In Hebrews 9:27 it is said that "all men are appointed to die". But this is a general statement and does not rule out exceptions. It doesn't state that every man must die once.
Enoch
- Thread starter LearningToLetGo
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Ah! Would you think Enoch still lives in his human body or has he received his heavenly one? I understand at this point we are speculating.
Could be.....but probably not.
There are three primary theories on the identity of the two witnesses in Revelation:
(1) Moses and Elijah, = Represent due to the specific miracles that John says the witnesses will perform.
(2) Enoch and Elijah, = because of the unique circumstances surrounding their exit from the world.
(3) two unknown believers whom God calls to be His witnesses in the end times.
I would go for door #3.
There is a reason why Scripture does not identify the two witnesses by name, and no well-known person is associated with their coming. God is perfectly capable of taking two “ordinary” believers and enabling them to perform the same signs and wonders that Moses and Elijah did. There is nothing in Revelation 11 that requires us to assume a “famous” identity for the two witnesses.
To stand firm on # 1 or #2 above is to read into the Scriptures our own personal bias. The two witnesses can be debated but certainly not argued about as it makes NO difference who they are.
Another thought, why would God remove Enoch and Elijah without dyeing to have them come back and die then be resurrected. If Enoch and Elijah did not die, they must have received glorified bodies so as to enter heaven! So, they can not then die if they are the Two witnesses in The Revelation.
That opens another door dosent it?????
As I said previously, the Book of Enoch is strange. It fell out of general use before 300-400 AD when the RCC consolidated the canon as we know it today but was preserved by the church in Ethiopia, and since Ethiopia was geographically and culturally isolated, at least regards Christianity, it was not pressured to conform as were the Roman territories. That's why we have this book today. Unfortunately we don't have the texts in their original language - aside from some fragments in the dead sea scrolls.
The text describes Enoch as a "righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God". (En 1.2) It then goes on to describe how he was shown a vision from God, but it doesn't get straight into that vision but first takes a detour around the Watchers and Nephilim.
The Watchers are described as angels who were tasked with the job of watching over mankind, but instead of performing their duties as commanded they lusted after human women and took them as wives. The watchers began to "defile themselves" (En 7.1) with human women who "bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells" (En. 7.2). For reference, an "ell" is about the size of a "cubit", which is approximately 18 inches tall, meaning these giants were 4,500 feet, or 1,385 meters tall! The giants were said to devastate the earth, first by consuming all that man produced, then by consuming man, and animals, and even each other. Yes, the giants were cannibals.
In addition to birthing giants, the Watchers taught mankind knowledge of metalworking and weapon making, of makeup and gathering of roots, of enchantments, astrology, movement of clouds, and the earth, the sun and moon (En. 8.1-2).
It was at this point that God sent down angels from heaven (Michael, Uriel, Raphael and Gabriel) to set things straight. They captured the Watchers and bound them in a pit of darkness, covered with rocks to await the final judgement (En 10.4-7, 11-15). The Giants were made to fight each other and kill one another (En 10.9-10) and also be devoured by the flood (En. 10.2-3).
Here's where it gets really interesting. In Enoch 15, God is telling Enoch what he is to tell the Watchers regarding their fate. God says that "the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling." (En. 15.8). He goes on to say "And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, nevertheless hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them." (En. 15.10-11).
That last bit seems to be describing what we now call demons. The fallen angels are trapped deep in the earth but the disembodies spirits of the giants are permitted to roam.
This is frankly terrifying stuff. I would give it no heed if it weren't for the fact that fallen angels and giants are also mentioned in the Bible itself. Definitely food for thought.
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Who wrote the Book of Enoch?
That's a good question. It's estimated to have been written between 100 BC and 300 BC.
I asked wondering if the author had a track record of other books and/or fulfilled prophecy?
Enoch is only canon in the Ethiopian church, and had fallen out of favor in both Jerusalem and Rome by 300 ish AD. That said, Jude 1:14 quotes from Enoch 1:9 so it was known in 1st century AD.
Jude 1:14 ESV
14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones,
Enoch 1:9
9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones to execute
judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of
all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of
all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
Unknown.
The Book of Enoch is actually a compilation of several different texts, written by multiple authors over a period of time. It is generally believed to have been composed between the third century BCE and the first century CE.
Now right here is the problem.
You said quoting Enoch that ........
"The Watchers are described as angels who were tasked with the job of watching over mankind, but instead of performing their duties as commanded they lusted after human women and took them as wives."
My dear friend, that is impossible! GOOD angels would never do that. FALLEN angels are spirit beings and can not have sex. They do not have the appropriate plumbing.
Matthew 22:30 is where God Himself said that angels are ASEXUAL and do not have sex.
You then said quoting Enoch that ..........
"For reference, an "ell" is about the size of a "cubit", which is approximately 18 inches tall, meaning these giants were 4,500 feet, or 1,385 meters tall! The giants were said to devastate the earth, first by consuming all that man produced, then by consuming man, and animals, and even each other. Yes, the giants were cannibals".
THINK.....IF, IF any of that was possible, dont you think that one of the writers of the Bible would have included it? Since Moses wrote the 1st five books, do YOU think that he would have known of such a thing???? What about Joshua or Daniel?
I realize that you are posting words from the Book of Enoch, however they read like a book from Stephen King! When there is NO BIBLICAL support, the material must be rejected as science fiction or an over active imagination!
You said..........
" I would give it no heed if it weren't for the fact that fallen angels and giants are also mentioned in the Bible itself. Definitely food for thought."
The fact that you are posting phrases from the book says that YOU have indeed given it heed!
Yes, fallen angels are found in the Bible. They are angels who followed Satan.
Yes, "Giants" are found in the Bible but NO WHERE does is say 4500 feet tall!
Allow me to say to you that Biblically speaking..."GIANTS" in the Scripture of Genesis refers to "NEPHILIM". They are one in the same.
Since GOD told us in Matthew 22:30 that ALL Angels are asexual we then know that the fallen angels in Genesis did not and could not have had sex with human women hence producing GIANTS. The largest human recorded in history was Goliath and he was 9 feet tall. He was a human being. There have been many men who were 8 feet tall. Today, there is a young man on the Florida basketball team who is 8 FEET tall.
Genesis 9:19......
"These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread."
If the whole earth was overspread by Noah’s sons, then every human post-flood, including so-called giants, must have come from these three lineages. That alone disqualifies the idea of non-human, angelic bloodlines existing in later generations like Goliath or King Og.
The Book of Enoch is where the confusion of Genesis 6 begins.
Verse #2 speaks of “the sons of God” marrying the “daughters of men.” Many assume these “sons of God” were angels, but this interpretation is flawed for several reasons:
Angels are spirit beings and do not have sexual relations. Matthew 22:30......
"For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."
- The term “sons of God” in the Old Testament refers to righteous human men, especially descendants of Seth, who maintained the worship of the Most High unless specifically mentioned as Angels by location such as in Job 1.
- The context of Genesis 6 is moral corruption, not genetic mutation. The “giants” (Hebrew: nephilim) were mighty men, not monsters or hybrids.
- After the Flood, the Bible says all life outside of the ark perished. If giants had angelic blood, that bloodline would’ve been wiped out—yet we still see giants afterward like Og and Goliath, whose human lineages are well documented.
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I assume the "3000 ell" is hyperbole in the same way we say things like, "I'm flying through town" or "running errands at 100 mph" when we are neither flying nor moving at nearly that speed.
The takeaway is that there were abominable creations, perversions of nature, created by the intermixing of spirit and flesh.
In my opinion, It is a mistranslation/understanding and or fantasy.
According to Hebrews translators, the word “Elioud” became “ells” and “3” became “3,000”.
Now lets put that into perspective. Noah’s Ark was said to be 300 cubits long, about 450 feet.
According to Enoch’s numbers, the giants were ten times longer than the Ark itself. Do YOU think that maybe this is an exaggeration; or it’s pure fantasy.
I already said I think it's hyperbole.
Numbers 13:33
33 And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”
What do you make of the Jews saying they were "like grasshoppers" compared to the Nephilim? Is this to be taken at face value or is it also hyperbole?
"Hyperbole" = Imagination.
My dear brother, it should be noted here that the word Nephilim has been translated as "Giants", however that does not mean “giants” as in BIG people but rather “to bow down”.
So then, IMHO there were Nephilim both before and after the flood who were feared for their strength and attitudes which they used to dominate others. (Bully).
Now, we go to the 12 spies in Numbers 13. Maybe they saw large, tall men. Remember now that these men were "spies" on a secret mission. They were probably being careful and sneaky. I am sure that they were in fear and very apprehensive. All of a sudden they see people and fear overpowered faith and their brains said to Moses........
"And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight."
Except Caleb and Joshua!!!!
But that is just me. As in all things, no one has to agree with me.
was not an inspired book by the Holy Spirit
That is perfectly fine. I'm not trying to sell the idea of 50 ft giants but am showing there is a case for it in the Bible and beyond.
Not part of canon though
I understand brother, however there is NO Biblical basis for 50 ft. giants.
Large men, big men...YES. In the Bible, Goliath was 9 feet tall.
And? I never claimed it was, at least outside of Ethiopia. I merely show that it was known in the 1st century and even referenced in canonical works.
That is an interesting taken on the matter. However there is a simpler expanation.
According to George W. E. Nickelsburg (1 Enoch Hermeneia: Fortess Press, p 185) it is a gloss.
Now let's go back to your view. A cubit and an ell are the same length. A cubit is around 18 inches. 18 x 3000 = 54000 inches. 54000\12 inches or 1 foot = 4500 feet. The world's tallest building is the Burj Khalifa (Dubai, United Arab Emirate) and it is only 2,722 feet tall.
In this case it is at least possible the author may have using hyperbole to make his point given the extreme size.
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