I'd like your answers to this only - I'll not be replying or debating

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Phoneman777

Phoneman777

1) According to 2 Thessalonians 2:5,6, Paul told the Early Church the identity of the Restrainer which was preventing the rise of Antichrist.

2) The Early Church Fathers claim that Paul told them that the Restrainer was the Pagan Roman Empire (see point #5 of link).
http://nicklasarthur.wordpress.com/...-fathers-were-historicist-h-grattan-guinness/

3) "Left Behind" Christians today teach that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit and the the ECF were confused about what Paul told them.

Question: Is it reasonable to conclude that the great, learned, spirit-filled ECF confused the THIRD PERSON OF THE GODHEAD with an earthly PAGAN empire?
 
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Why are you asking again? Is there any possibility you can be convinced otherwise, at this time? Go to Thomas Ice homepage and he answers. (http://www.pre-trib.org/ )


OR : http://www.gotquestions.org/restrainer.html

Question: "Who / What is the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6?"

Answer: 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 mentions a “restrainer” that is holding back sin and lawlessness. What or who that restraining force is, Paul does not say specifically in this letter. Many have speculated as to the identity of the restrainer, naming the restraining force as 1) human government; 2) gospel preaching; 3) the binding of Satan; 4) the providence of God; 5) the Jewish state; 6) the church; 7) the Holy Spirit; and 8) Michael. Whatever now restrains the Antichrist of vv. 3, 4, 8–10 from being revealed in the fullness of his apostasy and evil must be more than human or even angelic power. The power that holds back Satan from bringing the final apostasy and unveiling of his Satan-possessed false Christ (the Antichrist) must be supernatural. It must be God’s power in operation that holds back Satan, so that the “man of sin,” “the son of destruction” (v. 3) won’t be able to come until God permits it by removing the restraining power. The reason for the restraint was so that the Antichrist would be revealed at God’s appointed time and no sooner, just as was Christ (Gal. 4:4), because God controls Satan.

The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with sufficient (supernatural) power to do this restraining. How does He do it? Through Christians, He works in society to hold back the swelling tide of lawless living. At some point, though, He will be removed from the earth, allowing sin to have dominion over mankind. This can only happen when the Church—all true believers in Jesus Christ—is removed. This is because the Holy Spirit lives within each believer. When the church leaves the earth at the rapture, the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way in the sense that His unique lawlessness-restraining ministry—through God's people— will be removed (see Genesis 6:3).

The removal of the Restrainer at the time of the rapture must obviously precede the “day of the Lord.” But as soon as individuals again start placing their faith in Christ during the tribulation, the Holy Spirit will again be “present” in the world. His ministry of restraining, though, seems limited to the time before the tribulation.


Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/restrainer.html#ixzz3Jl0ETmmQ
 
Phoneman777 said:
1) According to 2 Thessalonians 2:5,6, Paul told the Early Church the identity of the Restrainer which was preventing the rise of Antichrist.

2) The Early Church Fathers claim that Paul told them that the Restrainer was the Pagan Roman Empire (see point #5 of link).
http://nicklasarthur.wordpress.com/...-fathers-were-historicist-h-grattan-guinness/

3) "Left Behind" Christians today teach that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit and the the ECF were confused about what Paul told them.

Question: Is it reasonable to conclude that the great, learned, spirit-filled ECF confused the THIRD PERSON OF THE GODHEAD with an earthly PAGAN empire?
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AGAIN?????

Phoneman.....give it a rest will ya. We have beaten this to death and you even caused the last thread to be canceled.

YOU will not be convinced and neither will us who believe the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit and not the Roman Empire.

The idea that the evil, Christian killing Roman Empire could be the Restrainer that "hold" back sin makes no sense at all.
 
Silk said:
Why are you asking again? Is there any possibility you can be convinced otherwise, at this time? Go to Thomas Ice homepage and he answers. (http://www.pre-trib.org/ )


OR : http://www.gotquestions.org/restrainer.html

Question: "Who / What is the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6?"

Answer: 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 mentions a “restrainer” that is holding back sin and lawlessness. What or who that restraining force is, Paul does not say specifically in this letter. Many have speculated as to the identity of the restrainer, naming the restraining force as 1) human government; 2) gospel preaching; 3) the binding of Satan; 4) the providence of God; 5) the Jewish state; 6) the church; 7) the Holy Spirit; and 8) Michael. Whatever now restrains the Antichrist of vv. 3, 4, 8–10 from being revealed in the fullness of his apostasy and evil must be more than human or even angelic power. The power that holds back Satan from bringing the final apostasy and unveiling of his Satan-possessed false Christ (the Antichrist) must be supernatural. It must be God’s power in operation that holds back Satan, so that the “man of sin,” “the son of destruction” (v. 3) won’t be able to come until God permits it by removing the restraining power. The reason for the restraint was so that the Antichrist would be revealed at God’s appointed time and no sooner, just as was Christ (Gal. 4:4), because God controls Satan.

The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with sufficient (supernatural) power to do this restraining. How does He do it? Through Christians, He works in society to hold back the swelling tide of lawless living. At some point, though, He will be removed from the earth, allowing sin to have dominion over mankind. This can only happen when the Church—all true believers in Jesus Christ—is removed. This is because the Holy Spirit lives within each believer. When the church leaves the earth at the rapture, the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way in the sense that His unique lawlessness-restraining ministry—through God's people— will be removed (see Genesis 6:3).

The removal of the Restrainer at the time of the rapture must obviously precede the “day of the Lord.” But as soon as individuals again start placing their faith in Christ during the tribulation, the Holy Spirit will again be “present” in the world. His ministry of restraining, though, seems limited to the time before the tribulation.


Read more: [URL='http://www.gotquestions.org/restrainer.html#ixzz3Jl0ETmmQ[/QUOTE']http://www.gotquestions.org/restrainer.html#ixzz3Jl0ETmmQ[/QUOTE[/URL]]

Silk........it will make no difference to Phoneman. Believe me when I tell you I have spent hours now speaking with him on this same thing and it is a lost cause.
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...Paul told the Early Church the identity of the Restrainer which was preventing the rise of Antichrist.

2) The Early Church Fathers claim that Paul told them that the Restrainer was the Pagan Roman Empire...

3) "Left Behind" Christians today teach that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit and the the ECF were confused about what Paul told them.

Question: Is it reasonable to conclude that the great, learned, spirit-filled ECF confused the THIRD PERSON OF THE GODHEAD with an earthly PAGAN empire?
Click to expand...
The restrainer is the entity, referred to as a "he" in II Thessalonians, that holds back the mystery of iniquity (read the spirit of the Antichrist). The early church held the restrainer to be a political power, most likely Rome (Acts 18:16), that restrained the Spirit of Antichrist that inhabited the Christ-rejecting nation of Judaea. The Rapture Cult, seeking to buttress their doctrine of the church's removal, developed the idea the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, who would then be removed with the church. Scripture never shows the Holy Ghost in a martial role, but the archangel Michael is frequently seen in the militant sort of spiritual warfare required to restrain the power inherent in the rejection of Christ (See Daniel 10).

Why are you asking again? Is there any possibility you can be convinced otherwise, at this time? Go to Thomas Ice homepage and he answers....
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Beware of hyperdispensationalist Thomas Ice and his dishonest tactics.

For example,

“Margaret Macdonald's handwritten account in 1830 of her pre-Antichrist (or pretribulation) rapture discovery was reproduced in two of the 19th century books written by Catholic Apostolic Church historian Robert Norton. Her statement has long been in the public domain. Following my discovery of Norton's works and my publication of her words, several persons in recent years have reprinted it.

But some, like militant pretrib rapture defender and diehard Thomas Ice, have had trouble reproducing it accurately. In addition to a total of 49 omitted words in different sections, Ice's 1989 reproduction had 12 added words plus errors in spelling, capitalization, and punctuation! Moreover, I discovered that Ice's version also included four distinctive errors that Hal Lindsey had made in his 1983 reproduction, and that Tim LaHaye's 1992 reproduction left behind the same 49 words that Ice had left behind three years earlier! I've found that pretrib rapture promoters would rather copy - and miscopy - each other than take time to locate primary research documents! (By the way, my margins pinpoint Ice's - and LaHaye's - missing words; e.g., "10W" = 10 words.)

Neither Ice nor LaHaye has ever responded to my letters asking about their glaring omissions. Interestingly, if you look for the "Thomas Ice Collection" on websites including Rapture Ready's, you will find that "The Origin of the Pretrib Rapture - Part I" (the above Ice perversion was part of it) is glaringly missing, and the paper you're now reading demonstrates why! If your pharmacist or doctor or lawyer or mechanic would have the sloppiness that many pretrib rapture promoters have, would you still trust them?"

[source: “Thomas Ice (Bloopers)”]

Rest assured that God will never leave us or forsake us. (Heb. 13:5)
 
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I did not see a pretrib rapture in scripture until several months ago. If you read the articles in my links, none of them are by Ice, however he and LeHaye are both founders. I'm well aware of the history @sojourner4Christ has posted and discounted it then and now. I watched a streaming event a few months ago where Ice was a speaker and his extrapolation of scriptural based pretrib was impressive enough to have me follow thru the arguments. And voila! there it was. I admit it is not easily seen but it fits all criteria. Go back and read the articles (long, I know). They give all sides of the argument based soley on scripture.
 
Abdicate said:
I find it amazing how much anti-rapture there is in the world today. Some call it "Second Coming Fatigue". Did you know this is a fulfillment of prophecy? Thank you.
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Tell, tell :).
I think Revelation was written, purposefully, so that each generation will think it is their own generation which will see the Second Coming. And each previous generation has been off on it. Except ours, of course. Ours fulfill the most criteria. (hehehe). But each generation of believer will see it.
 
2 Peter 3:4 (KJV)
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
 
Thank you all for your responses, but so far no has addressed the question I posed, so I'll present it again:

1) Paul says he revealed the identity of the Restrainer when he visited the Thessalonians, and that they were fully aware of who it was (2 Thess. 2:5,6).

2) The testimony of the ECF from the earliest times claims that Paul told them that the Restrainer was the Roman Empire.

OK, here is the question again:

Is it reasonable to believe that Paul told the early church that the Restrainer was the Holy Spirit, but these great, learned, devout, spirit-filled ECF were so lacking in basic listening and comprehension skills that when Paul told them "Holy Spirit", they somehow understood him to say "Pagan Roman Empire" and went on to record this "error" for posterity?
 
And PS: The arguments I listed are all scriptural, it all pertains to Thessalonians 1 & 2 and the verses you sited. Every generation of believers thought that they would see the second coming in their earthly life, including the disciples and apostles and followers. Genesis is purposefully written with that in mind. Every generation looks for the antichrist.
 
Silk said:
And PS: The arguments I listed are all scriptural, it all pertains to Thessalonians 1 & 2 and the verses you sited. Every generation of believers thought that they would see the second coming in their earthly life, including the disciples and apostles and followers. Genesis is purposefully written with that in mind. Every generation looks for the antichrist.
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Dear sister, you are evading the question. I'm not asking for arguments regarding the plausibility of Futurism, Preterism, or Historicism. I'm asking you to answer the question. :)
 
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Rome was still an empire when the early fathers looked for the antichrist. It is not reasonable to assume anything outside of scripture. Paul could have been wrong about who he thought the restrainer was or didn't know or wasn't given to understand the precise nature of events leading to the 2nd coming. There are a lot of manuscripts that didn't make it into canon. Maybe there is a reason for that? Paul does not name the restrainer but the Roman empire died out a long long time ago. Early followers of Christ often said this disciple or that apostle said this and they ended up in the Nag Hamadi ground. Paul implies qualities of the restrainer that don't match a human government. (see link)
 
The same early fathers also decided canon - why wasn't the restrainer's identity included there if Paul told them?
 
Silk said:
Rome was still an empire when the early fathers looked for the antichrist. It is not reasonable to assume anything outside of scripture. Paul could have been wrong about who he thought the restrainer was or didn't know or wasn't given to understand the precise nature of events leading to the 2nd coming. There are a lot of manuscripts that didn't make it into canon. Maybe there is a reason for that? Paul does not name the restrainer but the Roman empire died out a long long time ago. Early followers of Christ often said this disciple or that apostle said this and they ended up in the Nag Hamadi ground. Paul implies qualities of the restrainer that don't match a human government. (see link)
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So, although Paul under the aegis of the Holy Spirit declares to the entire Christian world that he knew who it was, you say he perhaps did not know. Thank you for your answer.
 
Sorry but that is not what I meant - I meant that Paul DID NOT say in scripture who/what the restrainer was. And we don't know precisely what he supposedly told one of the forefathers - just that it didn't make it into scripture or canon. I forgot but you do think the restrainer is Rome right? And as you seem to like history, you know Rome fell, right? Did the 2nd coming happen in one of those centuries when I wasn't looking? The spirit of the antichrist was alive and in the world in the desert/wilderness tempting Christ and has been around since aka Satan/Lucifer/Adversary. But is that the antichrist and false prophet talked about in Revelation?
 
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