How much authority or influence should one have over the other?
How do you balance between the two?
Can one do without the other?
How do you balance between the two?
Can one do without the other?
Church/State relationship
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What a big question, I suppose it depends what state you are in lol.
How do I balance between the two. Well I don't know I'm not in the position of much authority over anything, I just do what I can in MY sphere of influence.
It is unlikely I will ever be in a position of political power (there an only be one mayor, and one MP for an electorate, and one prime minister), governor general or CEO of anything (housewife CEO? not even that) or even a board member.
But I do know we can pray for those in authority and kings (or queens) and those prayers make the difference. Because God makes the difference. Even the biggest tyrant, ruling person in the world, their power is nothing compared to God. And if they are deaf to God, you can't MAKE them listen but you can certainly pray, and God even gives people dreams who don't believe. Eg Nebuchadnezzar, Pilate, the Pharaoh....
How do I balance between the two. Well I don't know I'm not in the position of much authority over anything, I just do what I can in MY sphere of influence.
It is unlikely I will ever be in a position of political power (there an only be one mayor, and one MP for an electorate, and one prime minister), governor general or CEO of anything (housewife CEO? not even that) or even a board member.
But I do know we can pray for those in authority and kings (or queens) and those prayers make the difference. Because God makes the difference. Even the biggest tyrant, ruling person in the world, their power is nothing compared to God. And if they are deaf to God, you can't MAKE them listen but you can certainly pray, and God even gives people dreams who don't believe. Eg Nebuchadnezzar, Pilate, the Pharaoh....
The state has total power over the (c)hurch since it's a business entity. Filthy lucre flows through its hands. On those legal treasury notes is the name of the state, so it all belongs to that governing entity to govern as it sees fit. The (c)hurch can't survive if not planted firmly in the foundation of money. Why? Simply stated: The institutional model is purely a creation of men, not God. Yes, the Lord uses it, if and when He so chooses, but it did not originate with the Lord. What He creates is not so flimsy and fickle in stature. Modern and historic churchianity is an obese, snaggle-toothed, frizzed hair, torn garment, tattered, scratched and bruised, unshaven, and even smelly creature showing the wrinkles of age, wear and tear, along with all the maladies arising from self-indulgences in just about every imaginable sin.
The (C)hurch, on the other hand, is beautiful and wonderfully fragrant; outside the control of any earthly government. Man's authority simply doesn't over-shadow the Head. The (C)hurch is not built upon the foundation of money. She lives without the necessity for money for her survival. She lives and breaths the nourishing and life-sustaining atmosphere supplied by only the Lord. He alone exercises authority over her through whatever means He so chooses. Governments don't command her, nor do governments dictate morality to her. The Lord is the sole Source for all that flows into her.
Loving the Lord and each other is a power far beyond the control of any governing force outside of Christ. She has the power to shatter the very gates of Hell...a power no man-made government can even hope to achieve with his petty weapons of mass destruction.
What a contrast...
MM
The (C)hurch, on the other hand, is beautiful and wonderfully fragrant; outside the control of any earthly government. Man's authority simply doesn't over-shadow the Head. The (C)hurch is not built upon the foundation of money. She lives without the necessity for money for her survival. She lives and breaths the nourishing and life-sustaining atmosphere supplied by only the Lord. He alone exercises authority over her through whatever means He so chooses. Governments don't command her, nor do governments dictate morality to her. The Lord is the sole Source for all that flows into her.
Loving the Lord and each other is a power far beyond the control of any governing force outside of Christ. She has the power to shatter the very gates of Hell...a power no man-made government can even hope to achieve with his petty weapons of mass destruction.
What a contrast...
MM
Thanks, so would you say the Church should abide by these guidelines or each to their conscience?...
Isaiah 1:17 (NASB) Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.
(In the arena of euthanasia)...
Proverbs 31:8 (KJV) Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.
Proverbs 24:11-12 (KJV) If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?
Should the Church comply with Covid restrictions or should they gather for worship regardless in accordance with ...
Hebrews 10:25 (KJV) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
That's the beauty of being under the headship of Christ. A work, no matter what it is, be it activist or ministry, so long as we follow His leading as members of the body of Christ, then we don't need worry about trying to start things in our own strength. That's how we avoid the land mines of hypotheticals some may throw at us.
Bottom line...the day is coming, and is soon upon us, when buildings and various other of the trappings we've afforded for ourselves will become indefensible and unsustainable in a world gone mad with calling evil good, and good evil, and consumed with greed couched within inflationary profiteering. As culture increases its pressures upon government to start enforcing religious organizations paying their fair share of profit/income taxation and property taxes (all as a way of targeting those that don't comply with social and political correctness), they will be forced out of business, unable to stand under the enormous weight of governmental destruction through financial demands and enforcement.
MM
"WE" people have allowed the government to influence the church. That was never intended to be the case by the founders.
The church was to be free from the government but the government was to be the one influenced by the church.
Our country and government was founded upon the Word of God and Christian values.
Thanks, what happens when something like the Covid restrictions took place for 'health' reasons.
Some held to ...
Acts 5:29 (NASB) But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.
Hebrews 10:25 (NASB) not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Others held to...
Romans 13:1-2 (NASB) Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
Where's the balance, if there is one?
When governing authorities traipse off into the realm of the absurd and despotism, we continue our ministry among others who will listen, regardless of restrictions and demands from political, talking heads who covet power so much that they will perpetrate lies to get it.
It's inevitable that the inactive and ineffective professors of Christ will pull out from scripture whatever is convenient to defend their ineffectiveness and lethargic indifference to their responsibility to become a functional member of the body of Christ.
MM
Balance????
I am not one who believes that is going to happen.
Luke 17:26-27.......
“As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all”.
The SBC has now elected a liberal as President of the convention.
I sort of meant balance in our own personal decisions concerning that tension between the two.
Yes, but he's not the first liberal they ever had, right? Wasn't the one or two before this one liberal? After Richard Land, somewhere along the way, they got the first liberal guy in there they had ever had, but I can't remember his name. Liberals have been pushing to get into the key places all across the country. That's how the Boy Scouts went down. Infiltration. They are the type of people who will lie, wear lambs clothing if necessary, to get themselves into the positions of influence.
But, hey, it's not really them who are the problem here. I'm preaching to the choir. Those flesh and blood liberals would NEVER gain what they have achieved thus far had it not been the powers and principalities behind them that orchestrate the "liberal" successes we're witnessing all around us. Something is going on behind the scenes our eyes cannot behold.
Additionally, and I'm not saying you or anyone else here is guilty of this, but I have grown so weary of people beating up the (C)hurch over all this, blaming the (C)hurch, the body of Christ, beating us all up since we're easy targets, for our alleged ineffectiveness against the increasing evils in this world. We pray to the Lord to hold it all back, and to empower us to fight it, but the Lord allows it all to happen, not giving to us the power to overcome. Why?
Well, the bullies who try to beat us up in the (C)hurch are blind, cold and naked. They lack in vision and understanding, of the ways of the Lord, and that His will is playing out before our eyes. He's allowing the evil forces to rise up in power and influence, and in all that, evil ends up punishing its own. Do y'all get that? It affects us to an extent, but we're still camped out under the expansive shadows under the Wings of the Lord, with a thousand falling at our left hand, and ten thousand at our right. We have the armor. The wicked don't.
When the bullies point their fingers at the institutional system of (c)hurches, yes. They fail left and right since they live and breath from the strength of the arms of men and women who uphold and operate them. The liberals enter into them all the time, and overcome most of them. The liberals can't enter, and therefore they utterly incapable of infiltrating the (C)hurch. Isn't that wonderful!?
So, I leave the blame-game against the (C)hurch to the idiots who have no spiritual insight to see that the (C)hurch has always been in prayer to her Lord, seeking His deliverance and His powerful and mighty Hand stretched out to defeat the enemies of righteousness, and at various times throughout history, the Lord has been backing off, giving more free reign to the wicked of late. Given what we know about prophecy, it's likely to bring about the end of this world, so the prophecies must come to fulfillment by the degrees of the Lord's own choosing, not ours. I pray the Lord's blessing upon the (C)hurch and His chosen people Israel. They day is coming when two-thirds of the Jews will be wiped out, but the Lord will sustain a remnant against their enemies in the last days. There is such great hope in prophecy concerning the (C)hurch.
Let us continue in supplications, thanks and praise of the Lord for His mighty protections of us against the evil that He is allowing to continue gaining ground. When we assault wickedness without His direction, then we're doing so under our own strength. We can't win by the strength of our arms. He is Lord, and we should function under His leadership as His actually being Lord over us. Those who pooh-pooh prophecy, just remember that more than 1/4th of the entire Bible speaks of the end times, where all things will culminate, pointing to Christ Jesus and His mercies.
Amen
MM
Actually it is a little more concerning than that. Pastor Ed Litton, is the new Southern Baptist President. He is the pastor of Redemption Church in Saraland, AL….
His church, the Redemption Church subscribes–at least according to their website–to a heretical view of the Trinity known as partialism. Partialism, as opposed to the orthodox view of the Trinity that acknowledges the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each as fully God, instead teaches that each person of the Trinity is a “part” of God.
To be clear, Pastor Litton him described himself as both theologically and politically conservative.
Also concerning that Like other Southern Baptists, Litton affirms the denomination’s statement of faith, which declares “the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.” In the past, however, Litton’s wife, Kathy, has helped him preach about marriage during church services.
You are very correct in that some are quick to attack the church when the real problem is US. If WE do not choose to do what the right thing is then the enemy will do what they want to do.
Dr King had it right when he said....."For evil to succeed, all it needs is for good men to do nothing."
Only time will tell!
Sometimes I think we forget who the real head of the church is. I like to let the Bible as God's own words speak for itself and part of that is to trust that God is with each of us as we seek to understand his words and apply them in our lives.
Rarely do I invest much time in what others (even prominent others) say to be true within God's word.
Rarely do I invest much time in what others (even prominent others) say to be true within God's word.
Neither should have authority over the other because they are non-overlapping magisterium. The state belongs to the realm of the worldly political systems, which are controlled by the devil. The Church belongs to the kingdom of God and is controlled by God.
Cinch up your combat boot straps and get ready if you plan to defend the religious, magisterium, institutional system, because its days are numbered...those that refuse to bow their knee to the government mandated inclusiveness of sexual and gender perversions. The government sees itself as the rightful authority over even church organizations, and there is no stopping it from doing as it pleases now that the younger generation has mostly been corrupted with liberalistic/Marxist thinking. There ain't nothing gonna stop it apart from God Himself intervening. So get ready to walk away from your communal buildings and plush lawns, leaving them to be auctioned off by the local sheriffs to the highest bidder. Many have already been made into mosques, and that trend will likely not slow down in the observable decline of civilization.
MM
The government might force human beings to forfeit property, but it cannot force the forfeiture of faith. Psalm 2 comes to mind as the world makes its attacks. These fools make for amusement.
Granted. Closing the doors of communal property will not be of any big loss to the truly spiritual. Those of us who have already walked that wilderness to see what we're made of, and to therefore bolster the weak areas of our spiritual lives to ensure the institutional system don't remain crutches that prop us up in our faith, yes. We can walk away from those man-made systems, meet in the woods, in caves, homes, wherever the Lord leads us. The (C)hurch, as I have said before, lives and breaths in spite of money and property, not because of it. She remains spotless and beautiful, untarnished by the rudiments and soils of this earth and its governments.
MM
Ideally, the Church/State should work in harmony as spirit and body. But in a fallen world, I guess 'ideally' is a pipe dream.
Still, we have the Scripture setting up a sort of tension between the two with Rom 13:1-2 and Acts 5:29.
Our founders did not want the government to be free from religion. They wanted the church to be free from government!!!
The USA was actually a church relocation from the church of England where it was oppressed. They were afraid of what so many of the Old World countries had: a religion established by the state as its one true religion, that would tyrannically rule over the faith and conscience of every citizen.
So what they meant by saying in the First Amendment “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” was that the federal government was banned from creating – or “establishing” – a national religion with the national government wedded to it.
“They didn’t want to have a national, established Church of America like you have the Church of England, forcing people to believe something that they didn’t believe in,”
When Jefferson said that the First Amendment had erected a "wall of separation that would protect them from any intrusion of the government,” In Jefferson’s mind, the wall of separation was a uni-directional wall, put there to keep the government out of the church; not to keep the influence of the church out of the government.”
We have come a long way down hill in a very short time!