lying, when is it ok?
- Thread starter Peki
- Start date
Good results is subjective. Can you share the example?
As with all sin there is degrees of it / a heart of intent behind the action.
0/10 = A lie for a surprise party.
0/10 = Telling your wife she is thin when she is not.
2/10 = Telling your boss you are sick when you are not.
9/10 = Lying about a mortal sin. Like being in adultery and lying to your spouse.
10/10 = Your lie results in someone paying for your mortal sin. You murdered and someone else goes to prison because of your lie.
The first two require no repentance. You just need to watch for a bad habit. The 2/10 requires repentance. The last two require immediate sincere repentance / fixing of the situation, as an eternity in hell is on the horizon.
Judging sins / wrongs like this is what I read Paul encouraging us to do amoung ourselves in 1 Cor 6:1-8.Vs 3 for example says 'Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?' Then we also have 1 Cor 11:31 'But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment'.
As with all sin there is degrees of it / a heart of intent behind the action.
0/10 = A lie for a surprise party.
0/10 = Telling your wife she is thin when she is not.
2/10 = Telling your boss you are sick when you are not.
9/10 = Lying about a mortal sin. Like being in adultery and lying to your spouse.
10/10 = Your lie results in someone paying for your mortal sin. You murdered and someone else goes to prison because of your lie.
The first two require no repentance. You just need to watch for a bad habit. The 2/10 requires repentance. The last two require immediate sincere repentance / fixing of the situation, as an eternity in hell is on the horizon.
Judging sins / wrongs like this is what I read Paul encouraging us to do amoung ourselves in 1 Cor 6:1-8.Vs 3 for example says 'Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?' Then we also have 1 Cor 11:31 'But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment'.
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This is an ethical issue that has a long history of unresolved debates.
The only time I see a lie/deception is possible is to deceive what is already deceived. For instance, lying to an evil (deceived) person to protect the truth / innocent.
A classic ethical example is a true case of WWII when the Nazis were looking for missing Jewish children to be exterminated. The children were taken in and hidden by nuns at a convent. When the Nazi leader asked the nun if Jewish children were in the convent, the nun said 'No". The Nazi's believed her and left.
Here the Nazi's intentions were evil. The nun's deception was pointed at what was already a deception/evil. IMHO
Easy answer: Would God lie? once you know that, you'll have your answer. Here's a hint, Titus 1:2.
EXACTLY!!!!! We are to be Christlike and Christ never lied.
John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and stayed not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace to the hearers.
Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his deeds;
Excellent example.
This is one that will go around in circles I think.
I believe it is never okay to tell a lie, no matter the circumstances. There are ways to answer a question while still protecting people (in the Jew case) while still not lying.
We are called to be Christlike, and I do not see an example of Him lying to anyone, regardless of circumstances.
I believe it is never okay to tell a lie, no matter the circumstances. There are ways to answer a question while still protecting people (in the Jew case) while still not lying.
We are called to be Christlike, and I do not see an example of Him lying to anyone, regardless of circumstances.
In the example with the Jews. Silence would be on par with giving them up. Only a lie would save them.
What would Jesus have done? Well He could call down a legion of angels to protect them. He could take the life from the German soldiers. Or He could comfort the Jews in their death. We are not Jesus. We strive to be like Him. This entails us choosing the lessor of two evils in the event a legion of angels from heaven do not come.
Hence, I see no circle
. I think this is pretty clear cut. Save a Jew = good Christian. Give a Jew up = bad Christian. Keep silent = they search house further = dumb and bad Christian.
A lie is a lie. That is the simple truth. God's standards are not based on circumstances. I always wondered if I am lying when I am trying to get things done by my kids. I often say "eat properly and then you get so and so". Which she would never get. It is a lie! Is it got a good thing? Yes, make her eat properly or give her good habits. But it might have a negative impact. She might think dad always makes up things (or lies!).
Praise the Lord for God's grace and mercy! God does not judge us based on our actions. God looks at the motive behind our actions. It does not make what we did right. But it allows God's grace to play in favor of our forgiveness. In my opinion, these are things which we don't repent explicitly. But when we ask Lord to forgive any word spoken or actions done against His will to be forgiven, He forgives all these small things. Because He looks at the depth of the heart. He knows whether we are doing something completely outright against Him or doing something with good intentions but still in disobedience.
Praise the Lord for God's grace and mercy! God does not judge us based on our actions. God looks at the motive behind our actions. It does not make what we did right. But it allows God's grace to play in favor of our forgiveness. In my opinion, these are things which we don't repent explicitly. But when we ask Lord to forgive any word spoken or actions done against His will to be forgiven, He forgives all these small things. Because He looks at the depth of the heart. He knows whether we are doing something completely outright against Him or doing something with good intentions but still in disobedience.
All lying brings condemnation no matter what the circumstances may be. If we do evil (lie) so that good may come out of it, our condemnation is just for doing so.
Rom 3:7.. But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
Rom 3:8.. And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.
Rom 3:7.. But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
Rom 3:8.. And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.
Interesting topic, interesting story, that pops up from time to time.....
have some new perspective, that adheres to the Truth, am serious here, am not trying to "work around" ...... it is the Truth we are talking about here....
Judgment, what is righteous to do...
TRUTH : Man, children HAVE RIGHT to live…or only God can take human life.....
LIE: Untruth: Man, children HAVE NO right to live
The Nazi during WWII: Where are those children that we might kill them : that is: where are those children that HAVE NO right to live that we might kill them....
The nuns at the convent: I have no idea where are those children... that is: we have no idea where are those children that HAVE NO right to live.....
....... (because what we hide here are children, in fact, all children HAVE right to live)
Just a thought…..
have some new perspective, that adheres to the Truth, am serious here, am not trying to "work around" ...... it is the Truth we are talking about here....
Judgment, what is righteous to do...
TRUTH : Man, children HAVE RIGHT to live…or only God can take human life.....
LIE: Untruth: Man, children HAVE NO right to live
The Nazi during WWII: Where are those children that we might kill them : that is: where are those children that HAVE NO right to live that we might kill them....
The nuns at the convent: I have no idea where are those children... that is: we have no idea where are those children that HAVE NO right to live.....
....... (because what we hide here are children, in fact, all children HAVE right to live)
Just a thought…..
We are never suppose to decide what we would say or do in difficult times because we do not know all the circumstances of every situation, in fact the scripture says that is evil because we would be boasting of what we would do or say. Jesus tells us what to do if you ever find yourself in these kinds of situations.
Luke 21:12.. But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake.
Luke 21:13.. This will be your opportunity to bear witness.
Luke 21:14.. Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer,
Luke 21:15.. for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict.
Ah yeah, thanks for the reminder, I might committed injustice to what the nuns actually said, or what really transpired..
Yes indeed the underline, as well as the red font: it is an opportunity to bear witness...
Interesting to see some of the lies that are captured in Bible
Abraham calling Sarah as sister
Isaac calling Rebekah as sister
Rebekah/Jacob deceiving Isaac to get blessings of first born.
The famous lie by Rahab to save the lives of spies
All these ended up with favorable outcome. God did not strike down the people who told the lies. But all were with right intentions. May be God honored the intentions rather than lie? While lie is never the right thing, God will honor the intention? Like CCW quoted, we cannot say what we would say or do in such difficult situations
Abraham calling Sarah as sister
Isaac calling Rebekah as sister
Rebekah/Jacob deceiving Isaac to get blessings of first born.
The famous lie by Rahab to save the lives of spies
All these ended up with favorable outcome. God did not strike down the people who told the lies. But all were with right intentions. May be God honored the intentions rather than lie? While lie is never the right thing, God will honor the intention? Like CCW quoted, we cannot say what we would say or do in such difficult situations
I agree..........but there is always that time when your wife asks you........"Does this dress make me look fat?"
Matter of life or death! LOL!!
The answer to that question is ,"not to me honey, just to everybody else". Remember, we are not to look at the things seen, but at the things not seen!!
And that's a more dangerous place than being a jew in ww2
Her answer should have been more accurate and then she wouldn't have had to lie: "There are no guilty children here." or "There are not dogs here." Both are accurate without lying. Her definition of guilt and dogs would have been interpreted by the Nazi as being Jewish where her definition is "innocence is here, not your interpretation of evil children." Many use this circular argument because they lack the ability to artfully communicate. Jesus, in your scenario, would never have lied, so why should we? It is never right to do wrong to do right. Especially as children of God, 1 Cor 10:13; Luke 12:11-12.
My answer, as I pack my bags for the dog house is, "Don't ask a question, you don't want an answer to."
Or "ask me no questions, I tell you no lies."