Marilyn Manson

[Flavio]

Here's an artist that is always popular among Christians: Marilyn Manson.

His latest video is full of religious references and it is, once again, very controversial. MM plays the role of a preacher in what seems to be either a baptism or a ritual sacrifice. As usual, a woman ends up dead (feminists are going to love it, too).

I have nothing against MM, I think he's talented and intelligent - even though he misuses the great gifts God had blessed him with. I think we should pray for him, not hate him.

Moreover, I am a firm believer in freedom of speech and I have nothing against humor and parody. Blasphemy is, however, a whole different matter and a line has to be drawn somewhere.

MM knows his limits and most of the time he is not offensive but he does cross the line sometimes, e.g. tearing off the pages of a Bible in one of his concerts is intolerable.

Here's another example: in one of the most controversial scenes of Stanley Kubrick's The Clockwork Orange, the protagonist is seen whipping Jesus Christ. When I first saw the movie many years ago, the scene left me indifferent (I was an atheist back then) but today I can't stand to watch it.

And another one: in Lars von Trier's Nymphomaniac, some scenes remind us of the Marian apparitions but the reference is very ambiguous and not gratuitous at all. I didn't like the movie but that sequence in particular was not offensive.

So, this is not just about MM, the real question is: how do you reconcile Christianity and freedom of speech? Should we ban controversial art works?

 

[Cturtle]

I think the biggest thing is to seek God and pray for what to do. Because if one just goes out and protests and stirs up strife....then the Word of God cannot be received.

Blessings

 

[Flavio]

I think the biggest thing is to seek God and pray for what to do. Because if one just goes out and protests and stirs up strife....then the Word of God cannot be received.

Blessings

Thanks Cturtle.

Jesus Christ is my #1 priority in life and I don't want any of MM's CDs or the latest Lars von Trier DVD anywhere near my personal library. I know perfectly well where my heart is, I know that the road is narrow and you have to renounce many things if you want Christ (like I most certainly do).

The real question is how should society deal with these artists. Should un-Christian art be allowed in a Christian society? I don't have an answer for that.

 

[Abdicate]

Love covers a multitude of sins. Don't support them, speak the truth, pay for them, and wait on the Holy Spirit to move you amd them. P.S. I haven't a clue who you're talking about, but it sounds like something I'd detest.

 

[Abdicate]

Also the titles sound like something no Christian should even be aware of let alone view/listen to.

Phi 4:8 KJV Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

 

[aha]

and I don't want any of MM's CDs or the latest Lars von Trier DVD anywhere near my personal library.

"having one or owning one" is not the point....
I would compare it to one "watching" a witch do their thing.... will that edify?

The real question is how should society deal with these artists. Should un-Christian art be allowed in a Christian society

Reading the Bible, such as Letters of St. Paul's we can learn/it covers a lot of principle regarding Freedom, Liberty.... and practical applications.....




1 Corinthians 5:12-13New King James Version (NKJV)
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”a]'>[a]




1 Peter 2:11-12King James Version (KJV)
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.




Philippians 4:8New King James Version (NKJV)
8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.

 

[aha]

For one, if we meditate on the concept of “outside” as mentioned by St. Paul….

A law of a Government/country covers only its citizens, it does not cover citizens of other country, that is: “outside” its area of responsibility, of jurisdiction…

Now: it was mentioned: “Christian society” … “society” is different from “government”….

Society cannot enforce: say “ban” something…only a “government” with its power can “ban”…

 

[Flavio]

"having one or owning one" is not the point....
I would compare it to one "watching" a witch do their thing.... will that edify?

Yes, you're absolutely right but things aren't always black and white.

MM is an extreme example and he's openly anti-Christian - maybe he doesn't real mean it and that's all just part of the act but it's definitely the message he conveys.

Porn is another obvious case of anti-God media, it's not even art.

But what about less obvious cases, such as horror movies? What's so wrong about them?

Many Christian preachers and mystics warn us against horror movies and say they are demonic and you actually hurt your soul when you go see them.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately because I used to be a huge cinephile and watched everything. I watched all genres and types of movies and was especially fond of horror movies. A few weeks ago, however, I went to see Insidious 3 and the whole experience was extremely disturbing - and not for the right reasons. Throughout the whole session, I had the clear feeling that I was doing something wrong and sinful.

 

[Euphemia]

MM knows his limits and most of the time he is not offensive but he does cross the line sometimes, e.g. tearing off the pages of a Bible in one of his concerts is intolerable.

Most of the time this fellow is offensive.

So, this is not just about MM, the real question is: how do you reconcile Christianity and freedom of speech? Should we ban controversial art works?

That we have freedom of speech, as Christians we are compelled to speak the truth in love. The only controversy we should be embroiled in should center of the truth of the gospel, which the world abhors but is in the greatest need of.

 

[Euphemia]

The real question is how should society deal with these artists. Should un-Christian art be allowed in a Christian society? I don't have an answer for that.

What Christian society? Where is that?

 

[aha]

but things aren't always black and white.

I think the question is black and white: will those things edify or not?

IMO: Freedom remains a freedom even if we choose not to exercise it… what is then a good reason not to exercise it: a better choice.

 

[Cturtle]

Yes, you're absolutely right but things aren't always black and white.

MM is an extreme example and he's openly anti-Christian - maybe he doesn't real mean it and that's all just part of the act but it's definitely the message he conveys.

Porn is another obvious case of anti-God media, it's not even art.

But what about less obvious cases, such as horror movies? What's so wrong about them?

Many Christian preachers and mystics warn us against horror movies and say they are demonic and you actually hurt your soul when you go see them.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately because I used to be a huge cinephile and watched everything. I watched all genres and types of movies and was especially fond of horror movies. A few weeks ago, however, I went to see Insidious 3 and the whole experience was extremely disturbing - and not for the right reasons. Throughout the whole session, I had the clear feeling that I was doing something wrong and sinful.

That is because the Holy Spirit is tugging at you. Horror movies are all about fear and death, which is contrary to God's Character. One who allows their mind to be subjected to those things, has a more difficult time in discerning right and wrong (over time), because they havenallowed themselves to be desensitized or ignored the Holy Spirit's leading. It's all a trick from the devil to trip up and trap those who fill their minds with it. The Bible says to renew your mind with the Word (Romans 12:2), and it transforms the attitudes or actions of the person. Well the devil knows that is God's ways, so he brought about bad things to distract one from meditating on the good stuff of Philippians 4:8. It appeals to a person's senses and they don't realize how it affects their mind, and receiving the things of God.

In my opinion the Christian community should stay far away from all things that don't edify the Spirit, or embrace Philippians 4:8. As far as society is concerned....just pray for God to get laborers across their path and bind the strongman off their mind, so that they may receive the Word of God when it is brought to them or crosses their path. Honestly that is all we can do. Its up to God to do the rest, and if He happens to send you to speak to them...then be loving and gentle in your approach and oray for the Holy Spirit to guide your words.

Blessings

 

[Cturtle]

For one, if we meditate on the concept of “outside” as mentioned by St. Paul….

A law of a Government/country covers only its citizens, it does not cover citizens of other country, that is: “outside” its area of responsibility, of jurisdiction…

Now: it was mentioned: “Christian society” … “society” is different from “government”….

Society cannot enforce: say “ban” something…only a “government” with its power can “ban”…

Unless it is a community who has gotten together and decided that they don't want this kind of stuff in their town. Then as you said the government of that town can make the rules or what have you if need be. It may just be an unspoken agreement among the members of the community.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Thanks Cturtle.

Jesus Christ is my #1 priority in life and I don't want any of MM's CDs or the latest Lars von Trier DVD anywhere near my personal library. I know perfectly well where my heart is, I know that the road is narrow and you have to renounce many things if you want Christ (like I most certainly do).

The real question is how should society deal with these artists. Should un-Christian art be allowed in a Christian society? I don't have an answer for that.

Flavio said
The real question is how should society deal with these artists. Should un-Christian art be allowed in a Christian society? I don't have an answer for that.

We love them as God Loves them and we pray for them as God has entrusted us to pray for them and we forgive them BUT we do not have to buy or listen to their stuff or allow it in our homes or lives or church etc., especially when it is oposed to Gods ways but I have pictures in my home and on my tab that were created by "non christians........for now that is" They will surrender to God" Nothing wrong with Good art. lol
God Bless
Jim

 

[Grant Melville]

The real question is how should society deal with these artists. Should un-Christian art be allowed in a Christian society? I don't have an answer for that.

The general principle for us is 2 Corinthians 6, isn't it?

"Be not diversely yoked with unbelievers; for what participation is there between righteousness and lawlessness? or what fellowship of light with darkness? and what consent of Christ with Beliar, or what part for a believer along with an unbeliever? and what agreement of God's temple with idols? for ye are the living God's temple; according as God has said, I will dwell among them, and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be to me a people. Wherefore come out from the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and touch not what is unclean, and I will receive you; and I will be to you for a Father, and ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." - 2 Corinthians 6:14-18

Secular society will accept and tolerate all kinds of evil things. It does so because it has no conscience about them, or no power to suppress them. Laws can be put in place, but people who don't respect the law simply continue to do what they want to do. We are necessarily in societies, surrounded by the world. Peter, in his first epistle, passes on to the brethren the salutation of a sister (or perhaps the assembly): "She that is elected with you in Babylon salutes you..." (1 Peter 5:13) (and it's understood by some that he's referring to Rome as "Babylon"). It's a hostile environment, speaking to the Jews of their foreign captivity. We, as believers, are in Babylon, surrounded by godlessness and iniquity. 2 Corinthians 6 and 2 Timothy 2 give us the basis for withdrawing and separating ourselves from iniquity, separating ourselves to God - which is the great positive end in view.

 

[Flavio]

The general principle for us is ; isn't it?

"Be not diversely yoked with unbelievers; for what participation is there between righteousness and lawlessness? or what fellowship of light with darkness? and what consent of Christ with Beliar, or what part for a believer along with an unbeliever? and what agreement of God's temple with idols? for ye are the living God's temple; according as God has said, I will dwell among them, and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be to me a people. Wherefore come out from the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and touch not what is unclean, and I will receive you; and I will be to you for a Father, and ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." -

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Amen!