Joshua and mentioned years later by Jeremiah. This fire not only sacrificed alive children but also many thrown in alive. The Jews knew of the horror of this place.

Now some say Jesus was refering to the Lake of fire. I can't find any scriptural connetion to it being the Lake of fire.

In fact, Jesus quoted Isaiah, and used I believe a place the Jews knew about called Gehenna to illustrate a point.

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:23-24)

This event in Isaiah comes at the end, it takes place on land where the Lord destroys the sinners.

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
(Rev 19:21)

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(Mat 24:27-28)

There is no scriptural connection to the Valley of Hinnom being the Lake of fire, but more of Jesus using a physical place to describe Hades (Sheol)

Jews only knew Sheol as a place of the dead, not a place where fire and torment was located. They also had an expression and understanding that in Sheol there was a place where the righteous dead waited. They called this Abraham's Bosom.


The soul destroyed?

We have one verse Jesus said....... Fear not men

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We don't build a doctrine on just one scripture. Peter said no scripture is understood privately. Isa 28 tells us to compare line upon line, here a little there a little.

Jesus said............ Don't fear them that kill the body, but not able to kill the soul. Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in the Valley of the sons of Hinnom........... Gehenna

I have a few issues taking this one verse to mean God destroys souls in the lake of fire.

One, Jesus said God is able to do so......................... Jesus did not Say God will, but is able. Same type of talk where God said is anything to hard for me. Jesus praying to God saying all things are possible, take this cup from me. Same when Jesus said with man it's impossible, but with God all things are possible.

Jesus used the Word for power to do it. He did not say God would do it. What words are used are also important.

Jesus also did not mention a thing about the spirit man being destroyed, and no scripture does.

I would need ANOTHER SCRIPTURE WITNESS AND I WOULD NEED ONE THAT DENOTES THE SPIRIT OF MAN IS ALSO DESTROYED.

All scripture about being cast in the lake of fire, thrown in Hades, does not have any scripture denoting people are destroyed in these places. We do have scripture denoting eternal punishment and eternal separation from God in more than one place.

We need to compare and not add things that are not there.

If you're saying that Gehenna is not actually hell, then Jesus never spoke about hell other than saying there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in the "outer darkness," which doesn't imply eternal conscious torment. Hades is the Greek for Sheol, so the rich man wasn't in hell. This is proved by the verses I posted earlier about the righteous going into Sheol in the Old Testament.

I posted earlier most of the verses that say the wicked "perish." In the Old and New Testament the wicked "perish" or "die" or are "destroyed," so we aren't basing our whole belief on that one verse.

 

[God calls me Olivia]

This topic is about Annihilationism, and a general discussion regarding the negative consequences of a life not lived in Christ. We need to keep this topic to that and not introduce a new discussion regarding intellectual discussion versus Spiritual discernment. So far, this topic has been civil. I'm shocked by that, but nevertheless it has happened.

I said what I said because God wanted me to. If you want to ban me as well, I really do not care, for I am only on this forum because God has wanted me on it. If you have a judgment against me, I stand in God's presence and will.

 

[Huntingteckel]

Huntingteckel, if you want to understand me you need to hear what I said from God's Spirit. Have you prayed before speaking? Have you sought God before speaking?

If you want, you can PM me and we can talk there. I don't mind talking but this is derailing the thread.

 

[Panda]

I said what I said because God wanted me to. If you want to ban me as well, I really do not care, for I am only on this forum because God has wanted me on it. If you have a judgment against me, I stand in God's presence and will.

The only judgement I have is that you keep this topic to the current topic. If you cannot do that, then I ask that you discuss this subject elsewhere. You have said what you needed to say here, and I have not deleted it, so you have fulfilled your intent.

 

[Andrew Manuel]

As much as i would like to make "Gehenna" a place of fire and torment, there is just no scripture support to do that. In fact Jesus only mentioned the place to the Jews as a example as you mentioned,

Gehinnom (Hebrew) Were two valley's that surrounded the old city. According to scripture from Joshua and on, the place was a evil place where children were thrown in the fire for the god Molach.

Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.
(2Ch 28:3)

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Hinnom is translated Gehenna in Greek.

According to what I have read about the history of the place and part of this area had a fire that burned and was kept burning for years. It's first mentioned in Joshua and mentioned years later by Jeremiah. This fire not only sacrificed alive children but also many thrown in alive. The Jews knew of the horror of this place.

Now some say Jesus was refering to the Lake of fire. I can't find any scriptural connetion to it being the Lake of fire.

In fact, Jesus quoted Isaiah, and used I believe a place the Jews knew about called Gehenna to illustrate a point.

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:23-24)

This event in Isaiah comes at the end, it takes place on land where the Lord destroys the sinners.

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
(Rev 19:21)

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(Mat 24:27-28)

There is no scriptural connection to the Valley of Hinnom being the Lake of fire, but more of Jesus using a physical place to describe Hades (Sheol)

Jews only knew Sheol as a place of the dead, not a place where fire and torment was located. They also had an expression and understanding that in Sheol there was a place where the righteous dead waited. They called this Abraham's Bosom.


The soul destroyed?

We have one verse Jesus said....... Fear not men

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We don't build a doctrine on just one scripture. Peter said no scripture is understood privately. Isa 28 tells us to compare line upon line, here a little there a little.

Jesus said............ Don't fear them that kill the body, but not able to kill the soul. Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in the Valley of the sons of Hinnom........... Gehenna

I have a few issues taking this one verse to mean God destroys souls in the lake of fire.

One, Jesus said God is able to do so......................... Jesus did not Say God will, but is able. Same type of talk where God said is anything to hard for me. Jesus praying to God saying all things are possible, take this cup from me. Same when Jesus said with man it's impossible, but with God all things are possible.

Jesus used the Word for power to do it. He did not say God would do it. What words are used are also important.

Jesus also did not mention a thing about the spirit man being destroyed, and no scripture does.

I would need ANOTHER SCRIPTURE WITNESS AND I WOULD NEED ONE THAT DENOTES THE SPIRIT OF MAN IS ALSO DESTROYED.

All scripture about being cast in the lake of fire, thrown in Hades, does not have any scripture denoting people are destroyed in these places. We do have scripture denoting eternal punishment and eternal separation from God in more than one place.

We need to compare and not add things that are not there.

Concerning the spirit of man, first I don't think the Bible intends the spirit to be seen as a seperate part (the word translated 'spirit' also means 'breath'), but let's assume it is...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."

This seems to leave three possibilities:

1) The spirit (breath) continues to live with God.
2) The spirit (breath) returns to its original state (as the body does). Our original state before being created was non-existence.
3) We breathe our last breath.

This passage can only give a partial answer (if that...), as it refers to all human beings, and so no doubt refers to the intermediate state...

Which passages do you believe show that the spirit of man is tormented forever in the lake of fire?

*Edit*

Supposing we are body, soul and spirit, surely the function each would be more or less as follows:

Body- our physical being
Soul- the centre of emotion and thought (our psychological being)
Spirit- the life force that drives the two others.

In that case, if the spirit alone survived (body and soul having been completely destroyed by God- Matt 10:28), I don't see how it could undergo torment (or even truly be conscious) because both psychological and physical pain would depend on the other two constituents. Just a thought!

 

[MichaelH]

Why would I need to prove something that I have NEVER stated? Yes, Jesus WAS referring to the Valley of Hinnom. If you watched my video, you would have seen an entire section where I discuss the Valley of Hinnom, starting at 27:22 and running to 35:49. There is over eight minutes of content where I quote all of the old testament and new testament passages regarding the Valley of Hinnom.

What are YOU saying? Are you saying that when Jesus refers to Gehenna that He is NOT speaking of eternal punishment in hell?? Because if so, I'd like to know what Mitspa thinks of that!

However, I CAN prove from Scripture that Jesus' references to Gehenna are about MORE than just the physical place. Mark 9:43 states that the fires of Gehenna are unquenchable. It is referred to as unquenchable fire, where the worm will not die (quoting Isaiah 66).


Mark 9:43, 48

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell (Gehenna), to the unquenchable fire... where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

Jesus is referring to Gehenna as unquenchable fire. And He presents that as the alternative to entering into life. Either you can enter into life, or you can go to Gehenna. So when Jesus refers to Gehenna, He is referring to a physical place, the Valley of Hinnom, AND He is referring to final punishment. Do you disagree??

Jesus said Gehenna which is exactly Hebrew for Hinnom, and place know far back as Joshua. All Jesus said is that don't fear man that can kill the body, but Fear the One that has the ability and power kill your body and soul in Hinnom.

Jesus used the Word
dunamai

Which means can, Might, able, power............... If Jesus Meant God will, He would have used Didomi or something.
We would still need one more scripture witness though about the soul's destruction and spirit in Hell or Lake of fire to make a doctrine.

I never said Jesus was not making a connection to hell. You also did not answer my questions way, way above and bulking in your own video over the part in revelation. (Not very impressive)

You has also not provided any scripture about a soul being destroyed, Jesus just said God is Able to do it, and in many place we see God is more than able, but never did. (such as Jesus praying in the Garden)

You would need at least two scripture witness that state Soul and spirit are destroyed in the Lake of fire, In Hades or on the moon for that matter.

You have ZERO, and to make a doctrine based on ZERO is not smart.

I will show you several places though about eternal torment that does not stop. We can re-post again if your not getting it yet.

You gave a bunch of scriptures about people perish, and destroyed......... Where is that at Ken?
You skipped over the many where it's mentioned they are destroyed on land............ Go figure.

If you were not so goofy, I might even get aggravated at you, but I just feel bad for you.

You also missed the classic ones the pro's use............ to perpetuate false doctrine........... Puzzling.

 

[Andrew Manuel]

Jesus said Gehenna which is exactly Hebrew for Hinnom, and place know far back as Joshua. All Jesus said is that don't fear man that can kill the body, but Fear the One that has the ability and power kill your body and soul in Hinnom.

Jesus used the Word
dunamai

Which means can, Might, able, power............... If Jesus Meant God will, He would have used Didomi or something.
We would still need one more scripture witness though about the soul's destruction and spirit in Hell or Lake of fire to make a doctrine.

I never said Jesus was not making a connection to hell. You also did not answer my questions way, way above and bulking in your own video over the part in revelation. (Not very impressive)

You has also not provided any scripture about a soul being destroyed, Jesus just said God is Able to do it, and in many place we see God is more than able, but never did. (such as Jesus praying in the Garden)

You would need at least two scripture witness that state Soul and spirit are destroyed in the Lake of fire, In Hades or on the moon for that matter.

You have ZERO, and to make a doctrine based on ZERO is not smart.

I will show you several places though about eternal torment that does not stop. We can re-post again if your not getting it yet.

You gave a bunch of scriptures about people perish, and destroyed......... Where is that at Ken?
You skipped over the many where it's mentioned they are destroyed on land............ Go figure.

If you were not so goofy, I might even get aggravated at you, but I just feel bad for you.

You also missed the classic ones the pro's use............ to perpetuate false doctrine........... Puzzling.

Sure, Jesus says to fear him who CAN destroy body and soul, but what would be the sense in saying fear him who CAN but WON'T... The verse wouldn't make any more sense than if it said "fear him who can make you into a banana"!

 

[Andrew Manuel]

Jesus said Gehenna which is exactly Hebrew for Hinnom, and place know far back as Joshua. All Jesus said is that don't fear man that can kill the body, but Fear the One that has the ability and power kill your body and soul in Hinnom.

Jesus used the Word
dunamai

Which means can, Might, able, power............... If Jesus Meant God will, He would have used Didomi or something.
We would still need one more scripture witness though about the soul's destruction and spirit in Hell or Lake of fire to make a doctrine.

I never said Jesus was not making a connection to hell. You also did not answer my questions way, way above and bulking in your own video over the part in revelation. (Not very impressive)

You has also not provided any scripture about a soul being destroyed, Jesus just said God is Able to do it, and in many place we see God is more than able, but never did. (such as Jesus praying in the Garden)

You would need at least two scripture witness that state Soul and spirit are destroyed in the Lake of fire, In Hades or on the moon for that matter.

You have ZERO, and to make a doctrine based on ZERO is not smart.

I will show you several places though about eternal torment that does not stop. We can re-post again if your not getting it yet.

You gave a bunch of scriptures about people perish, and destroyed......... Where is that at Ken?
You skipped over the many where it's mentioned they are destroyed on land............ Go figure.

If you were not so goofy, I might even get aggravated at you, but I just feel bad for you.

You also missed the classic ones the pro's use............ to perpetuate false doctrine........... Puzzling.

Ok, so two passages that state that the wicked are completely destroyed by the lake of fire (good job Mitspa is gone- he'd probably have a heart attack seeing me using the exact verse he repeated numerous times to support annihilationism! ):

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND DEATH. And if anyone's name was NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:14-15)

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the SECOND DEATH." (Rev 21:8)

Death cannot be something they consciously experience forever, as both death and sin are destined to be completely destroyed:

"The last enemy to be destroyed is death." (1 Cor 15:26)

 

[MichaelH]

Sure, Jesus says to fear him who CAN destroy body and soul, but what would be the sense in saying fear him who CAN but WON'T... The verse wouldn't make any more sense than if it said "fear him who can make you into a banana"!

Well that was my point....................... We see lots of Place we are told With God, nothing is to hard. Now just need that one more scripture to compare without taking one out of it's setting to prove that God will destroy spirit and soul in hell.

We have no other witness in the Word, so we don't make doctrines out of it.

It's like Judas hung himself and we are suppose to go hang ourselves................. NOT.

or like Jesus in Mark 16 saying you shall take up serpents and some dumb Pastor died again preaching with rattlesnakes just last month................ it's like............. hello, anyone home?

This is what happens just taking one lone scripture and trying to get it to say something it does not specifically say, Like God WILL destroy body and soul in Hinnom, Hell, Gehenna........ anyway......

For me, there is not any evidence to teach people here is no eternal punishment that includes suffering............... It's just not a good idea.

Dan 12:2 says some will wake to everlasting contempt.......... that is an emotion they endure forever and that is just one out of several.

 

[Andrew Manuel]

Well that was my point....................... We see lots of Place we are told With God, nothing is to hard. Now just need that one more scripture to compare without taking one out of it's setting to prove that God will destroy spirit and soul in hell.

We have no other witness in the Word, so we don't make doctrines out of it.

Come on, you can't in all honesty claim we only have one verse to defend our point of view. There are single posts on here with multiple verses.

It's like Judas hung himself and we are suppose to go hang ourselves................. NOT.

Because the Bible teaches us to follow Judas's example?????

For me, there is not any evidence to teach people here is no eternal punishment that includes suffering............... It's just not a good idea.

First, need I repeat that we do believe in eternal punishment (eternal in its consequences, just as eternal redemption is eternal in its consequences- I mean come on, how else would 'eternal destruction' even be possible????) And for me there is not enough evidence to teach people that the wicked will be tormented forever (and by saying not enough evidence I'm being generous ).

Dan 12:2 says some will wake to everlasting contempt.......... that is an emotion they endure forever and that is just one out of several.

Actually 'contempt' is not an emotion someone feels of themselves but of others- look in a dictionary if you don't believe me!!

 

[Huntingteckel]

Well that was my point....................... We see lots of Place we are told With God, nothing is to hard. Now just need that one more scripture to compare without taking one out of it's setting to prove that God will destroy spirit and soul in hell.

We have no other witness in the Word, so we don't make doctrines out of it.

It's like Judas hung himself and we are suppose to go hang ourselves................. NOT.

or like Jesus in Mark 16 saying you shall take up serpents and some dumb Pastor died again preaching with rattlesnakes just last month................ it's like............. hello, anyone home?

This is what happens just taking one lone scripture and trying to get it to say something it does not specifically say, Like God WILL destroy body and soul in Hinnom, Hell, Gehenna........ anyway......

For me, there is not any evidence to teach people here is no eternal punishment that includes suffering............... It's just not a good idea.

Dan 12:2 says some will wake to everlasting contempt.......... that is an emotion they endure forever and that is just one out of several.

Michael, did you put me on your ignore list?

 

[Ken Bussell]

You have not posted anything on this forum except this subject. Your main words are destruction and perish. What is the main point of speaking what you believe to be knowledge without love and you cannot say it is love because someone in the Spirit and even often those out of the Spirit know the difference. Where are you on the other threads helping the low in heart? How is your focus on the negative bringing people to the love of God which can really transform them spiritually?

How is this subject so important, more important than the bringing of sheep into the fold. The emphasis and study on this is time that could have been spent loving others. Prove your point. You win! But with who? Yourself. Not God for God is love.

I did not create this thread. I simply posted to it to help someone who was asking questions. Although I believe my postings here have been kind and civil at all times, I admit that I have been deeply hurt by the terrible things that have been said about me. If that hurt has shown through in some of my postings, I apologize. I am thankful that moderators have come in and helped with the worst offenders. Others have become more respectful in the process, and the thread has now become much more healthy. For a while it was far from it.

This subject is not more important. It is a non-essential. That is what makes the bashing and insulting even more inappropriate.

 

[Ken Bussell]

You has also not provided any scripture about a soul being destroyed, Jesus just said God is Able to do it, and in many place we see God is more than able, but never did. (such as Jesus praying in the Garden)

You would need at least two scripture witness that state Soul and spirit are destroyed in the Lake of fire, In Hades or on the moon for that matter.

Okay, here's three.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

This is the starting verse and has been discussed at length. Your contention seems to be that the verse only says that God can, not that God will. So here's a verse that says He will.

Acts 3:23
And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.

The prophet this verse is talking about is Jesus, and the context is "the time of restoring all things" (verse 21), the end times. Now some may want to adjust the definitions of "soul" and "destroyed" in order to fit the ECT doctrine. But the plain meaning is that the soul (psyche, consciousness) will be destroyed (destroyed completely, eliminated). It is not a statement of God's ability. It is a promise of His intent.

And here's another verse that implies the destruction of the soul. Again, not the possibility (could be destroyed), but the certainty ("are destroyed").

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

The ECT view is that all souls are preserved, some in heaven and some in hell. This verse says that only the souls of the faithful will be preserved. The implication here is that those without faith have will have their souls destroyed.

If you were not so goofy, I might even get aggravated at you, but I just feel bad for you.

You also missed the classic ones the pro's use............ to perpetuate false doctrine........... Puzzling.

I'm glad you don't think I'm a professional perpetuator of false doctrine. Nonetheless, these types of comments are personally insulting, do not add to the discussion, and need to be moderated.