Kingdom groups?

Aug 21, 2020
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Continuing the discussion based on my article at daffydd.simplesite.com and my earlier posts to the forum site. Discussing these matters is all very well, but can we now put the discussion into practice? At an individual level, living the Kingdom life is essential for the full Christian experience. That is to say, we should all aim t being "Galatians 2:20 Christians" i.e. we should be able to repeat Paul's words, not simply as a doctrinal statement, but as a description of our experience. But if all Christians were "Galatians 2:20 Christians", the entire Church would be of one Mind and one Will as there is only one Holy Spirit. Christians have the mighty & unique privilege of being indwelt by God in the Person of the Holy Spirit. God is indeed present everywhere and to all things, but "being present" & "indwelling" are not synonymous terms!
I believe that God moved me to write what I have written, but (of course), I am far from infallible. I would just humbly ask that those of my readers who are in a position to so do, gather small groups together to PRAYERFULLY discuss my article (with special emphasis on the account of the church council mentioned) discerning where correction might e needed and emphasis placed and how this can be put into practice, that these groups become "cells" of Kingdom activity - groups of "Gal.2:20 Christians" - moved by God as he wills.
Blessings,
Daffydd
 
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Amen, sounds very good but as you say it is the Holy Spirit that does the work and not a group effort at all but a body constructed by the Master Builder.
I agree that we must do our part but the church is not politically constructed, for politics and reason were the tools used to engineer the fall.
Perhaps I am reading too much into what you said.
God bless
 
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Continuing the discussion based on my article at daffydd.simplesite.com and my earlier posts to the forum site. Discussing these matters is all very well, but can we now put the discussion into practice? At an individual level, living the Kingdom life is essential for the full Christian experience. That is to say, we should all aim t being "Galatians 2:20 Christians" i.e. we should be able to repeat Paul's words, not simply as a doctrinal statement, but as a description of our experience. But if all Christians were "Galatians 2:20 Christians", the entire Church would be of one Mind and one Will as there is only one Holy Spirit. Christians have the mighty & unique privilege of being indwelt by God in the Person of the Holy Spirit. God is indeed present everywhere and to all things, but "being present" & "indwelling" are not synonymous terms!
I believe that God moved me to write what I have written, but (of course), I am far from infallible. I would just humbly ask that those of my readers who are in a position to so do, gather small groups together to PRAYERFULLY discuss my article (with special emphasis on the account of the church council mentioned) discerning where correction might e needed and emphasis placed and how this can be put into practice, that these groups become "cells" of Kingdom activity - groups of "Gal.2:20 Christians" - moved by God as he wills.
Blessings,
Daffydd

Well, one of the reasons that what you would like to see taking place can not take place is that the church is full of sinners. In fact, every single church member is a sinner.

I lot of people today talk about living the Crucified life but that is NOT what Paul is talking about in Galatians 2:20.

The fact is.....we are NOT to seek to be crucified with Christ. We are already crucified with Christ.!

The principle of living is not by the Law which has slain us because it has found us to be guility. NOW we are to live by faith. Faith in the Son of God the Lord Jesus Christ. You see my friend, the death of Christ on the cross was not just paying the penalty for our sins, but it was also substitutionary also. He was not only the sacrifice for sin....He was the "Substitute" for all who believe.

Paul is saying "I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I Live".

You see, the Law executed us. The Law did not give us life and was never intended to give us life.

Life came from the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus said.............
"I AM the Way the Truth and the Life and no one gets to the Father except by Me".

How then do we LIVE????............."I but Christ who liveth in me"!

That is the key to Christianity!!!!


Allowing Christ to live through us. HOW.........By faith!!

Your idea is a good one. I recommend it. Here is another reccomendation............find a church where the Pastor preaches the Word of God with NO apologies and join it, work in it and get people saved to the glory of God!
 
Aug 21, 2020
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Amen, sounds very good but as you say it is the Holy Spirit that does the work and not a group effort at all but a body constructed by the Master Builder.
I agree that we must do our part but the church is not politically constructed, for politics and reason were the tools used to engineer the fall.
Perhaps I am reading too much into what you said.
God bless
The time will come, I believe, when Jesus will rule through "Kingdom groups" or groups (from church councils to, eventually, "secular" governing bodies) that have been transformed into Kingdom groups as the percentage of Christians within the society increases and the message of Galatians 2:20 is increasingly lived by Christians. The church council mentioned in my article seems to have been one such "Kingdom transformed" group. The African Enterprise ministry is, by and large, another. Such groups will, I believe, increase in the years to come. God may bring in the Kingdom suddenly of course, but I suspect that it will be a gradual process and "the kingdoms of the world" will not become "the Kingdom of the Lord" (to quote the song!) for many years - probably centuries - to come.
 
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The time will come, I believe, when Jesus will rule through "Kingdom groups" or groups (from church councils to, eventually, "secular" governing bodies) that have been transformed into Kingdom groups as the percentage of Christians within the society increases and the message of Galatians 2:20 is increasingly lived by Christians. The church council mentioned in my article seems to have been one such "Kingdom transformed" group. The African Enterprise ministry is, by and large, another. Such groups will, I believe, increase in the years to come. God may bring in the Kingdom suddenly of course, but I suspect that it will be a gradual process and "the kingdoms of the world" will not become "the Kingdom of the Lord" (to quote the song!) for many years - probably centuries - to come.

I would say that what you are saying depends on what you are referring to as the Kingdom.

The central theme of the preaching from Jesus was the Kingdom of God. But what is meant by this phrase? What do you mean by the phrase???
Is the kingdom of God a physical place or a present spiritual reality? Who are the subjects of this kingdom? And does the kingdom of God exist now or only in the future?

According to the many Bible Scriptures on this The Kingdom of God is the realm where God reigns supreme, and Jesus Christ is King. It is a "Physical/Real kingdom. God’s authority will be recognized, and his will is obeyed. The concept of a Kingdom of God is not primarily one of space, territory, or politics, as in a national kingdom, but rather one of kingly rule, reign, and sovereign control.

Is that then what YOU are referring to?

If however you are saying that Christian groups/Kingdom theology churches will bring in the Kingdom of God and then turn it over to Christ to rule then that idea is NOT Scriptural.

The Bible tells us that …God’s present spiritual reign is over His people in Colossians 1:13...........
"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son".

However, Jesus’ future reign will be a physical one in the millennial kingdom as seen in Rev. 20.4-6..............
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The Kingdom of God actually exists here and now spiritually in the lives and hearts of the redeemed, but will exist Physically in perfection and fullness in the soon future.

That will happen when Jesus Comes the next time and rescues humanity from its own destruction and sets up His 1000 physical rule of His Kingdom.
 
Aug 21, 2020
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7
3
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Australia
I would say that what you are saying depends on what you are referring to as the Kingdom.

The central theme of the preaching from Jesus was the Kingdom of God. But what is meant by this phrase? What do you mean by the phrase???
Is the kingdom of God a physical place or a present spiritual reality? Who are the subjects of this kingdom? And does the kingdom of God exist now or only in the future?

According to the many Bible Scriptures on this The Kingdom of God is the realm where God reigns supreme, and Jesus Christ is King. It is a "Physical/Real kingdom. God’s authority will be recognized, and his will is obeyed. The concept of a Kingdom of God is not primarily one of space, territory, or politics, as in a national kingdom, but rather one of kingly rule, reign, and sovereign control.

Is that then what YOU are referring to?

If however you are saying that Christian groups/Kingdom theology churches will bring in the Kingdom of God and then turn it over to Christ to rule then that idea is NOT Scriptural.

The Bible tells us that …God’s present spiritual reign is over His people in Colossians 1:13...........
"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son".

However, Jesus’ future reign will be a physical one in the millennial kingdom as seen in Rev. 20.4-6..............
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The Kingdom of God actually exists here and now spiritually in the lives and hearts of the redeemed, but will exist Physically in perfection and fullness in the soon future.

That will happen when Jesus Comes the next time and rescues humanity from its own destruction and sets up His 1000 physical rule of His Kingdom.

Essentially, by "Kingdom of God" I mean "Kingship of God" i.e. the rule of God; the state of affairs when the will of the Father will be done "on earth as in heaven". It is not a place but a condition of existence or spiritual state and began with the Incarnation. My concept is rather similar to the Puritan interpretation, viz. that through the Church, God will bring all government and authority on earth under his authority (which is another way of saying, into his Kingdom). Christ rules NOW as the head of his church. The church (in the sense of the company of Christians, not in the sense of an organization) is his body in which each member is indwelt by his Spirit. If each member (and the church as a whole) is surrendered to his indwelling Spirit, then Christ can rule through his body and the Kingdom (the rule of God) can grow and spread throughout the world. If most Christians are not responsive to the indwelling Spirit, the Kingdom cannot grow as God desires.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Essentially, by "Kingdom of God" I mean "Kingship of God" i.e. the rule of God; the state of affairs when the will of the Father will be done "on earth as in heaven". It is not a place but a condition of existence or spiritual state and began with the Incarnation. My concept is rather similar to the Puritan interpretation, viz. that through the Church, God will bring all government and authority on earth under his authority (which is another way of saying, into his Kingdom). Christ rules NOW as the head of his church. The church (in the sense of the company of Christians, not in the sense of an organization) is his body in which each member is indwelt by his Spirit. If each member (and the church as a whole) is surrendered to his indwelling Spirit, then Christ can rule through his body and the Kingdom (the rule of God) can grow and spread throughout the world. If most Christians are not responsive to the indwelling Spirit, the Kingdom cannot grow as God desires.

You are of course free to believe as you choose to do so. I believe that what you are promoting is a theological belief within the Charismatic movement of Protestant Christianity.

What you have described is essentially is the belief that, since believers are indwelt by the same Holy Spirit that indwelt Jesus, we have all authority in heaven and on the earth; we have the power to believe for and speak into existence things that are not, and thus we can bring about the Kingdom Age.

You can correct me if you do not adhere to these teachings, but the thrust of this belief include the idea that, as the Body of Christ, we are Christ. In other words, we have His divine nature. Also among the beliefs is the idea that all prophecies regarding future Israel—both in the Old and New Testaments—actually apply to the church instead of Israel.

I for one can not accept those opinions as they are simply not Biblical. God has not lost control of anything so as to cause the Christians or the church to rescue God's Creation. God has been and always will be in control of ALL things.

We do not have the ability to speak anything into existence as we do not have divine power.
If you recall, the original lie of Satan to Eve in Genesis 3:5 was “you shall be as God”.

Now when we consider the idea that the Church and Christians will take over the world and then turn it over to God, we see very quickly that the Bible teaches us just the opposite.

2 Timothy 3:13..............
"while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived."

Matt. 24:12....................
"And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold."

Matt. 24: 37..................
"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man".

What was it like in the days of Noah?

Genesis 6:5................
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

The church TODAY in the USA could not stop or effect the killing of unborn babies.
The church TODAY in the USA could not stop or effect homosexual marriages.

I submit that the world will grow worse and worse and then it will be Jesus who comes to the rescue of His Creation and then HE will allow the believers to rule it with Him during His Kingdom Rule of 1000 years after Armageddon.

Rev. 20:4...................
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

 
Aug 21, 2020
18
7
3
73
Australia
You are of course free to believe as you choose to do so. I believe that what you are promoting is a theological belief within the Charismatic movement of Protestant Christianity.

What you have described is essentially is the belief that, since believers are indwelt by the same Holy Spirit that indwelt Jesus, we have all authority in heaven and on the earth; we have the power to believe for and speak into existence things that are not, and thus we can bring about the Kingdom Age.

You can correct me if you do not adhere to these teachings, but the thrust of this belief include the idea that, as the Body of Christ, we are Christ. In other words, we have His divine nature. Also among the beliefs is the idea that all prophecies regarding future Israel—both in the Old and New Testaments—actually apply to the church instead of Israel.

I for one can not accept those opinions as they are simply not Biblical. God has not lost control of anything so as to cause the Christians or the church to rescue God's Creation. God has been and always will be in control of ALL things.

We do not have the ability to speak anything into existence as we do not have divine power.
If you recall, the original lie of Satan to Eve in Genesis 3:5 was “you shall be as God”.

Now when we consider the idea that the Church and Christians will take over the world and then turn it over to God, we see very quickly that the Bible teaches us just the opposite.

2 Timothy 3:13..............
"while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived."

Matt. 24:12....................
"And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold."

Matt. 24: 37..................
"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man".

What was it like in the days of Noah?

Genesis 6:5................
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

The church TODAY in the USA could not stop or effect the killing of unborn babies.
The church TODAY in the USA could not stop or effect homosexual marriages.

I submit that the world will grow worse and worse and then it will be Jesus who comes to the rescue of His Creation and then HE will allow the believers to rule it with Him during His Kingdom Rule of 1000 years after Armageddon.

Rev. 20:4...................
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
No, I don't accept the "call into existence" idea, neither do I hold that OT prophecies refer to the Church rather than Israel, although some at least do have a further application to the Church.
There are a number of different interpretations about the "last days" and one school of thought sees the quotes that you give as applying to the end of the Temple age, which came to a close in AD70. Some who take this approach understand Armageddon to have already taken place in the dreadful events of the Jewish War, whereas others see it in symbolic terms (in agreement with the other symbols of Revelation) as being the conversion of the nations - Christ slaying all opposition with the Sword of the Word proceeding from his mouth. To go further into this would take us too far into doctrinal matters and would probably cause too much debate and argument, which is something that I would rather avoid. If we can't agree on this, let us leave it here and praise God that we agree that Jesus is our Savior and Lord. Amen!
 

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Continuing the discussion based on my article at daffydd.simplesite.com and my earlier posts to the forum site. Discussing these matters is all very well, but can we now put the discussion into practice? At an individual level, living the Kingdom life is essential for the full Christian experience. That is to say, we should all aim t being "Galatians 2:20 Christians" i.e. we should be able to repeat Paul's words, not simply as a doctrinal statement, but as a description of our experience. But if all Christians were "Galatians 2:20 Christians", the entire Church would be of one Mind and one Will as there is only one Holy Spirit. Christians have the mighty & unique privilege of being indwelt by God in the Person of the Holy Spirit. God is indeed present everywhere and to all things, but "being present" & "indwelling" are not synonymous terms!
I believe that God moved me to write what I have written, but (of course), I am far from infallible. I would just humbly ask that those of my readers who are in a position to so do, gather small groups together to PRAYERFULLY discuss my article (with special emphasis on the account of the church council mentioned) discerning where correction might e needed and emphasis placed and how this can be put into practice, that these groups become "cells" of Kingdom activity - groups of "Gal.2:20 Christians" - moved by God as he wills.
Blessings,
Daffydd
No, I don't accept the "call into existence" idea, neither do I hold that OT prophecies refer to the Church rather than Israel, although some at least do have a further application to the Church.
There are a number of different interpretations about the "last days" and one school of thought sees the quotes that you give as applying to the end of the Temple age, which came to a close in AD70. Some who take this approach understand Armageddon to have already taken place in the dreadful events of the Jewish War, whereas others see it in symbolic terms (in agreement with the other symbols of Revelation) as being the conversion of the nations - Christ slaying all opposition with the Sword of the Word proceeding from his mouth. To go further into this would take us too far into doctrinal matters and would probably cause too much debate and argument, which is something that I would rather avoid. If we can't agree on this, let us leave it here and praise God that we agree that Jesus is our Savior and Lord. Amen!
Hello Daffydd;

I read your intro and last posts carefully and, not how I would respond, but how the Holy Spirit prompts me what to write (say.)

I feel Galatians 2:20 is the Word given in your thread as a guide to our daily walk with Christ and to "Group" is a healthy way of increased faith and serving. Your firmly held belief (which I support for all who point us to Jesus) moved you to encourage everyone to group together, pray and discuss the Word God gave you.

The discussion of these matters should take place which is part of serving as a disciple. But matters vary, from the Christian community to cultural communities and across the miles.

Please elaborate more, Daffydd, and summarize, what "matters" do you want to share within your intro to "Kingdom Groups?" Tell us more.

I also serve, and when I witness "putting the discussion into practice and the "matters" are actually taking place today in my Christian community.

Pastor Mayende, who is working very hard with his church plant in Uganda surrounded by opposition, and Pastor Jagan Mohan, who's church family in India is surrounded by other religions and persecuted daily, both are members of Christian Forum Site, and many more.

I can assure that their "all in all" in serving Christ is a result of being crucified with Christ. Had they remained in their old self there would be no progress (God's progress) where their church families and ministry are today. There would be no room to discuss Biblical matters.

Staying within the verb of Galatians 2:20 and what you stated, "I am far from infallible", also applies in this passage, meaning, we're going to make mistakes, therefore we must fight sin daily. The Good News of Galatians 2:20 is we are one in Christ as He is with us, He will embrace us as we die daily (liberated from sin replaced by obedience) for Him. We are no longer condemned.

Sad, but there are alot of professed Christians who may not be putting into practice the application of Scriptures for the Kingdom, who may not be getting the right teaching from their Shepherd, who cannot grasp understanding of the Bible as well as others, or show confusion over the doctrine of Theology / Christology.

I understand how your last post may not be within the main topic of the "Kingdom Groups." I may have missed alot of detail in between. This is where I am asking you to explain further.

As far as "unhealthy" debate and disagreement that you and I must avoid, then lets discuss this and look at it as an opportunity for learning, Daffydd.

Thank you for sharing this topic, brother.

May God bless you and your family.
 
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No, I don't accept the "call into existence" idea, neither do I hold that OT prophecies refer to the Church rather than Israel, although some at least do have a further application to the Church.
There are a number of different interpretations about the "last days" and one school of thought sees the quotes that you give as applying to the end of the Temple age, which came to a close in AD70. Some who take this approach understand Armageddon to have already taken place in the dreadful events of the Jewish War, whereas others see it in symbolic terms (in agreement with the other symbols of Revelation) as being the conversion of the nations - Christ slaying all opposition with the Sword of the Word proceeding from his mouth. To go further into this would take us too far into doctrinal matters and would probably cause too much debate and argument, which is something that I would rather avoid. If we can't agree on this, let us leave it here and praise God that we agree that Jesus is our Savior and Lord. Amen!

I am glad that you do not hold to those un-Biblical teachings.

What you are describing is the "Preterist" position and it is not Biblical IMHO. You see, If Armageddon had taken place in 70 AD then we would be in the New Jerusalem right now and there would be no sin, no suffering, no pain and no death. Reality out my front door does not confirm that teaching, but that is just my observation.

IT seems to me that your comment is quite correct in that further discussion into literal Bible teaching would certainly cause an argument and this particular web site just does not want that to happen.

Yes, Jesus Christ is not only the Saviour of all humanity, He is also the Creator of ALL things and is certainly worthy of our praise and worship.
 
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Hello Daffydd;

I read your intro and last posts carefully and, not how I would respond, but how the Holy Spirit prompts me what to write (say.)

I feel Galatians 2:20 is the Word given in your thread as a guide to our daily walk with Christ and to "Group" is a healthy way of increased faith and serving. Your firmly held belief (which I support for all who point us to Jesus) moved you to encourage everyone to group together, pray and discuss the Word God gave you.

The discussion of these matters should take place which is part of serving as a disciple. But matters vary, from the Christian community to cultural communities and across the miles.

Please elaborate more, Daffydd, and summarize, what "matters" do you want to share within your intro to "Kingdom Groups?" Tell us more.

I also serve, and when I witness "putting the discussion into practice and the "matters" are actually taking place today in my Christian community.

Pastor Mayende, who is working very hard with his church plant in Uganda surrounded by opposition, and Pastor Jagan Mohan, who's church family in India is surrounded by other religions and persecuted daily, both are members of Christian Forum Site, and many more.

I can assure that their "all in all" in serving Christ is a result of being crucified with Christ. Had they remained in their old self there would be no progress (God's progress) where their church families and ministry are today. There would be no room to discuss Biblical matters.

Staying within the verb of Galatians 2:20 and what you stated, "I am far from infallible", also applies in this passage, meaning, we're going to make mistakes, therefore we must fight sin daily. The Good News of Galatians 2:20 is we are one in Christ as He is with us, He will embrace us as we die daily (liberated from sin replaced by obedience) for Him. We are no longer condemned.

Sad, but there are alot of professed Christians who may not be putting into practice the application of Scriptures for the Kingdom, who may not be getting the right teaching from their Shepherd, who cannot grasp understanding of the Bible as well as others, or show confusion over the doctrine of Theology / Christology.

I understand how your last post may not be within the main topic of the "Kingdom Groups." I may have missed alot of detail in between. This is where I am asking you to explain further.

As far as "unhealthy" debate and disagreement that you and I must avoid, then lets discuss this and look at it as an opportunity for learning, Daffydd.

Thank you for sharing this topic, brother.

May God bless you and your family.
You are right in saying that "matters" differ within different cultural contexts. My vision for Kingdom groups is necessarily vague as placing any "agendas" on them would restrict the free action of the Holy Spirit and thereby counteract their very purpose. However, in saying that, I would think that a group could begin with a discussion of the approach taken by the church council that I mentioned in the original article. That would "set the tone" so to speak. What comes across to me in that account is that each member of that council did not act from his/her own self, but from the Christ who dwells in each through the Holy Spirit. I agree with Norman Grubb that God created us to be "vessels" of Christ; not to act from our own self-center but to be filled with Christ's presence as a tumbler is filled with liquid (when we look at a clear glass tumbler, we first notice the liquid contents and not the vessel). The Fall was primarily a choosing to be filled with self (to "be as gods") rather than to be filled with Christ. Sanctification is the reverse of this. The church council, by surrendering to God's will opened itself (by each member opening himself/herself) to be filled with Christ. That is the only "essential matter" for a Kingdom group, or indeed for each Christian who seeks the Kingdom life. Once this is clear, God will guide a group and its members into whatever other matters are relevant to that group. I envision that eventually Christian business enterprises will have their board meetings run along the lines of Kingdom groups. Christ will be their "Managing Director" in effect. At some future time, governments will, I believe, be "Kingdom groups". Then Christ will truly rule the world. I know that this is controversial (it is a form of Preterist doctrine) so it is best not discussed here as such issues tend to raise more heat than light. But if it is true, God will guide us to it. If not, something else will come to pass.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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You are right in saying that "matters" differ within different cultural contexts. My vision for Kingdom groups is necessarily vague as placing any "agendas" on them would restrict the free action of the Holy Spirit and thereby counteract their very purpose. However, in saying that, I would think that a group could begin with a discussion of the approach taken by the church council that I mentioned in the original article. That would "set the tone" so to speak. What comes across to me in that account is that each member of that council did not act from his/her own self, but from the Christ who dwells in each through the Holy Spirit. I agree with Norman Grubb that God created us to be "vessels" of Christ; not to act from our own self-center but to be filled with Christ's presence as a tumbler is filled with liquid (when we look at a clear glass tumbler, we first notice the liquid contents and not the vessel). The Fall was primarily a choosing to be filled with self (to "be as gods") rather than to be filled with Christ. Sanctification is the reverse of this. The church council, by surrendering to God's will opened itself (by each member opening himself/herself) to be filled with Christ. That is the only "essential matter" for a Kingdom group, or indeed for each Christian who seeks the Kingdom life. Once this is clear, God will guide a group and its members into whatever other matters are relevant to that group. I envision that eventually Christian business enterprises will have their board meetings run along the lines of Kingdom groups. Christ will be their "Managing Director" in effect. At some future time, governments will, I believe, be "Kingdom groups". Then Christ will truly rule the world. I know that this is controversial (it is a form of Preterist doctrine) so it is best not discussed here as such issues tend to raise more heat than light. But if it is true, God will guide us to it. If not, something else will come to pass.

I pride myself on being able to grasp the ideas of others and what it is that they are trying to say.

But when I read your posts, I have to say that I am very confused and I personally have no idea what you are trying to get across to us.

May I say to you in all due respect, the Bible does not tell us that there will be "Kingdom GROUPS" and Christ will be their managing Director (Your Words),

Jesus Christ WILL BE ruling the world, that is for sure.

Rev. 20: 2-4.........
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. "

Christ will be the King of Kings and everything will be decided by HIM and not a "Group" of people.


And as I stated in a previous post, YES, what you are proposing is a form of Preterism. Preterism is the eschatological view that the “end times” prophecies of the Bible have already been fulfilled which you have already proposed. So, when we read what the Bible says about the tribulation, we are reading history. Preterism is divided into two camps: full (or consistent) preterism and partial preterism.

It is hard for me to determine what you are as you seem to be working to be deliberately vague.

Now may I also say to you with Christian love and respect, No one denies that Revelation contains amazing and sometimes confusing visions. No one denies that Revelation describes many things figuratively—that’s the nature of apocalyptic literature. However, to arbitrarily deny the literal nature of select portions of Revelation is to destroy the basis of interpreting any of the book literally. If the plagues, witnesses, beast, false prophet, millennial kingdom, etc., are all allegorical, then on what basis do we claim that the second coming of Christ and the new earth are literal?
That is the failure of preterism—it leaves the interpretation of Revelation to the opinions of the interpreter.