Head Covering A Symbol To The Unseen Realm by Greg Gordon

[Euphemia]

That would be true, but the head-covering isn't to do with modesty. A woman is given long hair in lieu of a veil, that is modesty. The head-covering is a sign of authority, and connected with the glory of God. If we took this to be an exhortation to modesty, setting aside the apostle's explanation of the practice in the earlier part of the chapter, we would still be left wondering what a man uncovering his head had to do with modesty.

Yet, Paul was speaking about the headcovering with regard to the problem the churches were experiencing with newly saved women coming out of paganism, where they participated as priestesses in the sex shrines with shorn, bald, bared heads! It was an affront to God as an abandonment of femininity.

If we understand and value the truth inwardly, then the outward form isn't dead - it's a reflective of what's inward. If a brother or a sister understands the values the principle of authority and how we glorify God through by recognising it, they uncover or cover their head, respectively. Both the man and the woman are acknowledging divine authority by their actions.

Many outward forms ARE due to dead religious thinking. The headcovering in 21st century North America is just that. It certainly does reflect the errant thinking within, not to mention the relenting to errant pressure coming from others.

 

[Grant Melville]

Yet, Paul was speaking about the headcovering with regard to the problem the churches were experiencing with newly saved women coming out of paganism, where they participated as priestesses in the sex shrines with shorn, bald, bared heads! It was an affront to God as an abandonment of femininity.

I think there are two things which would refute that theory. The first is 1 Corinthians 11:5: "But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered puts her own head to shame; for it is one and the same as a shaved woman." Here Paul describes a practice which was just as bad as a woman being shaved. No doubt he had those former pagans in mind when he wrote this, but he isn't speaking about them - he's holding them up as an example to those who had hair but refused to cover their heads, putting those women in the same category.
The second evidence is that the apostle Paul (and none of the other epistle writers) ever occupies the recepients of their epistles with the passing fashions, customs or behaviours of the time. Everywhere, we get timeless principles, and the apostles labour to lift the saints out of their culture and above the degredation of the world around them so that they might be united and formed after Christ, according to a heavenly order of things. Would Paul ever reinforce something that would divide the saints culturally, even if it was seen to be outwardly respectable? Quite the opposite: "there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman..." (Colossians 3:11).

Many outward forms ARE due to dead religious thinking. The headcovering in 21st century North America is just that. It certainly does reflect the errant thinking within, not to mention the relenting to errant pressure coming from others.

I agree, and much of what is done has no basis whatsoever in scripture. It's based on tradition, or innovation. If only more of us would stop trying to build with this "wood, grass, straw" (1 Corinthians 3:12), these perishable things which have no eternal value. We need to discern, though, what is dead tradition and what is living scripture. Here, what we have is quite clearly scripture, and very precious truth at that. Those who do these things do them because they value what they speak of. Scripture which bears on authority is often hard for some to accept - we need to be sure that we aren't among those people. Jude warns us about them:

"Yet in like manner these dreamers also defile the flesh, and despise lordship, and speak railingly against dignities. But Michael the archangel, when disputing with the devil he reasoned about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a railing judgment against him, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these, whatever things they know not, they speak railingly against; but what even, as the irrational animals, they understand by mere nature, in these things they corrupt themselves. Woe to them! because they have gone in the way of Cain, and given themselves up to the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core." - Jude 1:8-11

This is a bleak picture. It's the line of Cain, Balaam and Korah. Although I don't think Jude is speaking about anyone who is a believer here, I think we need to on our guard against this way of thinking.

 

[Euphemia]

I think there are two things which would refute that theory. The first is 1 Corinthians 11:5: "But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered puts her own head to shame; for it is one and the same as a shaved woman." Here Paul describes a practice which was just as bad as a woman being shaved. No doubt he had those former pagans in mind when he wrote this, but he isn't speaking about them - he's holding them up as an example to those who had hair but refused to cover their heads, putting those women in the same category.

He was addressing that very problem---shorn women standing before the Lord's presence in the assembly with bald heads, a remnant of their pagan ways.

The second evidence is that the apostle Paul (and none of the other epistle writers) ever occupies the recepients of their epistles with the passing fashions, customs or behaviours of the time. Everywhere, we get timeless principles, and the apostles labour to lift the saints out of their culture and above the degredation of the world around them so that they might be united and formed after Christ, according to a heavenly order of things. Would Paul ever reinforce something that would divide the saints culturally, even if it was seen to be outwardly respectable? Quite the opposite: "there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman..." (Colossians 3:11).

Timeless principles, but not forever edicts! Not fashion police!

You are demanding a cultural throwback.

I agree, and much of what is done has no basis whatsoever in scripture. It's based on tradition, or innovation. If only more of us would stop trying to build with this "wood, grass, straw" (1 Corinthians 3:12), these perishable things which have no eternal value. We need to discern, though, what is dead tradition and what is living scripture. Here, what we have is quite clearly scripture, and very precious truth at that. Those who do these things do them because they value what they speak of. Scripture which bears on authority is often hard for some to accept - we need to be sure that we aren't among those people. Jude warns us about them:

"Yet in like manner these dreamers also defile the flesh, and despise lordship, and speak railingly against dignities. But Michael the archangel, when disputing with the devil he reasoned about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a railing judgment against him, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these, whatever things they know not, they speak railingly against; but what even, as the irrational animals, they understand by mere nature, in these things they corrupt themselves. Woe to them! because they have gone in the way of Cain, and given themselves up to the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core." - Jude 1:8-11

This is a bleak picture. It's the line of Cain, Balaam and Korah. Although I don't think Jude is speaking about anyone who is a believer here, I think we need to on our guard against this way of thinking.

Continuing wearing a head covering in the 21st century, and teaching people to do so is a tradition of men. It is foolishness, and is entering into the useless building with wood, hay and stubble.

 

[Grant Melville]

He was addressing that very problem---shorn women standing before the Lord's presence in the assembly with bald heads, a remnant of their pagan ways.



Timeless principles, but not forever edicts! Not fashion police!

You are demanding a cultural throwback.




Continuing wearing a head covering in the 21st century, and teaching people to do so is a tradition of men. It is foolishness, and is entering into the useless building with wood, hay and stubble.

Well... what more can be said? This is something that each one of us needs to take up personally with the Lord. Would His apostle find our conduct praiseworthy? Have we kept the directions which Paul delivered to the assembly, as he received them from the Lord?

"Be my imitators, even as *I* also am of Christ. Now I praise you, that in all things ye are mindful of me; and that as I have directed you, ye keep the directions." (1 Corinthians 11:1-2)

There's safety, certainty and enjoyment in abiding by the Word.

 

[Son of Jesus]

No one really knows what Paul meant when he said, "It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels."

I know exactly what it means

(1Co 11:9) for a man also was not created because of the woman, but a woman because of the man;
(1Co 11:10) because of this the woman ought to have a token of authority upon the head, because of the messengers;

Men are the "messengers" (angels) of the Gospel of salvation;

(1Co 1:21) for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing.

(Heb 1:14) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

(Psa 103:20) Bless Jehovah, ye His messengers, (angels), Mighty in power--doing His word, To hearken to the voice of His Word.
(Psa 103:21) Bless Jehovah, all ye His hosts, His ministers--doing His pleasure.

Psa_104:4 Who maketh his angels (messengers) spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

(Luk 3:16) ...he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire;

Isa_61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God...

(1Pe 2:9) and ye are a choice race, a royal priesthood, ...

(2Co 3:6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new covenant...

(Gen 3:16) Unto the woman He said, `Multiplying I multiply thy sorrow and thy conception, in sorrow dost thou bear children, and toward thy husband is thy desire, and he doth rule over thee.'

(1Co 14:34) Your women in the assemblies let them be silent, for it hath not been permitted to them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith;
(1Co 14:35) and if they wish to learn anything, at home their own husbands let them question, for it is a shame to women to speak in an assembly.

(Eph 5:22) The wives! to your own husbands subject yourselves, as to the Lord,
(Eph 5:23) because the husband is head of the wife, as also the Christ is head of the assembly, and he is saviour of the body,
(Eph 5:24) but even as the assembly is subject to Christ, so also are the wives to their own husbands in everything.

(Tit 2:3) aged women, in like manner, in deportment as doth become sacred persons, not false accusers, to much wine not enslaved, of good things teachers,
(Tit 2:4) that they may make the young women sober-minded, to be lovers of their husbands, lovers of their children,
(Tit 2:5) sober, pure, keepers of their own houses, good, subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be evil spoken of.

(Col 3:18) The wives! be subject to your own husbands, as is fit in the Lord;

(1Ti 2:11) Let a woman in quietness learn in all subjection,
(1Ti 2:12) and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,
(1Ti 2:13) for Adam was first formed, then Eve,
(1Ti 2:14) and Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, into transgression came,
(1Ti 2:15) and she shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they remain in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

The Child-bearing! Christ being born in us, (the Church, the Woman) is to live as such an example in submission to those who are "messengers/angels" of the New Marriage Covenant... She has no greater ministry than "living" the example of the Bride of Christ, in Her submission to Her Husband in Holy Matrimony, just as all of us are the Bride of Christ living in submission to our Head, in Holy Matrimony to Jesus. What a great witness and awesome role to live!

Here we are altogether, that picture, of which opportunity the woman has to show forth to her husband!

(Rev 21:9) ... `Come, I will shew thee the bride of the Lamb--the wife,'

(Joh 3:29) He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

(2Co 11:2) For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

(Joh 16:21) A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

(Rom 8:22) For we know that the whole creation (The Church Wife), groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (BIRTH PANGS)

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

(Rom 7:4) ...be married...to him who is raised from the dead...

(Rev 19:7) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

(Rev 19:8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

(Rev 19:9) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

(Col 1:27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

(Rev 21:2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

(Rev 12:1) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(Rev 12:2) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(Col 1:27)...Christ in you...
(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.

Of course not everybody thinks NOW is the Time to Marry Jesus and bring forth 'Christ in the flesh", so they are barren and without the Spirit;

(Luk 14:16) Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
(Luk 14:17) And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
(Luk 14:18) And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
(Luk 14:19) And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
(Luk 14:20) And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
(Luk 14:21) So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
(Luk 14:22) And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
(Luk 14:23) And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
(Luk 14:24) For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

(Rev 19:9) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Have we all Married Christ yet? Let's not be as one who puts it off for some reason

(Mat 25:10) And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
(Mat 25:11) Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
(Mat 25:12) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

I hope this wasn't too long, but to me, this is the most beautiful manner in which the Gospel is presented. And we each, male and female, have the tremendous opportunity to manifest this Living Gospel in our manner of Living.

Peace and Love

 

[Euphemia]

I know exactly what it means

(1Co 11:9) for a man also was not created because of the woman, but a woman because of the man;
(1Co 11:10) because of this the woman ought to have a token of authority upon the head, because of the messengers;

Men are the "messengers" (angels) of the Gospel of salvation;

(1Co 1:21) for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing.

(Heb 1:14) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

(Psa 103:20) Bless Jehovah, ye His messengers, (angels), Mighty in power--doing His word, To hearken to the voice of His Word.
(Psa 103:21) Bless Jehovah, all ye His hosts, His ministers--doing His pleasure.

Psa_104:4 Who maketh his angels (messengers) spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

(Luk 3:16) ...he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire;

Isa_61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God...

(1Pe 2:9) and ye are a choice race, a royal priesthood, ...

(2Co 3:6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new covenant...

(Gen 3:16) Unto the woman He said, `Multiplying I multiply thy sorrow and thy conception, in sorrow dost thou bear children, and toward thy husband is thy desire, and he doth rule over thee.'

(1Co 14:34) Your women in the assemblies let them be silent, for it hath not been permitted to them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith;
(1Co 14:35) and if they wish to learn anything, at home their own husbands let them question, for it is a shame to women to speak in an assembly.

(Eph 5:22) The wives! to your own husbands subject yourselves, as to the Lord,
(Eph 5:23) because the husband is head of the wife, as also the Christ is head of the assembly, and he is saviour of the body,
(Eph 5:24) but even as the assembly is subject to Christ, so also are the wives to their own husbands in everything.

(Tit 2:3) aged women, in like manner, in deportment as doth become sacred persons, not false accusers, to much wine not enslaved, of good things teachers,
(Tit 2:4) that they may make the young women sober-minded, to be lovers of their husbands, lovers of their children,
(Tit 2:5) sober, pure, keepers of their own houses, good, subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be evil spoken of.

(Col 3:18) The wives! be subject to your own husbands, as is fit in the Lord;

(1Ti 2:11) Let a woman in quietness learn in all subjection,
(1Ti 2:12) and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,
(1Ti 2:13) for Adam was first formed, then Eve,
(1Ti 2:14) and Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, into transgression came,
(1Ti 2:15) and she shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they remain in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

The Child-bearing! Christ being born in us, (the Church, the Woman) is to live as such an example in submission to those who are "messengers/angels" of the New Marriage Covenant... She has no greater ministry than "living" the example of the Bride of Christ, in Her submission to Her Husband in Holy Matrimony, just as all of us are the Bride of Christ living in submission to our Head, in Holy Matrimony to Jesus. What a great witness and awesome role to live!

Here we are altogether, that picture, of which opportunity the woman has to show forth to her husband!

(Rev 21:9) ... `Come, I will shew thee the bride of the Lamb--the wife,'

(Joh 3:29) He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

(2Co 11:2) For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

(Joh 16:21) A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

(Rom 8:22) For we know that the whole creation (The Church Wife), groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (BIRTH PANGS)

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

(Rom 7:4) ...be married...to him who is raised from the dead...

(Rev 19:7) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

(Rev 19:8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

(Rev 19:9) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

(Col 1:27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

(Rev 21:2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

(Rev 12:1) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(Rev 12:2) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(Col 1:27)...Christ in you...
(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.

Of course not everybody thinks NOW is the Time to Marry Jesus and bring forth 'Christ in the flesh", so they are barren and without the Spirit;

(Luk 14:16) Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
(Luk 14:17) And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
(Luk 14:18) And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
(Luk 14:19) And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
(Luk 14:20) And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
(Luk 14:21) So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
(Luk 14:22) And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
(Luk 14:23) And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
(Luk 14:24) For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

(Rev 19:9) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Have we all Married Christ yet? Let's not be as one who puts it off for some reason

(Mat 25:10) And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
(Mat 25:11) Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
(Mat 25:12) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

I hope this wasn't too long, but to me, this is the most beautiful manner in which the Gospel is presented. And we each, male and female, have the tremendous opportunity to manifest this Living Gospel in our manner of Living.

Peace and Love

Many good verses but no real communication of you understanding exactly the meaning of the phrase "because of the angels".

 

[Son of Jesus]

Many good verses but no real communication of you understanding exactly the meaning of the phrase "because of the angels".

Ok. But it is actually the Holy Spirit's purpose in revealing the meaning of His Word. I was just providing a deep collection of the relative Word for you where the answer to your question is contained. I make it a habit of not explaining what the Bible "means", I don't want anyone believing "me" or what I say, as it is written;

(Rom 3:4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

 

[Euphemia]

Ok. But it is actually the Holy Spirit's purpose in revealing the meaning of His Word. I was just providing a deep collection of the relative Word for you where the answer to your question is contained. I make it a habit of not explaining what the Bible "means", I don't want anyone believing "me" or what I say, as it is written;

(Rom 3:4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Seeing as I am very familiar with all those quotes you used, I am more than certain that no one really has the exact truth about this matter.

 

[Son of Jesus]

Seeing as I am very familiar with all those quotes you used, I am more than certain that no one really has the exact truth about this matter.

haha ok

 

[Grant Melville]

A reference to this scripture is made in the ministry of J. Taylor.:

"P.H.H.: Referring to the matter of the angels again for a moment, there is a remarkable word in 1 Corinthians 11 about the woman. "Therefore ought the woman to have authority on her head, on account of the angels". What is exactly the bearing of bringing in angels there?
J.T.: I suppose it is that they are the custodians of God's operations, and that the women are to be subdued and in every way subject. They are to have authority on the head, because of the angels, so that they should be in every way suitable in view of the order of God in the creation, and this should work out in the assembly.
A.J.G.: In first Peter we read, "which angels desire to look into", as though angels have a great interest in all that God is doing in the assembly.
J.T. That is just what I would think. Evidently they are onlookers, but they have great honour. At the same time they are ministers; they are *our* ministers. They are not heirs of salvation, as we are. So that the saints of the assembly have great distinction."

- Ministry by J. Taylor (New Series) - Volume 70, pp. 323-324

 

[Euphemia]

A reference to this scripture is made in the ministry of J. Taylor.:

"P.H.H.: Referring to the matter of the angels again for a moment, there is a remarkable word in 1 Corinthians 11 about the woman. "Therefore ought the woman to have authority on her head, on account of the angels". What is exactly the bearing of bringing in angels there?
J.T.: I suppose it is that they are the custodians of God's operations, and that the women are to be subdued and in every way subject. They are to have authority on the head, because of the angels, so that they should be in every way suitable in view of the order of God in the creation, and this should work out in the assembly.
A.J.G.: In first Peter we read, "which angels desire to look into", as though angels have a great interest in all that God is doing in the assembly.
J.T. That is just what I would think. Evidently they are onlookers, but they have great honour. At the same time they are ministers; they are *our* ministers. They are not heirs of salvation, as we are. So that the saints of the assembly have great distinction."

- Ministry by J. Taylor (New Series) - Volume 70, pp. 323-324

Right..."...women are to be subdued and in every way subject...". Typical gender-infected claptrap.

 

[Complete]

'But every woman
that prayeth or prophesieth
with her head uncovered
dishonoureth her head:
for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
For if the woman be not covered,
let her also be shorn:
but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven,
let her be covered.
For a man indeed ought not to cover his head,
forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God:
but the woman is the glory of the man.'
(1Co 11:5-)

Hello @Grant Melville ,

The angels are indeed, 'onlookers', as J.T. says. They are witnessing, by the Church, the manifold wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: in Whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him. (Eph. 3). Does this not make you feel the awesome-ness: of the boldness of access that we have; into the very presence of God - in all His holiness?

This word to the Corinthians concerns the attitude of prayer: when access is being sought and granted with such wondrous grace.

What a revelation this must have been to the angels, that Gentiles, formerly far off from God, enemies of God, who had no reverence for Him, and sought Him not, should, through the grace and mercy of God be given this honour, in Christ Jesus, to approach the very throne of God, like this!

'But God commendeth His love toward us,
in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.'
(Rom 5:8)

Doesn't it make you feel that this action Paul exhorts women to make, to cover their head, when praying, is such a very small request to make: in the light of the wondrous grace that is being poured out upon them, in Christ Jesus?

Regardless of the objections raised to it, I can see it's purpose, and as a woman, praise God for it.
May His Name be praised!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Grant Melville]

Doesn't it make you feel that this action Paul exhorts women to make, to cover their head, when praying, is such a very small request to make: in the light of the wondrous grace that is being poured out upon them, in Christ Jesus?

Yes! Absolutely. That's exactly it. If we have a sense of the wondrous grace of God, then doing His will is our pleasure, it's a delightful thing. I couldn't add anything to what you've already said, I can only say a hearty 'amen' to all of it.

 

[tjmahns]

It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels. – 1 Corinthians 11:10

The passage in Corinthians clearly teaches of headship where God is the head of Christ and Christ is the head of man and man is the head of woman. Though Biblical submission is right woman are not inferior spiritually but one in Christ. Yet they must choose to submit and humble themselves just as Christ humbled himself before the Father. God’s government and way of order is in such a way where each member must do his or her part. When women or men choose not to fulfill and walk in God’s ways for the Church, disorder and every evil practice ensues. The importance of head covering is not an outward reason but an spiritual reality proclaimed to the principalities and powers. When the head covering is practiced it proclaims God’s order and way to all of creation, including the angels (1 Peter 1:12). K.P. Yohannan says, “Have you considered why there is so much tension and fighting over placing a small piece of cloth on one’s head? When a woman wears the symbol of God’s government, a head covering, she is essentially a rebuke to all the fallen angels. Her actions say to them, ‘You have rebelled against the Holy God, but I submit to Him and His headship. I choose not to follow your example of rebellion and pride.'” Eve fell into satan’s rebellion (2 Corinthians 11:3), yet now in the Church women declare they are following God’s order in the Church (1 Timothy 2:12-14).

Watchman Nee says, “When many of the sisters in the church take the place given to woman and learn to cover their heads, they send out an unspoken word of testimony to the angels in the air, to the effect that God has obtained in the church what He desires.” Hippolytus an early Church Father wrote, “let all the women have their heads covered.” Others who taught this practice in the Church were, John Calvin, Martin Luther, Early Church Fathers, John Wesley, Matthew Henry to name just a few. We must remind ourselves that until the twentieth century, virtually all Christian women wore head coverings. As we worship together as the Church we enter into worship with the holy angels in heaven who cover their faces (Isaiah 6:2). In the same way sisters covering their heads show they honouring of the glory of God. Clement of Rom in A.D. 96 said, “Then let us gather together in awareness of our concord” speaking of the holy angels when we worship. The Church is to gather and worship God in the spirit (John 4:24) doing things that the world considers foolish but for the Lord there is great significance. Paul speaking as inspired by the Holy Spirit said, “we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God” (1 Corinthians 11:16). It was not just a local custom or practice but all the Churches were practicing this as with water Baptism and Holy Communion. This was not an optional thing as the default was all the Churches were doing it. But Paul gives grace to those who are not convinced of its importance from the Lord as the Corinthians partly were divided over many issues including this one.

Hi I have also come across these passages and have researched them as a woman! I would like to ask a question I'm new so pkease forgive if this is inappropriate, what is your faith based background I'm just curious!(if you don't mind). I would like to say that I do believe what you are saying is true and correct. I know that what I just said is not going to be popular with my fellow sisters so I do encourage you to honestly read those scriptures. I wasn't exactly flowing with Joy about it either. However the truth be told women wore head coverings in church until 1950's (they were called hats)actually but I do think the that is was starting to fade then but before no women would have dreamed going to church without a bonnet or hat. I do believe that somewhere mothers quot teaching daughters why they wore them until eventually it got lost!

 

[Euphemia]

Hi I have also come across these passages and have researched them as a woman! I would like to ask a question I'm new so pkease forgive if this is inappropriate, what is your faith based background I'm just curious!(if you don't mind). I would like to say that I do believe what you are saying is true and correct. I know that what I just said is not going to be popular with my fellow sisters so I do encourage you to honestly read those scriptures. I wasn't exactly flowing with Joy about it either. However the truth be told women wore head coverings in church until 1950's (they were called hats)actually but I do think the that is was starting to fade then but before no women would have dreamed going to church without a bonnet or hat. I do believe that somewhere mothers quot teaching daughters why they wore them until eventually it got lost!

It's tradition. We are not bound by tradition, so if you want to wear a hat, wear one, but you don't have to, and the word of God is not telling you that you must.

 

[tjmahns]

So, tell me...do you insist on the women and girls in your church to adhere to a first century custom to cover their heads?

It's Paul's logical prescription for that particular church at that particular time in history, for a particular difficulty in behaviour.

We don't cover our heads anywhere in society for any reason apart from weather. It is a cultural behaviour that the middle eastern people adhere to. Paul was addressing the fact that the newly Christian women were coming into the churches with bare heads and bald heads, bearing the outward look of their pagan pasts. Baldness was found in those who were priestesses in the cult of Aphrodite. Paul wanted them to cover up their remnant look and be modest and uniform, dressing as other women of the day. Nothing wrong with that.

Today, we would stick out like a sore thumb coming into the Lord's house veiled. How welcoming would that be to visitors? It isn't the uniform dress of women today, and to adhere to an ancient custom of dress as some sort of religious and pious behaviour is legalism and serves to hold the unchurched at arm's length, rather than endear us to them.

*Your posts reveal a denominational affect, much like Mennonite or Amish or Brethren.

Actually Paul say

It's tradition. We are not bound by tradition, so if you want to wear a hat, wear one, but you don't have to, and the word of God is not telling you that you must.

Honestly when I first read the passage I thought the same and your absolutely right we are not bound by tradition only by the word of God! However the one phrase that kept bothering me and I ended back at was where Paul says that a woman's head ought to be covered as a witness to the angels. Please if you have any information regarding this passage then I am honestly wanting to hear it. I will say that I don't believe a woman has to wear a hijab the covering like Muslim women wear that's a little extreme IMO, and there's nothing in there that says a woman has to have a head covering at all times just when she is praying. Now I will admit I dont always do this I was and then got out of the habit.

 

[Euphemia]

Actually Paul say

Honestly when I first read the passage I thought the same and your absolutely right we are not bound by tradition only by the word of God! However the one phrase that kept bothering me and I ended back at was where Paul says that a woman's head ought to be covered as a witness to the angels. Please if you have any information regarding this passage then I am honestly wanting to hear it. I will say that I don't believe a woman has to wear a hijab the covering like Muslim women wear that's a little extreme IMO, and there's nothing in there that says a woman has to have a head covering at all times just when she is praying. Now I will admit I dont always do this I was and then got out of the habit.

Our head is already covered with the glory of God as believers.

1 Corinthians 11:15
15 But if a woman has long hair, it is her ornament and glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

 

[Major]

I think there are two things which would refute that theory. The first is 1 Corinthians 11:5: "But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered puts her own head to shame; for it is one and the same as a shaved woman." Here Paul describes a practice which was just as bad as a woman being shaved. No doubt he had those former pagans in mind when he wrote this, but he isn't speaking about them - he's holding them up as an example to those who had hair but refused to cover their heads, putting those women in the same category.
The second evidence is that the apostle Paul (and none of the other epistle writers) ever occupies the recepients of their epistles with the passing fashions, customs or behaviours of the time. Everywhere, we get timeless principles, and the apostles labour to lift the saints out of their culture and above the degredation of the world around them so that they might be united and formed after Christ, according to a heavenly order of things. Would Paul ever reinforce something that would divide the saints culturally, even if it was seen to be outwardly respectable? Quite the opposite: "there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman..." (Colossians 3:11).


I agree, and much of what is done has no basis whatsoever in scripture. It's based on tradition, or innovation. If only more of us would stop trying to build with this "wood, grass, straw" (1 Corinthians 3:12), these perishable things which have no eternal value. We need to discern, though, what is dead tradition and what is living scripture. Here, what we have is quite clearly scripture, and very precious truth at that. Those who do these things do them because they value what they speak of. Scripture which bears on authority is often hard for some to accept - we need to be sure that we aren't among those people. Jude warns us about them:

"Yet in like manner these dreamers also defile the flesh, and despise lordship, and speak railingly against dignities. But Michael the archangel, when disputing with the devil he reasoned about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a railing judgment against him, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these, whatever things they know not, they speak railingly against; but what even, as the irrational animals, they understand by mere nature, in these things they corrupt themselves. Woe to them! because they have gone in the way of Cain, and given themselves up to the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core." - Jude 1:8-11

This is a bleak picture. It's the line of Cain, Balaam and Korah. Although I don't think Jude is speaking about anyone who is a believer here, I think we need to on our guard against this way of thinking.

The answer is to "Return to Biblical Christianity"!!!!!

 

[Major]

Actually Paul say

Honestly when I first read the passage I thought the same and your absolutely right we are not bound by tradition only by the word of God! However the one phrase that kept bothering me and I ended back at was where Paul says that a woman's head ought to be covered as a witness to the angels. Please if you have any information regarding this passage then I am honestly wanting to hear it. I will say that I don't believe a woman has to wear a hijab the covering like Muslim women wear that's a little extreme IMO, and there's nothing in there that says a woman has to have a head covering at all times just when she is praying. Now I will admit I dont always do this I was and then got out of the habit.

1 Corth. 11:10........
"A woman's head ought to be covered as a witness to the angels".

The truth is that there’s no way we can know with absolute certainty what it means.

However, there are many Scriptures about angels that I believe shed light on this passage. If we study the Scriptures on angels I think we will end up with two possible conclusions. Both conclusions could be right as they don’t contradict each other, but it may be only one that Paul had meant.

1).
The purpose for head coverings is to provide a visual symbol to the gathered church. If angels are a reason why we obey this command, it presupposes that they must be watching us worship. Nothing else would make sense. So, one understanding of why we practice head coverings is so that we may rightly symbolize the created order to all present; both visible and invisible.

Eph. 3:10.............
"So that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places."

2).
The Scriptures not only portray angels as directly involved with our prayers as seen in Rev 8:3-4, they also state that angels tell God whether or not we’re obeying. This understanding doesn’t have to contradict the first conclusion as there can be multiple reasons for why we practice this for the angels.

Let me show you something. On judgment day we have to give an account for everything that we’ve said as told in Matt 12:36 or done in 1 Cor 3:13. What does that mean then?????
Some one is keeping a record. Somebody is writing stuff down!!!

Also there are verses that speak of ways our prayers are hindered such as neglecting the poor in Prov. 21:13 and being a bad husband as seen in 1 Pet 3:7. Those are sins that must be observed, recorded and reported. Although it’s possible that God knows these events solely through his omniscience, and I have no doubt that is possible I think Jesus teaches something else.

Matthew 18:10.........
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven. "