Auschwitz: God On Trial

Please read my posts, please: I will not join you in a debate on God and civil authority or politics.
I also do not take as a given any one is a Bible authority, so you're saying"I'm only quoting Scripture" is a straw-man argument, Everyone on this forum quotes Scripture. It's how it's understood that matters.

Please try to relax.
No sweat from me Rusty.

There is no debate to be had. Either God said it and meant it or He didn't. That my friend is the end of the debate.

Quoteing Scripture makes NO ONE an authority whatsoever. It is simply a basis for truth from the mouth of God.
We eith believe it or reject it.
 
No....um... the kind you are doing yet again above.

The Incarnation is a thread I might bring up sometime...What's your hurry?

Why not show us where these "spiritualizations and symbolizings " are on this thread that you claim I have used?

Perhaps you don't know what a logical fallacy actually is.
No Rusty you did not sybolize Scriptures on this thread that I am aware of, BUT you did on another thread on the Revelation. You in fact refused to answer my question on whether the 144,ooo were literal or a symbol. That is what I was referring to. You said you would answer on another thread but so far you haven't.
 
No Rusty you did not sybolize Scriptures on this thread that I am aware of, BUT you did on another thread on the Revelation. You in fact refused to answer my question on whether the 144,ooo were literal or a symbol. That is what I was referring to. You said you would answer on another thread but so far you haven't.
I know I didn't....so YES you are creating red herrings/smoke screens on this thread about what I am saying...Please stop!

Make a thread, man....If you want a topic on the 144,00o...make a thread....I'm tired of all of this detouring and sideshowing..Maybe I will participate...but with all this static form you...maybe I won't.

You are too much into highjacking others threads....IMO.
 
No sweat from me Rusty.

There is no debate to be had. Either God said it and meant it or He didn't. That my friend is the end of the debate.

Quoteing Scripture makes NO ONE an authority whatsoever. It is simply a basis for truth from the mouth of God.
We eith believe it or reject it.
Great.... so please stop trying to involve me in political and "headship of the state" discussions...Thanks....
 
I don't see God as a slow "drawer", Major when it comes to miracles. Although I have heard faith-healers make that statement on occasion.
I see no other biblical miracles when it include masses of peoples taking over 70 year to actually occur.
Jericho, the Red Sea, the destruction of the Flood, all the OT miracles I can think of were not done in "slo-mo."
Rusty, you are I am sure a wonderful Christian man and I love you. However I must say that your opinions are shall I say differant and you tend to be rather unique in your understanding of Scripture.

The idea that God has to do something quickly in order for it to be a miracle is shall I say....challenging to grasp.

The fact is, I have never ever heard anyone say such a thing and the Bible examples would be to many to post on this site.

I am going to agree with calvin......I have to move away from this thread and leave it all to you and others who enjoy this kind of communication.
 
That is your choice.....see you elsewhere. I will not fault you for not wanting to be in a unique discussion of apparent interest to others Christians thread.
 
Sigh.....What did my post quote Rusty.. Ohhh the opening bit that said "I_Survived_The_Eighties said: "I mean.
Isn't it reasonable that the material contained within that quote would form the basis of what was to follow?
Anyway I done with this thread....go take a cold shower and clear your head
calvin..............is that YOU in in the avatar????
 
"Who is a Jew? A Jew is anyone who has a Jewish mother or who converted to Judaism in conformity with Halacha, Jewish religious law. This definition alone excludes racism. Judaism does not seek converts, but those who do convert are accepted on a basis of equality. Let us see how far this goes. Some of the most eminent and respected rabbis were converts to Judaism.
Moses's wife and Ruth are good examples here.

Apart from the Zionists, the only ones who consistently considered the Jews a race were the Nazis. And they only served to prove the stupidity and irrationality of racism. There was no way to prove racially whether a Mrs. Muller or a Mr. Meyer were Jews or Aryans (the Nazi term for non-Jewish Germans. The only way to decide whether a person was Jewish was to trace the religious affiliation of the parents or grandparents. So much for the this racial nonsense.

In what way are the Jews a "chosen people"? Every Jewish man anywhere and at any time when called to the reading of the Torah says, "Who has chosen us from all the peoples and gave us His Torah." This is the way in which the Jews are chosen. The Jewish people are chosen not for domination over others, not for conquest or warfare, but to serve G-d and thus to serve mankind. "And the hands are the hands of Esau," has been traditionally interpreted to mean that while "the voice is Jacob's," the hands- - symbolizing violence - are Esau's. Thus physical violence is not a tradition or a value of the Jews. The task for which the Jewish people were chosen is not to set an example of military superiority or technical achievements, but to seek perfection in moral behavior and spiritual purity. Of all the crimes of political Zionism, the worst and most basic, and which explains all its other misdeeds, is that from its beginning Zionism has sought to separate the Jewish people from their G-d, to render the divine covenant null and void, and to substitute a "modern" statehood and fraudulent sovereignty for the lofty ideals of the Jewish people."

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/differencejudzion.html
 

Glomung

Account Closed
An interesting article that has some bearing on the OP
http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel...ionisms-ethnic-cleansing-of-palestine/5326140

an excerpt:
Probably more surprising than anything else was not the silence of the world as Zionist ethnic cleansing was taking place in Palestine, but the silence of the Jews in Palestine. They knew what had happened to Jews in Nazi Europe, and some might even have seen it for themselves, yet they had no scruples in doing almost the same thing to the Palestinians.”
 
Yes...I agree, Glomung. Frankly, those who do not investigate secular Zionist history and yet at the same time want to believe God participates in their regime need to reflect on what a spiritual life really is in the real world.
 
Rusty, hmmmm, a strange thread. Anyway. It took 40 years for God to bring His people from Egypt to the Promised Land way back in the day and that was WITH miracles. And now it's taking 65 years to bring them back WITHOUT miracles and is still an ongoing process. So what? The world they left back when Moses led them out was hostile. Today, most of the world is full of alluring temptations. So yes. Jews are like everyone else. Why leave the "good life" to live in a war zone surrounded by murderous Muslims?
It's a miracle Israel exists today at all. Just reading how a few Israeli tanks held off the Syrian army on the Golan during the Yom Kippor War was a miracle to me. How Israel even survived that war was a miracle.
The fact that the Jews moved their capital to it's rightful place, Jerusalem, from Tel Aviv points to religious influence beyond a purely "secular" Israel. Will you call Israel secular whenever the Temple is rebuilt?
I only want to be known as a CHRISTIAN. I want to be known as such whether I were friends with Muslims, Jews, Hindus or anyone else. Saying you are considered a Muslim with your Muslim friends and Jewish with your Jewish friends and then seem to be proud of that strikes me as chameleon like. Shouldn't they know you as a devout follower of Christ and nothing short of that?
The Bible is the Living Word of God. It is as alive today as it was when written. It is why you can look at a verse one day and then years later look at it again then see it in a way that speaks to your spirit differently than it did the time before. It is alive.
A prophecy can speak to a nation one way at the time it was given and still have relevence years and years later. Maybe not exactly to that particular situation but to one much like it.
I am a "Christian Zionist". I always was from the time I first read the Bible and always will be. It's THEIR land God gave it to them. Now He has put them in their land, taken them out, them put them back. That is between God and them.
As for me. I know my place. I am a co-heir. I am adopted. First the Jew THEN the gentile. I will seat myself at the last of the table. Better yet, I will eat the crumbs from the childrens table that fall to the floor. God will bless those who bless them and curse those who curse them.
America has, for the most part blessed Israel so ,in turn, America is blessed. Soon America will turn it's back on Israel and God's judgement will follow.
OK. Why did God allow the Jews to be persecuted? Ryan Lepko addressed that. The Jews choose to remain under the Law. So by the Law they are treated. With no Temple they have a very limited way in which to adhere to that Law. Soon there will be a Temple. Then I would think a great migration of Jews back to Israel.
Why did "christians" allow the massacre during WWII? Simple. These "christian" leaders wore robes, carried bibles and had crosses around their necks. That doesn't make them Christian. They were NAZIS. Any "christian" present where any of this occured was purely looking after their own skin. They will answer for it.
 
Well thanks for your opinion Dan, but I must question several theories you have:

A.
Ryan Lepko addressed that. The Jews choose to remain under the Law. So by the Law they are treated. With no Temple they have a very limited way in which to adhere to that Law. Soon there will be a Temple. Then I would think a great migration of Jews back to Israel.
Ummm no. Only Hasidim/Orthodox Jews attempt to keep the Law (which to them is much more than the universal 10 Commandments) and they are a tiny minority in worldwide Jewry. Study up on modern Jewry and you will see that the vast majority are at best liberal and in no way attempting to be Law-keepers.


B.
America has, for the most part blessed Israel so ,in turn, America is blessed. Soon America will turn it's back on Israel and God's judgement will follow.
This "most part" is pretty recent. Take a gander:


"Whenever Israel’s supporters today speak of a “special relationship” with the US that is supposedly graven in stone, it is useful to remember that something very different existed when Israel came into existence in 1948 on the gutted carcass of Palestine. ...Prominent American Jews felt no obligation to endorse Israel or Israeli leaders, no matter what happened. Dozens (including Albert Einstein) signed a letter published in the New York Times in 1948 protesting the arrival of Menachem Begin and condemning his actions. And the general American public was largely indifferent to what happened in the Middle East.The US government echoed these sentiments. Most Israeli military assistance in the 1950s and well into the 1960s came from a scattering of other countries (e.g., the Israeli aircraft that attacked the USS Liberty in June 1967 were procured from France), but not from the US – and American economic aid to Israel during those years was extremely limited. It is noteworthy that in the Suez Crisis of 1956, President Eisenhower – who as General Eisenhower had led the Allied forces in the West that broke Nazi Germany, and was more intimately familiar with the actual situation of European Jews in WWII than any other US president before or since – had no qualms at all about ordering Israel (along with Britain and France) to cease operations against Egypt and to withdraw. Nor did President Kennedy (another WWII veteran, albeit a junior one) hesitate to make it absolutely clear to Israeli leaders that he would not support or condone Israel’s acquisition of a national nuclear force .."

C. You question my statement below:
I'm not offended at all..One of my Israeli friends says I'm like a Jew to her; but my Muslim friends think I'm like a Muslim to them.)
1 Co 9:22 o the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Instead of accusing me of being a chameleon, the Christian thing to, IMO, is to ask me what I mean. If you do that I will explain. But if you dare not, I won't.

But I don't blame you for you understanding of this thread, only wonder about your opinions and accusations.
 
A snippet from Prof Wasserstein's interview above:

Well as a matter of fact, in the early period of Zionism, that's to say from the 1890s through to the creation of the State of Israel in 1948, throughout that period, Zionism did not lay great stress on Jerusalem. In fact the early Zionists who came to live in Palestine in the 1880s, 1890s and the early part of the 20th century, tended to look down on Jerusalem, to despise it, to see it as a rather filthy place, as a place that was stuck in a mire of religion and obscurantism, and of course the Jews who did live in Jerusalem who were actually a majority of the population by the late 19th century, as I mentioned, those Jews were anti-Zionists. They were ultra-Orthodox in their religious attitudes and they regarded Zionism as a kind of impious anticipation of the coming of the Messiah. It was only when the Messiah came, they felt, that a Jewish State could be re-established, and until then, the Jews shouldn't do anything to try to hurry up that process. So they were hostile to Zionism. So there was a hostility to Jerusalem built into Zionism, and in fact as late as 1948, when the founders of the Jewish State discussed where the capital of Israel should be, they were by no means of one mind that it should be Jerusalem. In fact, Golda Meir suggested that the capital of Israel should be on Mount Carmel, near Haifa. And David Ben Gurion, who was the first Prime Minister of Israel, suggested that the capital should be in a Jewish settlement in the Negev. In fact of course in the end, Jerusalem was made Israel's capital, but it wasn't its first capital. Its first capital was in Tel Aviv, and it was only later on that Jerusalem was declared the capital.
 
I guess I better state some facts about myself:

My father (see avatar) was raised in Jewish orphanage though was not Jewish himself. He had a life long respect for Jews and right after the WWII visited Israel and did business with them before many other Westerners dared to. He was in the 60's the only Gentile members of a Jewish golf club.
My neighbourhood was a unique on in the 50's where Jew and Gentile were next door neighbors in a wealthy suburb.

I grew up playing and schooling with Jews and never knew anything different (Praise God) other than Marty Winestein was lousy at football.

My closest and oldest pal is a secular Jew. He still calls me long distance monthly.

I have visited and explored the state of Israel, have friends there and rabbinical connections if I need to ask a question of their faith. I went places in those days where now no tourist (let alone a Gentile!) could go, talked to Jews and Muslims alike and immersed myself in modern Israel...alone and with no church group or tour guide.

I read quite a lot and collect books on many topics. Zionism's history is one topic. Middle Eastern history is another. Prophecy is a major one.

I'm just stating these facts as facts, not as feathers in my cap.

My opinions are not off the cuff, unstudied, or denominationally based.
Ugh...I forgot to include: I have attended Sabbath worship in synagogues in the past, and been a guest at Passover Seder.
 
For a Jew to be a jew he only needs a drop of jewish blood to be jewish i was told by his grandmother he is not anything else she grudgingly said to me :giggle: I am part Croatian, part Maori, German and the rest New Zealander or kiwi they say down here So i mention My son have the above with a bit of Jewish added to it. No no no she said it doesn't matter what other blood he has, he is JEWISH!:giggle:
 
Read my other links too. Being a Jew is a religious matter, not racial.
Liz Taylor and Sammy Davis Jr. were Jews by conversion, race being not the key to it all.
 
Look again Eighties my friend:
In modern secular Israel today what constitutes a Jew is highly contested. The following people are Jewish:
From the Arabic nation of Yemen.

Chinese Jews of Kaifeng


African Jews

And the most familiar to Westerners, the European or Ashkenazim Jew

 

Glomung

Account Closed
To be Jewish you only need a drop of Jewish blood?

Then EVERYBODY is Jewish if you take the Old Testament literally.
Was Noah Jewish? I assume so. Is EVERBODY supposedly a descendant of Noah?
Then WE"RE ALL JEWISH! MAZOLTAV! When do we move to Israel?
 
So are 'Hebrew' and 'Jew' completely synonymous?

Isn't "Hebrew" stemming from the bloodline of Abram/ Abraham (Patriarchs)? (Genesis 14:13)

Isn't "Jew"stemming from the practice of 'Judaism' set forth by Moses? (2 Kings 16:6)

Does "Hebrew" mean humans from Adam? So are we all "Hebrews"? Are we all "Jews" that believe in the Creator? Are "Jews" by default misinformed "Christians"? Is this all a bunch of silliness?

So does that mean all "Christians" are "Catholic" by default? (No offense Glomung...)