If the trinity is not true

KingJ

KingJ

I was thinking today how sad it is for those who don't believe in the trinity. One-day when they grasp this / are completely sold on the idea, I doubt they will stay Christians.

If the trinity is not true:

1. John 3:16 'For God so loved the world'. Should read 'For God found someone to love the world'.

2. 1 John 14:8 'God is love'. Should read 'God is not love'. As true love is John 15:13.

3. Worshipping Jesus would be breaking the first commandment.

4. We would doubt the truthfulness of what the Holy Spirit teaches us.

5. We would not feel very special / care much for serving God. I mean David says give thanks because God is good Psalm 136:1. He can't be bothered to die for us. He gets some random unlucky fella to die for us and then demands we die to self? He sends a random spirit to teach us? Can't be bothered to teach us?

I don't believe there is a need to post more. These 5 points alone show how we can take so many scriptures and just throw them out if the trinity is not true. Every scripture on God being good, just and loving will be doubted for starters. Exactly what the devil would want.
 
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KingJ said:
I was thinking today how sad it is for those who don't believe in the trinity. One-day when they grasp this / are completely sold on the idea, I doubt they will stay Christians.

If the trinity is not true:

1. John 3:16 'For God so loved the world'. Should read 'For God found someone to love the world'.

2. 1 John 14:8 'God is love'. Should read 'God is not love'. As true love is John 15:13.

3. Worshipping Jesus would be breaking the first commandment.

4. We would doubt the truthfulness of what the Holy Spirit teaches us.

5. We would not feel very special / care much for serving God. I mean David says give thanks because God is good Psalm 136:1. He can't be bothered to die for us. He gets some random unlucky fella to die for us and then demands we die to self? He sends a random spirit to teach us? Can't be bothered to teach us?

I don't believe there is a need to post more. These 5 points alone show how we can take so many scriptures and just throw them out if the trinity is not true. Every scripture on God being good, just and loving will be doubted for starters. Exactly what the devil would want.
Click to expand...
Yes, one has to ignore a lot of scripture to deny the triune nature of God.
 
No true BORN child of God could deny the Trinity of God . For we are born by the will of the Father through the SON by the Holy Spirit .
But what does happen is that a new born child of God or one not properly taught may well be caught off guard by the foolish questions of unbelievers and while in their spirit they know it is true they are unable to articulate the truth of it and can be led to doubt the truth of it because of their 'ignorance' or inability.
It is no use trying to explain or teach a person higher mathematics when they have not even learnt 1+1 +2. So bring an unbeliever back to the question of his own sin and how he can be reconciled to God.
and if a Moslem as they are often want . Ask them first how Islam can reconcile a man who by nature is a sinner to God who by nature is Holy and if they can answer that satisfactorily then you will answer their question.
But forget even trying to give them any answer on the subject. Before the other .
We are not debtors to the flesh .Our own or another.
aand we are here to do the will of God not answer spurious questions of unbelievers.

In Christ
gerald
 
Makes you wonder how trinity deniers can explain the way salvation happens. If Jesus is just another prophet, albeit the preeminent one, how can His blood cleanse me of my sin? They would have us believe He was just like Moses, in that He was used by God for a purpose for a period of time, and then off to the next prophet. Except the next prophet did not materialize. How could just another prophet be the "be all and end all" of Judaism? I'm sure Israel went without a prophet from time to time throughout the ages, but not for over 2000 years. Obviously something special happened with this Jesus.
Having the direct seed of God, He is much more than just someone we all should emulate. He has the direct inheritance of God and is imbued with the same attributes. Which is why the Pharisees were so upset by Jesus' assertion that He was the Son of God who was with Him before the world began.
These people must also answer why Jesus is the King of God's Kingdom. Why would He have all authority? Why is He due so much honor and respect if He is not an equal element with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. What was the Spirit who hovered over the waters in creation? Too many questions without any answers.
 
Mans philosophies as also the worlds religions only provoke more questions.
The Bible on the other hand has more answers than any man has questions.

in Christ
gerald
 
Big Moose said:
Makes you wonder how trinity deniers can explain the way salvation happens. If Jesus is just another prophet, albeit the preeminent one, how can His blood cleanse me of my sin? They would have us believe He was just like Moses, in that He was used by God for a purpose for a period of time, and then off to the next prophet. Except the next prophet did not materialize. How could just another prophet be the "be all and end all" of Judaism? I'm sure Israel went without a prophet from time to time throughout the ages, but not for over 2000 years. Obviously something special happened with this Jesus.
Having the direct seed of God, He is much more than just someone we all should emulate. He has the direct inheritance of God and is imbued with the same attributes. Which is why the Pharisees were so upset by Jesus' assertion that He was the Son of God who was with Him before the world began.
These people must also answer why Jesus is the King of God's Kingdom. Why would He have all authority? Why is He due so much honor and respect if He is not an equal element with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. What was the Spirit who hovered over the waters in creation? Too many questions without any answers.
Click to expand...
I wrote this some time ago:

To Trinity or not to Trinity?
http://abdicate.net/blog/?p=612

In Defense of the Trinity
http://abdicate.net/blog/?p=616
 
God is One (Hebrew word: Echad), not three. “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Jesus is God in the Flesh... He is our everlasting Father. He is the Breath of Life..........

All are the one and the same... He is the I AM...
 
followerofchrist72 said:
God is One (Hebrew word: Echad), not three. “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Jesus is God in the Flesh... He is our everlasting Father. He is the Breath of Life..........

All are the one and the same... He is the I AM...
Click to expand...

Tell me . The one who speaks and the word that is spoken are they the same?
Is not the one who speaks the father of the Word spoken?
Tell me which is greater ? The one who speaks or the Word that is spoken?>
In the beginning was the Word .
"No man cometh unto the Father accept by me "
For God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.
"He who speaketh of Himself seeketh his own glory ,But he that seeketh the glory of Him that sent him,the same is true and there is no unrighteousness in him" John 17 : 18.
"Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth form the mouth of the Father."
"For as the Father hath life in Himself ,so hath he given to the Son to have life in Himself " John 5:26
"He then that has the Son has life and he who has not the Son has not yet seen life"

"Let US make man in our image ..."
Let US go down ........"
The first covenant was between the Trinity of the Godhead . "Let us make man in our image"

In Christ
gerald
 
geralduk said:
if man is a tri-part being .Then did not God make man in his own image?
Click to expand...
Man or human beings are not tri-part in nature.
But like all things pertaining to the world and creation has FOUR aspects of his being.
In our physical universe and the created world everything comes in fours... that's why most references to natural times and periods cover
four days or forty days... reference to time as the fourth dimension. Plus all geography is essentially of four directions.
Man and woman = body (flesh, outer shell); mind (intellect, thoughts, expression of inner content); heart (emotions, core inner self, out of a good
heart cometh good desires, or to be hard hearted or cold hearted, etc.); soul (our eternal soul given to us when a child is born and takes breath).
The soul is our spirit - the spirit of man. That is why people are always searching for moral answers and purpose of life.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Romans 8:16
For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man,
but the Spirit of God. 1Corinthians 2:11
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Corinthians 5:5
Although the following verse suggests a distinction between soul and spirit -
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless
unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. IThessalonians 5:23
spirit = Strong's G4151 pneuma - a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is,
(human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.,
soul = Strong's G5590 psuchē - breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only;
thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222,
which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]:
 
Waggles said:
Man or human beings are not tri-part in nature.
But like all things pertaining to the world and creation has FOUR aspects of his being.
In our physical universe and the created world everything comes in fours... that's why most references to natural times and periods cover
four days or forty days... reference to time as the fourth dimension. Plus all geography is essentially of four directions.
Man and woman = body (flesh, outer shell); mind (intellect, thoughts, expression of inner content); heart (emotions, core inner self, out of a good
heart cometh good desires, or to be hard hearted or cold hearted, etc.); soul (our eternal soul given to us when a child is born and takes breath).
The soul is our spirit - the spirit of man. That is why people are always searching for moral answers and purpose of life.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Romans 8:16
For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man,
but the Spirit of God. 1Corinthians 2:11
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Corinthians 5:5
Although the following verse suggests a distinction between soul and spirit -
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless
unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. IThessalonians 5:23
spirit = Strong's G4151 pneuma - a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is,
(human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.,
soul = Strong's G5590 psuchē - breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only;
thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222,
which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]:
Click to expand...

It is not |I who says man is tri part but Paul .
Nowhere in the scriptures is man spoken of as four part.
But what is clearly taught is that he is of MIND BODY AND SPIRIT .
and that we maybe wholly sanctified in them.
Man does not seek God . He may on occasion ask himself what is the purpose of life. But it will be found that prompt is also of God and more than likely an answer to anothers prayer.

The mind is the betwixt the body and the spirit .
The spirit of man is dead to God . For man is cut off at the root . Dead in trespasses and in sin.
The mind of man then is blind and man without God has to live by his 'wits' and cunning but sees as like a blind man hands outstretched groping in the dark.
The Body is subject to sin and death .
Mans perception is what is right or good in his own eyes . Mans reasoning is equally as dark for there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the ways thereof are the ways of death.

They that are joined to the |Lord are of ONE Spirit .For His Spirit has quickened made alive our spirits and we are now "alive unto God" and capabale both of speaking an listening to God.
The body is still subject to sin and death but it has now been redeemed by the blood of the lamb and is the purchased possession "ready to be revealed"
The mind when we are BORN again has still to be renewed for new BORN "babes" cannot truly handle the Word of God as it should be for they are yet carnal in mind and needs must be fed with milk .untill they are able to eat "strong meat".
When I say 'MAN' I do not exclude women .But we are NOT 'humans' but MANkind. for man was created out of the dust of the earth and women was created out of the body of the man . and it is man that has the seed not the woman this as every seed bringeth forth fruit after its own KIND. WE are then by birth of MAN kind.
In the rebirth we are also a new creation but of another seed and therefore of another kind.
partakers of the divine nature and sons of God.
Therefore our mind body and spirit are HIS a temple of the living God .
Which if you go to that pattern you will also find that the tabernacle made with hands was after three parts.
The outer court that speaks of the BODY .
The Holy place that speaks of the MIND
The Holy of Holies that speaks of the heart or spirit .

in Christ
gerald
 
Waggles said:
Man or human beings are not tri-part in nature.
But like all things pertaining to the world and creation has FOUR aspects of his being.
In our physical universe and the created world everything comes in fours... that's why most references to natural times and periods cover
four days or forty days... reference to time as the fourth dimension. Plus all geography is essentially of four directions.
Man and woman = body (flesh, outer shell); mind (intellect, thoughts, expression of inner content); heart (emotions, core inner self, out of a good
heart cometh good desires, or to be hard hearted or cold hearted, etc.); soul (our eternal soul given to us when a child is born and takes breath).
The soul is our spirit - the spirit of man. That is why people are always searching for moral answers and purpose of life.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Romans 8:16
For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man,
but the Spirit of God. 1Corinthians 2:11
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Corinthians 5:5
Although the following verse suggests a distinction between soul and spirit -
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless
unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. IThessalonians 5:23
spirit = Strong's G4151 pneuma - a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is,
(human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.,
soul = Strong's G5590 psuchē - breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only;
thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222,
which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]:
Click to expand...
The mind and heart are subsets of the soul.
 
KingJ said:
I was thinking today how sad it is for those who don't believe in the trinity. One-day when they grasp this / are completely sold on the idea, I doubt they will stay Christians.

If the trinity is not true:

1. John 3:16 'For God so loved the world'. Should read 'For God found someone to love the world'.

2. 1 John 14:8 'God is love'. Should read 'God is not love'. As true love is John 15:13.

3. Worshipping Jesus would be breaking the first commandment.

4. We would doubt the truthfulness of what the Holy Spirit teaches us.

5. We would not feel very special / care much for serving God. I mean David says give thanks because God is good Psalm 136:1. He can't be bothered to die for us. He gets some random unlucky fella to die for us and then demands we die to self? He sends a random spirit to teach us? Can't be bothered to teach us?

I don't believe there is a need to post more. These 5 points alone show how we can take so many scriptures and just throw them out if the trinity is not true. Every scripture on God being good, just and loving will be doubted for starters. Exactly what the devil would want.
Click to expand...

Question King. Do you believe that believing in the Trinity is an essential to salvation?

I certainly do.
 
NOTES on the TRINITY:

** Who RAISED Jesus from the dead?
The Father (Romans 6:4)?
The Son (John 2:19-21; 10:17,18)?
The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11)?
Or God ??? (Acts 3:26, 13:30, 17:30,31; 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; Hebrews 13:20)?​

** Who does the Bible say is God?
The Father (Ephesians 4:6)?
The Son (Titus 2:13; John 1:1, 20:28)?
The Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4)?
The one and only true God (Deuteronomy 4:35)?​

** Who CREATED the world?
The Father (John 14:2)?
The Son (Colossians1:16,17; John 1:1-3)?
The Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2; Psalm 104:30)?
Or God (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 11:3)?​

** Who SAVES man? Who REGENERATES man?
The Father (1 Peter 1:3)?
The Son (John 5:21, 4:14)?
The Holy Spirit (John 3:6; Titus 3:5)?
Or God (1 John 3:9)?​

** Who JUSTIFIES man?

** Who SANCTIFIES man?
The Father (Jude 1)?
The Son (Titus 2:14)?
The Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1:2)?
Or God (Exodus 31:13)?​

** Who propitiated God’s just anger against man for his sins?
The Father (1 John 4:14; John 3:16, 17:5, 18:11)?
The Son (Matthew 26:28; John 1:29; 1 John 2:2)?
The Holy Spirit(Hebrews 9:14)?
Or God??? (2 Corinthians 5:1; Acts 20:28)?​

Answer: Yes, He is One, Deu 6:4; Mark 12:29.
 
KingJ said:
I was thinking today how sad it is for those who don't believe in the trinity.
Click to expand...
Actually if you study @Abdicate post (#15) this raises the issue and fervent debate of ONENESS versus the TRINITY
I was recently on another US based forum where this debate between those who support/believe the Trinity take on those who
support/believe Oneness doctrine.
That is God is One with three expressions or manifestations. Father, Son (salvation) Holy Spirit (creation).
I am not too familiar with Oneness, but I think it goes along the lines that Jesus as a man (a son of Adam) was created for the sole purpose
of God inhabiting his body and fulfilling the Atonement sacrifice necessary for us.
Onenies as opposed to Trinnies say that the scriptures fully prove the Oneness of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and there is no further need for doctrinal or theological speculation, etc.
One (pun) problem I have with this is that Jesus gets to keep his new resurrected body and sits at the right hand of God. Also he continues
to be the mediator and intercessor between us and the Father.
How does this fit in with Oneness?
 
Waggles said:
Actually if you study @Abdicate post (#15) this raises the issue and fervent debate of ONENESS versus the TRINITY
I was recently on another US based forum where this debate between those who support/believe the Trinity take on those who
support/believe Oneness doctrine.
That is God is One with three expressions or manifestations. Father, Son (salvation) Holy Spirit (creation).
I am not too familiar with Oneness, but I think it goes along the lines that Jesus as a man (a son of Adam) was created for the sole purpose
of God inhabiting his body and fulfilling the Atonement sacrifice necessary for us.
Onenies as opposed to Trinnies say that the scriptures fully prove the Oneness of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and there is no further need for doctrinal or theological speculation, etc.
One (pun) problem I have with this is that Jesus gets to keep his new resurrected body and sits at the right hand of God. Also he continues
to be the mediator and intercessor between us and the Father.
How does this fit in with Oneness?
Click to expand...
Those differences sounds more like quibbling to me. The Trinity does in no way negate the oneness of God. Trinity is just man's way of trying to understand God in all His aspects.
In the same way, we have different aspects to our existence. We have bodies which do things like uttering words. The body speaks and carries out physical duties. Our intelligence conceives things that the body could not. Our spirit connects with realities which are not physical. How could the body or intellect find things funny or sad or frustrating or joyful? We cannot know God without our spirit.

So, we have different aspects to our existence, each defined and explainable, yet we are still one entity.
 
Truth is faithful and loving.
Faith is loving and true.
Love is faithful and true.

The three are intertwined.

To me, Jesus Christ is the embodiment of Faith.
God is the expression of Love.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth.

There is no separation from the three, it is impossible.
 
Major said:
Question King. Do you believe that believing in the Trinity is an essential to salvation?

I certainly do.
Click to expand...

A man can be saved with no knowledge and understanding of the Trinity of God at all. But He is saved By The father the Son and the holy Spirit all the same.
We grow in grace and in the knowledge of God and we cannot or should not reduce all things to being 'saved' or BORNagain.

in Christ
gerald
 
Major said:
Question King. Do you believe that believing in the Trinity is an essential to salvation?

I certainly do.
Click to expand...
Definitely agree. The Holy Spirit reveals Jesus as Lord to us when we are saved 1 Cor 12:3.

But many don't apply their mind to this fact. They know but they don't fully grasp it.

Though those who reject it show that so much further error accompanies such a belief as JW's have shown us.
 
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