Biblical literalism is actually a theological view seeking dominance

I grew up in Dispensational literalism (DL). I have considered all the angles of it, and those are included in my thread at 'Teachers Lounge' on Acts 1--4 and the apostles teaching.

There you will find some instances of what DL actually does which are 'moves' to make the text appear to be saying a certain theology's result. Here is a summary: 1, that Acts 1:6 does not prohibit a believer from spending tons of time on trying to figure future events, in particular when Israel's kingdom comes.

2, that Acts 2:30, 31 is actually a case of skipping from the present (the apostles) far into the future. David did not think the resurrection was the enthronement of Christ that meaningfully affects us now.

3, That 3:20's "send Jesus" was an offer to Israel to set up its kingdom then.

4, that 3:21's "heaven must receive" or "keep" is the correct translation of dexasthai. Even major translations have inexplicable done this. It usually means to welcome a person in an honorary reception.

5, that 13:33's "what ever God promised" is actually only about one promise about the resurrection happening, which does not have anything to do with the Davidic kingdom.

6, that 15:14-17's "taking a people from the Gentiles" was either Israel's original calling (God calling Abraham) or was a total surprise development to the early believers, sometimes called 'the mystery' (an interruption in the plan to 'restore Israel's kingdom').

But probably the most effective type of DL that influenced me was 2 things done to Daniel 9, which I will explain here briefly.

First, that 9:24's list of accomplishments by Messiah within the 490 years is not a statement about the Gospel. No, this is something he will do in the millenium. Thus, 'bring in everlasting righteousness' is not related to Romans (see 3:21 etc), but is a period when Israel the race-nation finally practices Torah as intended, aka, a covenant with Israel that is 'new' because the hearts of the people are new. As you can see, it has high stakes because there are now 2 atonement events. The person who believes DL is sure that Christ made atonement for our sins, but will do so again in the millenium, because of 9:24. This is doubling called 'literalism.'

Second, that the 490 years must be broken up. Now, they are already by the phrasing "7 weeks and 62 weeks," leaving 1. But that break is of no consequence; the DL belief is that the final week is split by thousands of years to the future. Even though the leaders of Judaism at Christ's time were concerned that the events might happen in their times (that the city and sanctuary would be ruined), by the normal reading of Daniel 9, DL believes that it is far in the future from that, and this interpretive practice is called 'literalism.'

So after 50 years of listening and having studied these things at the master's level (Regent College, Canada), and interviewing people like John Walvoord personally, I find that DL does these things to the passages involved. This is what is meant by 'literal reading.'
 
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I'm sorry you lost me.
I once attended a church that I found out later taught dispensationalism. I only went a few times but there was something off about it. They had timelines and everything that were kind of confusing.
the 70 years/weeks, the gap, the church age, the triple second comings...ai

I think it's otherwise known as Dominionism or Kingdom Now theology. If you've had 50 years of this teaching and it still hasn't come to pass according to their interpretation of current day events well, I dunno. You'd probably question whether they got their dates right.

So whatever they come up with pretty much distracts from the gospel and presents a false gospel instead.
 
I grew up in Dispensational literalism (DL). I have considered all the angles of it, and those are included in my thread at 'Teachers Lounge' on Acts 1--4 and the apostles teaching.

There's the disconnect. "Dispensational" literalism. Relegating the vantagepoint of literalism into the arena of just another -ism is nothing more than a battering ram tactic that is very unimpressive in its attempts at elevating some other -ism above yet another. As a Biblicist, I remain airborne, meaning that I'm above ground level of such rolling, ram-rod argumentation that may impress others who are not so well versed in the scriptures and proper rules for interpretation. The brands of that fire simply don't reach me. One will have to employ a more robust sets of arguments to get my attention for engagement.

It also bears need for me to also mention that, yes, even those who strive to adhere to the foundational rules for interpretation vary in their views and beliefs about many of the plethora of peripheral concepts of doctrinal import, especially in the arena of eschatology.

So, the idea that literalism is somehow seeking "dominance" is yet another subjective cart of tricks rolling along broad way of discussions and beliefs. When it comes to literalism compared to subjectivism, I'll take literalism any day.

MM
 
There's the disconnect. "Dispensational" literalism. Relegating the vantagepoint of literalism into the arena of just another -ism is nothing more than a battering ram tactic that is very unimpressive in its attempts at elevating some other -ism above yet another. As a Biblicist, I remain airborne, meaning that I'm above ground level of such rolling, ram-rod argumentation that may impress others who are not so well versed in the scriptures and proper rules for interpretation. The brands of that fire simply don't reach me. One will have to employ a more robust sets of arguments to get my attention for engagement.

It also bears need for me to also mention that, yes, even those who strive to adhere to the foundational rules for interpretation vary in their views and beliefs about many of the plethora of peripheral concepts of doctrinal import, especially in the arena of eschatology.

So, the idea that literalism is somehow seeking "dominance" is yet another subjective cart of tricks rolling along broad way of discussions and beliefs. When it comes to literalism compared to subjectivism, I'll take literalism any day.

MM

If you have a specific passage to talk about, it would help. I don't know what you are saying. I don't know what you mean by subjectivism. If anything, the corrections I am making are more objectively text-based (see the example of dexasthai in 3:21) than most people are used to.
 
?
I'm sorry you lost me.
I once attended a church that I found out later taught dispensationalism. I only went a few times but there was something off about it. They had timelines and everything that were kind of confusing.
the 70 years/weeks, the gap, the church age, the triple second comings...ai

I think it's otherwise known as Dominionism or Kingdom Now theology. If you've had 50 years of this teaching and it still hasn't come to pass according to their interpretation of current day events well, I dunno. You'd probably question whether they got their dates right.

So whatever they come up with pretty much distracts from the gospel and presents a false gospel instead.

Dispensationalism is pretty much the opposite of the other two. It is very important to D'ism that the kingdom is not now, because the kingdom is about the race-nation Israel. One of the leaders of D'ism in the last century, Chafer, said that 'the church and Israel are twain, and shall never meet.' Thus great pains are taken to keep them separate down through time (the church/believers get heaven, Israel gets earth, etc), in addition to thinking of the church as a 'surprise' or 'mystery' or 'interruption' direction.
 
A good ex. of the force of DL is in Eph 3:5-6. The mystery can't be that Gentile believers would 'come in' to Israel, elaborated in the whole 2nd half of ch 2. The mystery is how. That is answered by the phrase 'through the Gospel' in v6. Judaism thought it would be through the torah, and sent out worthless missionaries, Mt 23:15. You could say it was actually a mystery to Judaism in particular.

This is the most definitive passage about the mystery, but DL insists that the church itself is the mystery; that no one saw it coming, God was trying to set up Israel's kingdom, no one knew anything about a common fellowship of Gentiles. Thus God is seen as 'owing' a kingdom to Israel, because it was never given them. Thus the 'answer' about the kingdom is the millenium. This line is very strong in their minds; I have been told that I was calling God a liar by not accepting its premise.
 
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A good ex. of the force of DL is in Eph 3:5-6. The mystery can't be that Gentile believers would 'come in' to Israel, elaborated in the whole 2nd half of ch 2. The mystery is how. That is answered by the phrase 'through the Gospel' in v6. Judaism thought it would be through the torah, and sent out worthless missionaries, Mt 23:15. You could say it was actually a mystery to Judaism in particular.

This is the most definitive passage about the mystery, but DL insists that the church itself is the mystery; that no one saw it coming, God was trying to set up Israel's kingdom, no one knew anything about a common fellowship of Gentiles. Thus God is seen as 'owing' a kingdom to Israel, because it was never given them. Thus the 'answer' about the kingdom is the millenium. This line is very strong in their minds; I have been told that I was calling God a liar by not accepting its premise.

Huh? (scratching head) I've never heard anyone make such a claim of the Church replacing Israel except from those who are a part of 'Replacement Theology." That gang seems to etherealize scripture almost into oblivion. Gentile believers are grafted in WITH Israel, not in the place of. Paul had already warned against that nonsense, and yet some today are still parroting that assumption.

MM
 
Huh? (scratching head) I've never heard anyone make such a claim of the Church replacing Israel except from those who are a part of 'Replacement Theology." That gang seems to etherealize scripture almost into oblivion. Gentile believers are grafted in WITH Israel, not in the place of. Paul had already warned against that nonsense, and yet some today are still parroting that assumption.

MM

DL doesn't do replacement. That's anathema to them. They say there has been a postponement, because there are 2 distinct programs running in the Bible: Israel and the church. "All Israel will be saved" is therefore in reference to the race-nation, after the church period, in the millenium.

Replacement theology has been villified by DL since the 90s: for the very reason that it does not see 2 programs. Thus, for clarity, it may be better not to refer to DL, but actually to "2 program theology." That is what Ryrie called it in DISPENSATIONALISM TODAY, a standard text at Dallas TS etc.. He said there is no way around this.

I can't recall a DL person who didn't think that once the church was 'out of the way', God would 'restore the kingdom to Israel' in the millenium. They put a lot of effort into finding the exact moment (before Acts, at the beginning, the middle, the end, etc.) A whole school of thought is now called Mid-Acts Dispensational.
 
If you have a specific passage to talk about, it would help. I don't know what you are saying. I don't know what you mean by subjectivism. If anything, the corrections I am making are more objectively text-based (see the example of dexasthai in 3:21) than most people are used to.

Hello Decoder;

I want to help you, brother, so please take this constructively. A writer/teacher is also a good student and is teachable.

Your reply, "I don't know what you are saying," you have that backwards. The posters of this topic don't know what you're saying.

When someone doesn't understand the other we don't dismiss them with their measure of discipleship. I'm not saying you did, but I'm still going to make this clear to everyone in the Body, and here at Christian Forum Site.

Biblical literalism is actually a theological view seeking dominance is a huge title to swallow and this stimulates questions from the posters so to get a feel of "your interpretation and understanding of Scriptures" leading to a fellowship dialogue.

This isn't rocket science, brother, the Scriptures and God will make it plain to us. As it is, many new and seasoned disciples are already challenged enough with the Word of God.

I suggest you take a step back as the author of this thread, stop relying on other text writers and do away with sub-contextual thought. Between you and God, rethink what you are saying, break down the terminology that aids your presentation (for you) and to help the poster understand your interpretation.

I'm monitoring this thread carefully as well as others. It's our goal to bring the author and reader into understanding of God's Word, and closer to Christ in our daily walk. My personal goal as a servant on staff at CFS is also to keep our fellowship fun.

If you need to address me or the staff with questions, concerns or comments please pm me/us.

God bless you, Decoder and your family.
 
Hello Decoder;

I want to help you, brother, so please take this constructively. A writer/teacher is also a good student and is teachable.

Your reply, "I don't know what you are saying," you have that backwards. The posters of this topic don't know what you're saying.

When someone doesn't understand the other we don't dismiss them with their measure of discipleship. I'm not saying you did, but I'm still going to make this clear to everyone in the Body, and here at Christian Forum Site.

Biblical literalism is actually a theological view seeking dominance is a huge title to swallow and this stimulates questions from the posters so to get a feel of "your interpretation and understanding of Scriptures" leading to a fellowship dialogue.

This isn't rocket science, brother, the Scriptures and God will make it plain to us. As it is, many new and seasoned disciples are already challenged enough with the Word of God.

I suggest you take a step back as the author of this thread, stop relying on other text writers and do away with sub-contextual thought. Between you and God, rethink what you are saying, break down the terminology that aids your presentation (for you) and to help the poster understand your interpretation.

I'm monitoring this thread carefully as well as others. It's our goal to bring the author and reader into understanding of God's Word, and closer to Christ in our daily walk. My personal goal as a servant on staff at CFS is also to keep our fellowship fun.

If you need to address me or the staff with questions, concerns or comments please pm me/us.

God bless you, Decoder and your family.

When 6 passages are mentioned and the responses are all general (not speaking to any of the 6) is not easy to understand the responses. All good conversation stays on the smallest details until they are 'all clear.' Before making generalizations.

It seems that if I have it backwards (when I say that I don't know what they are saying), that I must then know what they are saying. But because of the above reason, I don't. Truly. Until the exact details come.

Blessings to you all and grace,

Decoder
 
When 6 passages are mentioned and the responses are all general (not speaking to any of the 6) is not easy to understand the responses. All good conversation stays on the smallest details until they are 'all clear.' Before making generalizations.

It seems that if I have it backwards (when I say that I don't know what they are saying), that I must then know what they are saying. But because of the above reason, I don't. Truly. Until the exact details come.

Blessings to you all and grace,

Decoder

Decoder;

Say what you will. In the meantime, prayerfully think about what I suggested.

God bless you and your family.
 
What's fascinating is that "consensus" is almost always lacking among Th.D's on just about every known doctrine within and throughout scripture. So, casting aside the 'stars-in-the-eyes' syndrome for those who have numerous letters attached to their names, I do enjoy hearing different people's thoughts on these things, even though I may not accept their personal take on it all. What the first century church expected, even the apostles themselves, is as meaningless as what people may think today. What matters, as I'm sure we all can agree upon, is that the Lord does whatsoever is His good pleasure.

If and when there's a seeming contradiction in what some say in relation to what another thinks he's reading, then it's helpful to quote the verse(s) in question, and the other's words in relation, and discuss there the alleged dichotomy exists.

MM
 
Huh? (scratching head) I've never heard anyone make such a claim of the Church replacing Israel except from those who are a part of 'Replacement Theology." That gang seems to etherealize scripture almost into oblivion. Gentile believers are grafted in WITH Israel, not in the place of. Paul had already warned against that nonsense, and yet some today are still parroting that assumption.

MM

MM............"Replacement Theology" is a requirement of all those of the Preterist position!
 
Welsaid Robert
Hello Decoder;

I want to help you, brother, so please take this constructively. A writer/teacher is also a good student and is teachable.

Your reply, "I don't know what you are saying," you have that backwards. The posters of this topic don't know what you're saying.

When someone doesn't understand the other we don't dismiss them with their measure of discipleship. I'm not saying you did, but I'm still going to make this clear to everyone in the Body, and here at Christian Forum Site.

Biblical literalism is actually a theological view seeking dominance is a huge title to swallow and this stimulates questions from the posters so to get a feel of "your interpretation and understanding of Scriptures" leading to a fellowship dialogue.

This isn't rocket science, brother, the Scriptures and God will make it plain to us. As it is, many new and seasoned disciples are already challenged enough with the Word of God.

I suggest you take a step back as the author of this thread, stop relying on other text writers and do away with sub-contextual thought. Between you and God, rethink what you are saying, break down the terminology that aids your presentation (for you) and to help the poster understand your interpretation.

I'm monitoring this thread carefully as well as others. It's our goal to bring the author and reader into understanding of God's Word, and closer to Christ in our daily walk. My personal goal as a servant on staff at CFS is also to keep our fellowship fun.

If you need to address me or the staff with questions, concerns or comments please pm me/us.

God bless you, Decoder and your family.
Well said Bob!
 
DL doesn't do replacement. That's anathema to them. They say there has been a postponement, because there are 2 distinct programs running in the Bible: Israel and the church. "All Israel will be saved" is therefore in reference to the race-nation, after the church period, in the millenium.

Replacement theology has been villified by DL since the 90s: for the very reason that it does not see 2 programs. Thus, for clarity, it may be better not to refer to DL, but actually to "2 program theology." That is what Ryrie called it in DISPENSATIONALISM TODAY, a standard text at Dallas TS etc.. He said there is no way around this.

I can't recall a DL person who didn't think that once the church was 'out of the way', God would 'restore the kingdom to Israel' in the millenium. They put a lot of effort into finding the exact moment (before Acts, at the beginning, the middle, the end, etc.) A whole school of thought is now called Mid-Acts Dispensational.
It seems to me that with your "DELAY" thesis that you are in fact promoting the "Mid-Acts Disp. view.
According to mid-Acts dispensationalism, or Pauline dispensationalism, the church began with the ministry of the apostle Paul in either Acts 9 (Paul’s conversion) or Acts 13 (Paul’s first missionary journey).

Classical dispensationalism sees a biblical distinction between Israel and the church; mid-Acts dispensationalism moves the dividing line to Acts 9. Before that time, what we might call the “church” was still a Jewish congregation under the law and distinct from what came later: the Gentile church (the body of Christ) under grace.

Mid-Acts dispensationalism or the Grace Movement sees the apostles Peter, James, John, and the rest as still operating under the Old Covenant in Acts 1—8. They were still dutifully keeping the Law and still meeting as a Jewish body in Jerusalem. Peter and the other apostles preached repentance to Israel, but the church age had not yet begun. It was Paul, the “apostle to the Gentiles” (Romans 11:13), to whom the doctrine of the church—and the doctrine of grace—was revealed. It was only after Paul began to minister that the church age actually began. Thus, the only parts of the New Testament that are specifically for the church are the Pauline Epistles. The rest of the New Testament is only directly applicable to Christian living in the way that the Old Testament is. Truth can be learned from it, but it was not written to Christians.

Is THAT what you are suggesting?????????
 
It seems to me that with your "DELAY" thesis that you are in fact promoting the "Mid-Acts Disp. view.
According to mid-Acts dispensationalism, or Pauline dispensationalism, the church began with the ministry of the apostle Paul in either Acts 9 (Paul’s conversion) or Acts 13 (Paul’s first missionary journey).

Classical dispensationalism sees a biblical distinction between Israel and the church; mid-Acts dispensationalism moves the dividing line to Acts 9. Before that time, what we might call the “church” was still a Jewish congregation under the law and distinct from what came later: the Gentile church (the body of Christ) under grace.

Mid-Acts dispensationalism or the Grace Movement sees the apostles Peter, James, John, and the rest as still operating under the Old Covenant in Acts 1—8. They were still dutifully keeping the Law and still meeting as a Jewish body in Jerusalem. Peter and the other apostles preached repentance to Israel, but the church age had not yet begun. It was Paul, the “apostle to the Gentiles” (Romans 11:13), to whom the doctrine of the church—and the doctrine of grace—was revealed. It was only after Paul began to minister that the church age actually began. Thus, the only parts of the New Testament that are specifically for the church are the Pauline Epistles. The rest of the New Testament is only directly applicable to Christian living in the way that the Old Testament is. Truth can be learned from it, but it was not written to Christians.

Is THAT what you are suggesting?????????

Major, another thing I never could figure out is where/when they think it has ever happened that the lamb lays down with the wolf or the lion, and the child can stick their hand into the snakes nest and not be bitten. I mean, these descriptors are so glaringly indicative of the fact that nature itself will be so changed when the Lord reconstitutes nature and the earth in His Millennial Kingdom reign that such things could never be realities in this current state of the world, ever since the fall. At least, that's what the text describes when read for what it says.

MM
 
Major, another thing I never could figure out is where/when they think it has ever happened that the lamb lays down with the wolf or the lion, and the child can stick their hand into the snakes nest and not be bitten. I mean, these descriptors are so glaringly indicative of the fact that nature itself will be so changed when the Lord reconstitutes nature and the earth in His Millennial Kingdom reign that such things could never be realities in this current state of the world, ever since the fall. At least, that's what the text describes when read for what it says.

MM

MM...........I have often asked these folks the very same thing. It is maybe the most insidious of all theologies and I guess that is the reason I attack those who present here to us. And as we have all seen right here.......every one of those people talk in circles and never come out and say what it is that they are trying to say untill they have a hook in the person who is susceptible.

Placing prophecy in the past radically changes one’s overall view of God’s plan for history. Being as nice as possible, these people believe we are beyond the Millennium and currently reside in the new heavens and new earth and the Traditionalists, on the other hand, believe the new heavens and new earth refer to the eternal state. In other words.........The Word of God is a lie!!!!

If we were in the new heavens and new earth, then the New Testament epistles would not directly apply to believers today because they were written to instruct Christians how to live between the two comings of Christ. Since preterists always employ an allegorical/spiritual rather than a literal hermeneutic, some do not believe in a literal interpretation of the book of Genesis.

Further, just to clear my mind on this to you, they no longer hold to a personal Devil or angels, whether elect or evil, or a literal hell, however, they tend to lean toward idealism; but none support a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Accordingly, however, Rome’s destruction of Israel in A.D. 70 annihilated Israel’s future. Israel has no national future whatsoever. It is not surprising that most preterists do not support the modern State of Israel and tend to be sympathetic to Muslims.

Thanks for asking!
 
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