I probably couldn't say except Truth is eternally true whereas Fact is temporally true.
Any suggestions?
Any suggestions?
Difference Between Fact and Truth?
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Facts often are things that are observed or sensed in some way. The truth is much deeper and may only in part be observed or otherwise sensed. Through God's Spirit we are able to understand truth.
Man can observe and record a list of facts, but often doesn't know the fundamental truths of a matter.
This is just my first thoughts on the matter, to bounce around.
Man can observe and record a list of facts, but often doesn't know the fundamental truths of a matter.
This is just my first thoughts on the matter, to bounce around.
When you say, "Truth reflects many facts", do you mean 'truth is dependent on facts' or 'facts are dependent on truth'? Or?
Neither.
True Truth, as opposed to assumed truth, is always consistent with true facts. Neither overrides the other.
Misunderstood facts may lead to holding something false as true, but an understood fact will point to the Truth.
Likewise, a properly understood Truth will always be supported by properly understood facts.
... Reminds me of basic information theory about numeric values and the hierarchy information building up to "knowledge".
So you mean, things like, trees are always tree like. Even though a tree eventually disappears and breaks up and rots into the ground, the idea of a tree is eternal?
Aww, that sounds a bit too philosophical for me, as in the concept of 'essence'. I didn't fare well in philosophy class.
I want to stick closer to the biblical terms/concepts of truth and 'fact', Although I see the word 'fact' is not in Scripture, I believe the concept is there...at least in observable facts e.g...
1 John 1:1 (KJV) That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1 Corinthians 15:5-6 (KJV) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
But perhaps Truth runs along eternal lines with a different source...
1 John 1:2 (KJV) (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1 Corinthians 15:3 (KJV) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Christ's death was observable but the truth behind that death was 'for our sins'.
How would you compare this with post #7 above?
Not really. Your comment says it all. I would only say that A fact is collected information. A fact is sometimes assumed as true but may not be at all. A fact being true is not necessary. Facts can be arrived at by logical conclusions too. Facts can be mere statistical data. Facts cannot be universal in nature.
Fact is that 2 + 2 is always 4.
Fact is that the earth revolves around the Sun.
Truth, on the other hand, is the validity of the collected fact. Unlike facts, truths are not arrived at by logical conclusions or assumptions. Moreover, a truth has to be either seen or experienced to prove its validity. Truths cannot be statistical data for that matter. They are universal in nature. A truth is a truth anywhere in the world. Compared to facts, truths are more subjective in nature. Truths can be momentary. This is because of the fact that many scientific truths were disproved not long ago. Unlike facts, truths exist at least for the moment.
Post #7 contains several observations which can lead one to facts concerning Jesus.
Please note that as humans attempt to determine facts (and Truth), we cannot get away from our foundational views.
The founding fathers in the US pointed to inalienable rights, which were identified, but never attempted to be justified (they are taken to be true on their face - self evident). They used these as fundamental reasons for declare our independence.
Descartes started from the fact that he thought and from that inferred his own existence, and his world view. The fact that we remember "I think, therefore I am" and fewer of us can describe the world view he inferred should tell us a lot about the deficiencies in his approach.
Geometry formalizes a lot of this by starting with basic definitions (like what is a line), and adding a few postulates ('supposed truths' to be taken at face value) and by logic manipulation of these bits develops theorems.
The point for me is that all man's thoughts depends upon what he believes to be fundamental (what he takes by _Faith_).
Those things are not proved, only perceived as in accordance with TRUTH.
As Christians, we hold God's existence to be fundamental. The great I AM is the source of all (Every time I contemplate this statement in the desert by God, I am blessed and humbled). His love for us is manifest in the universe around us, and particularly in Christ. When Jesus said He was the Way, Truth, and Life He was claiming to be the human expression of all the Truths in creation. We rely on the Spirit to help us discern fundamental TRUTH from philosophical chaff.
Would you say that revealed truths from God are subjective and momentary?
Sounds like you are saying Truth is subjective. Or am I mistaken?
Please provide your definition of "subjective".
What may be termed ultimate Truth is certainly NOT subject to anything else.
But our perception of that Truth will be clouded by our limited understanding.
By example, this statement of yours struck me as subjective...
"The point for me is that all man's thoughts depends upon what he believes to be fundamental (what he takes by _Faith_). Those things are not proved, only perceived as in accordance with TRUTH."
But maybe I misunderstood.
By subjective, I would say it (Truth) is up for a vote by man.
By objective, I would say it's (Truth) source is from God and is not up for judgment by man's opinions.
Man's view ALWAYS has an element of subjectivity, But that does not alter the ultimate Truth of the matter.
And to further the point, God's message in His Word is infallible, but our understanding of it requires fallible interpretation (and application). If it were not so we would all be in agreement with even the most secondary teachings of the Bible.
Does that mean if they believe 'ultimately, all will be saved', does that mean in truth, 'all will be saved'?
No sir and that is not what I said at all.
What I actually said was that "truth is a truth anywhere in the world. Compared to facts, truths are more subjective in nature. Truths can be momentary. This is because of the fact that many scientific truths were disproved not long ago.
I said nothing about TRUTHS from God!!! What is perceived as TRUTH today BY SCIENCE is proven to be wrong tomarrow
THAT was the point.......NOTHING said about God's truth.
Example. The Blank Slate theory was widely popularized by Science in 1689,and proposed that individuals are born without built-in mental content and that their knowledge comes from experience and perception. That was the accepted scientific TRUTH then. However, Modern research has proven that genes and other family traits inherited from birth, along with innate instincts of course, play the important role. What was onec FACT then is not NOW!
John 17:17........
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
ANYTHING that God says is truth and is NOT subjective and is everlasting!
Ok, thanks for the clarification to my question (not an assertion).
I guess I have always seen the source of truth as from God, both general revelation (nature, conscience etc.) and special revelation (God's Word revealing matters of truth, not observed).
If a 'truth' is momentary, I have a hard time seeing it as universal truth. Even the example you gave about the Blank State thingy, was still a theory.
On a previous Forum I was on, they tried to make an argument that the Theory of Evolution was actually a Fact (I know you aren't making that case), because of the preponderance of so called 'evidence'. It will end up in the same eternal rubbish heap as The Blank Slate theory.
Properly speaking, science does not deal in TRUTH. It deals in evidence and explanation. These are often codified in theories and physical laws which I understand to be expressions of God (when properly understood).
In essence any and all these laws remain provisional and subject to further enquiry.
Correct.
The correct word used is the "THEORY" of Evolution. That is because for it to be a FACT it would have to be repeated and that is impossible.
All I was doing was giving you an example of what was a FACT 100 years ago is not a TRUTH today.
Another FACT 100 years ago was Cosmetics used to contain arsenic, mercury, and radioactivity.
Today, science has proven that those things were a LIE and they have no truth in them.
I am old enough to remember that People used to swallow tape worms to lose weight. THAT was a FACT then proven to be not a fact today.