I will show you my faith by my works

[JohnC]

Hey all,

I have been thinking about this a lot lately.....

Richard Wuermbrand (Of Voice of the Martyrs) commented in a 1960's tape that you could confront atheists with the fact that NO atheist hospitals, orphanages, or charities even existed.....

Now.... try to even SUGGEST that a Hospital, charity, or orphanage ought to encourage faith in Jesus...

In the USA at least - most every church has seen a significant "Falling off" of public Christian works of faith... In the 1950's - over 75% of hospitals in the USA were Christian - AND were run by religious orders within the churches (Catholic and protestant).. Nearly 100% of orphanages were Christian run by religious orders.... Soup kitchens, disaster outreach programs, poverty assistance, and charities - were by and large run by Churches.... and the majority of the ones that weren't Christian were run STILL run by a Religion - such as Jewish hospitals and charities....

Hospitals: Over 90% of hospitals in the USA are owned by non-religiously affiliated public or private corporations... and while some are "Non-profit" - they aren't Christian....

Orphans: Now - well over 90% of orphans are cared for by Government sponsored programs...

The poor: over 99% of support for the poor is coming from atheist Government programs....

and we are seeing this in every facet of life where The Church had previously been at the forefront of doing "Good works" for the public as a TESTIMONY of our faith in Jesus and as a primary OUTREACH tool....

We forget that Jesus and the Early church served the community by SERVING.. They gave strong testimony of their faith by SERVING... and their service was often what the unbelieving SAW as evidence OF their faith..... Helping the poor, healing the sick, caring for the invalid, visiting the prisoners, taking in the orphans and widows - this was often THE DOOR that opened to The Gospel Message....

Where are we at now? Revelation 3:1-6 Sardis... We profess a NAME that we are vibrant and alive - but by our WORKS - the evidence is that we are dead.. Even the works that are still here are DYING.... The few Christian Charities, Orphanages, Hospitals, disaster relief and "Public works" outreaches are shrinking... Support by their founding and supporting churches is waning as government pressure over Licensing, Insurance, Benefits, and Wages continues to grow..... Our "Works" are DYING.... Church members are not PARTICIPATING in these things because they are not being ENCOURAGED to participate in these things..... WE are not proclaiming that you SHOW your faith by service and love.... We are happy to stop with well-wishing and hoping quietly that things somehow get better on their own...

What then? Revelation 3:2-3 stands clear as the prescription... The call to each one of us individually... "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you."

So.. The things that are dead are DEAD... Gone. Leave those things dead for now... Don't worry about the Hospital or Orphanage that closed in 1972... We must step up to the plate FIRST with the things that remain.... and these things are FEW... WE as Laity must lead and participate in these things - not simply put them on the plate of our over-burdened pastors.

AND - we must WATCH.. As the Laity - We must discern... WE must be the ones paying attention to our own ministries... If we end up with leaders who don't lead - get them out... If we end up with Deacons who don't SERVE - get them out... If we have wonderful ministries that are sitting idle because of some bishop who doesn't have the drive - GO FIND 2 or 3 Witnesses and bear testimony that WE want to DO these things.. and if YOU don't really have the drive - then let ME do it.....

The time is short. We are at great risk of being completely irrelevant.

Thanks

 

[Steve Campbell]

In this world that is falling away, we who are faithful (the best we know how to be, and by His Strength) are able to make a choice. We can see the glass as half full or half empty. Sometimes I see it BOTH ways.

When you talk of agencies or charities that seem to be falling by the wayside, I think of a group like Pacific Garden Mission (PGM) in Chicago. You might know of them because of a regular drama broadcast called "Unshackled" that they produce regularly.

To ME, PGM seems to be thriving. It does a mighty work for God in the midst of all the rest of the failed "ministries" out there.

No big revelation here; I just wanted to put in a plug for those ministries like "PGM" that hold fast to the Word Of Life, and continue to win souls and make a difference in a positive way, in their community. If "I" was hopeless, lost and without a home, I know that "I" would head for "PGM."

Who knows......

-soupy

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Hey all,


I have been thinking about this a lot lately.....


Richard Wuermbrand (Of Voice of the Martyrs) commented in a 1960's tape that you could confront atheists with the fact that NO atheist hospitals, orphanages, or charities even existed.....


Now.... try to even SUGGEST that a Hospital, charity, or orphanage ought to encourage faith in Jesus...


In the USA at least - most every church has seen a significant "Falling off" of public Christian works of faith... In the 1950's - over 75% of hospitals in the USA were Christian - AND were run by religious orders within the churches (Catholic and protestant).. Nearly 100% of orphanages were Christian run by religious orders.... Soup kitchens, disaster outreach programs, poverty assistance, and charities - were by and large run by Churches.... and the majority of the ones that weren't Christian were run STILL run by a Religion - such as Jewish hospitals and charities....


Hospitals: Over 90% of hospitals in the USA are owned by non-religiously affiliated public or private corporations... and while some are "Non-profit" - they aren't Christian....


Orphans: Now - well over 90% of orphans are cared for by Government sponsored programs...


The poor: over 99% of support for the poor is coming from atheist Government programs....


and we are seeing this in every facet of life where The Church had previously been at the forefront of doing "Good works" for the public as a TESTIMONY of our faith in Jesus and as a primary OUTREACH tool....


We forget that Jesus and the Early church served the community by SERVING.. They gave strong testimony of their faith by SERVING... and their service was often what the unbelieving SAW as evidence OF their faith..... Helping the poor, healing the sick, caring for the invalid, visiting the prisoners, taking in the orphans and widows - this was often THE DOOR that opened to The Gospel Message....


Where are we at now? Revelation 3:1-6 Sardis... We profess a NAME that we are vibrant and alive - but by our WORKS - the evidence is that we are dead.. Even the works that are still here are DYING.... The few Christian Charities, Orphanages, Hospitals, disaster relief and "Public works" outreaches are shrinking... Support by their founding and supporting churches is waning as government pressure over Licensing, Insurance, Benefits, and Wages continues to grow..... Our "Works" are DYING.... Church members are not PARTICIPATING in these things because they are not being ENCOURAGED to participate in these things..... WE are not proclaiming that you SHOW your faith by service and love.... We are happy to stop with well-wishing and hoping quietly that things somehow get better on their own...


What then? Revelation 3:2-3 stands clear as the prescription... The call to each one of us individually... "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you."


So.. The things that are dead are DEAD... Gone. Leave those things dead for now... Don't worry about the Hospital or Orphanage that closed in 1972... We must step up to the plate FIRST with the things that remain.... and these things are FEW... WE as Laity must lead and participate in these things - not simply put them on the plate of our over-burdened pastors.


AND - we must WATCH.. As the Laity - We must discern... WE must be the ones paying attention to our own ministries... If we end up with leaders who don't lead - get them out... If we end up with Deacons who don't SERVE - get them out... If we have wonderful ministries that are sitting idle because of some bishop who doesn't have the drive - GO FIND 2 or 3 Witnesses and bear testimony that WE want to DO these things.. and if YOU don't really have the drive - then let ME do it.....


The time is short. We are at great risk of being completely irrelevant.


Thanks

John Hello,
As I finished reading this I could not help but seeing it is about us. If they are not what wee want get them out bring 2 or 3 and get them out and get them out if you don't want to do it the way we think it should be done then get them out and let me do it.

I have a hard time with this type of thinking and here is why......Pastors are called.......not all that are pastors are called i do see this but they are called by God and answer unto God.

These are the servant of God and He is more then able to take care of them or deal with them. If you as an individual or group and I do not care if it is 89 out of 100 people do not agree with how things are then you have one true choice..........GET ON YOU KNEE'S AND PRAY....Seek God for His DIRECTION. God does not go around and tell His people to cause an up rise and split the church or what have you.

You need to find your place and get there and simply grow where He has planted you. It is not about what you think or feel should be - but rather what does the Father want in this situation. God may send you to a place that seems a mess and backwards but if it is where he sent you then simply obey and seek God and find out what He has planned.

A huge problem in the Christian body these days is every one THINKS they know what God is doing or saying or wants and clearly have no real clue. They figure this all out by reading things into the times and so forth.

Example....Jesus heals a man and straightly charges him to tell NO ONE what HE had done and go show the priest and tell them.........The guy is all high and mighty and full of joy and goes out telling every one what Jesus has done. This man THINKS he is helping God out by speaking to every one of this........WRONG

FIRST THING IS .........Jesus has to switch gears and get out in a boat to try and teach what he had planned on teaching because this man stirred up the crowds and people came pressing in....YES GOD CAN WORK AROUND IT BUT....and I say again BUT this is NO EXCUSE for disobedience...........not only did Jesus not speak to the people in the way He had set forth to do but the PRIEST NEVER GOT MINISTERED TO.

ALL I am saying is............It is Time to Find out what God wants and stop playing judge and jury on the things of God.
God Bless
Jim

 

[Cturtle]

So.. The things that are dead are DEAD... Gone. Leave those things dead for now... Don't worry about the Hospital or Orphanage that closed in 1972... We must step up to the plate FIRST with the things that remain.... and these things are FEW... WE as Laity must lead and participate in these things - not simply put them on the plate of our over-burdened pastors.

AND - we must WATCH.. As the Laity - We must discern... WE must be the ones paying attention to our own ministries... If we end up with leaders who don't lead - get them out... If we end up with Deacons who don't SERVE - get them out... If we have wonderful ministries that are sitting idle because of some bishop who doesn't have the drive - GO FIND 2 or 3 Witnesses and bear testimony that WE want to DO these things.. and if YOU don't really have the drive - then let ME do it.....

The time is short. We are at great risk of being completely irrelevant.

Thanks

As i read what you wrote and can agree that more of us believers should be standing up and telling God "Sir, yes Sir....where can i go or what can i do for you" my problem is that we should not just be trying to figure things out on our own. We should be seeking God first and allowing Him to lead us and guide us. It's our duty to obey Him, not just jump into something that sounds like a good idea, and try to "resurrect" it, or keep it going. There may be a reason (like disobedience in the leadership or something else) that God is already dealing with and by our intervention we could get in the way, or hinder what God is doing.

In response to your last paragraph.......the pastor of a church is head of a flock...and should be answering to God and only God, and relying on God to give him the messages to speak. The pastor Never should be listening to anyone in the flock for direction of sermons. If we feel like that deacon or pastor is not doing their job then as we should be already praying for God to give them utterance....we can be lifting them up and speaking the Word of God over their lives

Blessings of grace and peace be yours in abundance!

 

[JohnC]

In response to your last paragraph.......the pastor of a church is head of a flock...and should be answering to God and only God, and relying on God to give him the messages to speak. The pastor Never should be listening to anyone in the flock for direction of sermons. If we feel like that deacon or pastor is not doing their job then as we should be already praying for God to give them utterance....we can be lifting them up and speaking the Word of God over their lives!

Be real careful with this. It has dangerous implications. This is the foundation of "Nicolaitain" doctrine cautioned in Revelation 2 - 3 - aka "Power over the Laity"... In the early church - there was not really a professional "Clergy" which had right of absolute "Rule" over a laity per-se - they were ALL servants.... Some were "Sent" with Authority (Apostles) and some earned a position as "Overseer" but they were NEVER authorized to "Rule over" in the sense of "I am above and you are below. You do what I say"....

This sort of doctrine came much later - where you saw an official "Church" doctrine that the Leadership held ABSOLUTE authority and in fact, spoke for God Himself in all matters - and the laity were to accept it no matter whether it contradicted previous revelation in the scriptures or not....

While the pastor is "Shepherd" over the flock - think of this for a minute.... A "Shepherd's" life is dedicated to the well being and growth of the flock.... BUT - a key understanding is that just like a Shepherd can't FORCE the growth of the flock - neither can a pastor force the growth of a church.. Just as The Flock grows in response to proper management - so does The Church.... The shepherd must be intimately aware of the growth, conditions, and needs of the flock - and move, adjust, and make changes as needed to CONTINUE growth....

Now, let's talk reality for a minute here.... The VAST majority of churches have been run with an emphasis of the Professional Clergy doing ALL the "Growth" related activities - Service, visitation, outreach, leader development, teaching, training equipping, etc... What happens is that when the Overworked and underpaid Pastor hears the member saying "I think we need......" - the fellow GROANS within himself because he knows what that fellow REALLY means.... That fellow REALLY means "Pastor, I want YOU to start, coordinate, plan, and grow this new ministry because I think it might be fruitful... and I think you need to do it all by yourself... I have no desire to PARTICIPATE in it, much less lead it... but I think it would be good for the church...."

Trust me brother - that's not where I am going with this.... I feel like WE the Laity have been HORRIBLY foolish in our approach to OUR churches.. Dumping everything into the lap of our over-burdened pastors when this stuff is REALLY OUR JOB, and then complaining when it's not done to our satisfaction.... It's not the PASTOR'S job to do all the serving - it's OURS... It's not the pastor's job to visit the sick, poor, prisoners, heal the sick, comfort,teach, encourage, and evangelize - that's OUR JOB..... The pastor's job is to PREPARE US to do it... To help US learn how to coordinate, teach, comfort, encourage.... To make sure WE are growing and becoming PREPARED to do it properly....

Thanks