Matthew 11:12 Help

[Mark_18]

Matthew 11:12 - And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

What does this really mean. The way I heard it taught before was that this is God's people taking heaven by force and is a good thing. But I'm reading in some places that it's a bad thing, like it's being raided by unglodly men or something... Which is it?

 

[Julian of York]

Thank you for your thought provoking question!
I trust you are aware of the teaching of Christ in Matthew chapter 13? I suggest you look at that chapter,in either the KJV or ESV, and notice that the Kingdom of Heaven is taught by Christ to consist of the True Converts and False Converts. Thus you see examples, like of the fisherman that is like the KIngdom of Heaven.He casts out his nets and gathers many fish; some turn out to be bad and are thrown away,some are good and kept. Also mentioned in this teaching is the Sower that sowed good seed. When it sprouted, the farmer's workers noticed that some of the seed grew up to be good wheat,while some of it was "weeds". The workers asked the farmer if they should pull up the "weeds", but he said no,let them grow together until the harvest,when they will be seperated,some to burn,and some to be gathered in. This is also a teaching of the Kingdom of Heaven.
When you see "Kingdom of Heaven" in the Bible, as far as I am able to understand, it ALWAYS refers to "Christianity", those who could be True Christians or False Christians. All Greek Orthodox belong to the Kingdom of Heaven.All Catholics belong to the Kingdom of Heaven. All Mormons belong to the Kingdom of Heaven. All Jehovah's Witnesses,Baptists, etc etc. Are they indeed Christians or are they deceived?
Therefore, when the Bible says that the violent have been taking the Kingdom of Heaven by force, I am reminded of the Crusades. Many "Christians" sought to work for the Kingdom of Heaven by forcing Jews,Muslims, and pagans to become "converted" at the tip of a sword or suffer instant death. This is the violent taking the Kingdom by force.Also,think of Cortez in Mexioco, El Cid in Spain amongst the Moors, the Teutonic Knights against the pagan Poles, and you have the idea of taking the Kingdom by force,
This does not imply that Christ has given up the Kingdom of Heaven...on the contrary, His Kingdom of God has never been under any danger. No one cometh unto the Father but by Him.
While ALL who name the name of Christ are Kingdom of Heaven, only the Truly Converted are in the Kingdom of God.
Don't forget to read Matthew 13! With this teaching of the Kingdom in mind,it will give you fresh insight.

Your Brother,
Julian of York
John 15:9

 

[qtld]

The workers asked the farmer if they should pull up the "weeds", but he said no,let them grow together until the harvest,when they will be seperated,some to burn,and some to be gathered in.

How then Jesus and his disciples have pulled up the weeds i.e. the unclean spirits even before about 2000 years?

 

[Major]

Matthew 11:12 - And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

What does this really mean. The way I heard it taught before was that this is God's people taking heaven by force and is a good thing. But I'm reading in some places that it's a bad thing, like it's being raided by unglodly men or something... Which is it?

Well, lets see what we can do about this. There is nothing better than discussing the Word of God!!

I believe the meaning of this saying and the connection of verses 12-14 with the preceeding and following contexts, tell us that John opened the kingdom of heaven to sinners and thus became the culminating point of the Old Test. witness. Jesus' statementthat THIS IS ELIJAH (Elias) indicates that He saw the ministry of John as the fullfilment of the prophecy of the coming of Elijah in Malichi 4:5-6.

This is a valuable hint hint that we are not to over literalize Old Test. prophecy. The meaning of Malichi 4:6 seems to be that John was to form a link between the Old Test. and New Test.
That being the case, then the word SUFFERETH would be in the passive voice indicating that the CHURCH has been suffering from the days of John until the words written here by Matthew.
The same verb is used in Luke 16:16 by the way.

 

[qtld]

The meaning of Matthew 11:12 is that if someone believer can not obtain the Righteousness by nature, then it can do it if forced oneself starting from the basic renunciation, of which St. John the Baptist has been the perfect model.

 

[Mark_18]

Hmmm, a lot of this doesn't seam right to me. Just being honest. For one, reading Matthew 13, it seams to totally disagree with Julian on who the Kingdom of heaven refers to.....

"The Parable of the Weeds Explained
Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear."


It says the GOOD seeds are people of the Kingdom of heaven.


And so if there are violent people taking it by force, it sounds like what I suspected...

 

[Mark_18]

Plus it says the Kingdom's beign taken by force right after it talks about John being the least int he Kingdom of heaven.

I have another question though, what does this mean.... And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. -Matt 11:14

 

[qtld]

The "weeds" are the unclean spirits, and the human/soul beings themselves can not remove (alone) the unclean spirits, but only the true Lord God and those who He has made to ​​can are the Skilled/Mighty in this aspect, and so, the interpretation of the parable is: God, do you want we to remove the unclean spirits?, No, because you by yourself can not do this operation Correctly/Perfectly, but leave this work/job to the Angels/Servants by who I Do it Rightly/Perfectly - for the others enough (it) is the Prayer.

John the Baptist is Elijah i.e. he is the Saint Who prepare(-d) the way for the Lord Himself, namely this is the meaning of the word "elijah", so that, John the Baptist is not those prophet Elijah from the time of (the) old testament, but He is the New Elijah.

 

[Mark_18]

Oookay. See what it comes down to clarifying is whether the seed is the person or the spirit, because here:

“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.“

The seed is what was snatched away, meaning the seed was what was planted, not the person. I didn`t give it enough thought before. That also helps me understand why it`s important how I hear, as well as how I plant seeds in others.

But, I get a little confused again when I go back to where it plainly says the seeds represent the people of the Kingdom...

 

[qtld]

Simply, the meaning is in layers, firstly, the "good seeds" are the human-beings, also, the soul-beings at all, secondly, the "good seeds" are some/the (specific) Good things in the life of the respective humans/souls - that's all.

 

[Major]

The meaning of Matthew 11:12 is that if someone believer can not obtain the Righteousness by nature, then it can do it if forced oneself starting from the basic renunciation, of which St. John the Baptist has been the perfect model.

Say what???????????

 

[Glomung]

Matthew 11:12 - And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

How about a much simpler interpretation: From the days of John the Baptist there were actual believers (members of the Kingdom of God, John's disciples who would in time become Christians) and they had been persecuted (suffered violence), and had been taken by force (arrested or imprisoned).​

 

[Christine]

I never realized how many metaphors God uses in His book. I have this habit of reading it literally instead of really thinking about it.

 

[Glomung]

And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. -Matt 11:14

It means that John the Baptist has gotten the job that Elijah had before.

"planted good seed" is given good doctrine.
In other words, the people are told the truth, some don't understand it from the start, these the devil dissuades from taking the time to understand the truth, some understand, but get caught up in life and do nothing with what they have learned, others understand and produce good fruit (results).

 

[Drew]

I never realized how many metaphors God uses in His book. I have this habit of reading it literally instead of really thinking about it.

Ah, this is my problem. Flying through the word and not stopping to think about it. Every time I listen to a sermon from someone like John Piper im like wow, now thats a guy who knows how to get everything out of the word.

 

[Christine]

Yeah, same here and I always say to myself "I can never do that!"

 

[Major]

And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. -Matt 11:14

It means that John the Baptist has gotten the job that Elijah had before.

"planted good seed" is given good doctrine.
In other words, the people are told the truth, some don't understand it from the start, these the devil dissuades from taking the time to understand the truth, some understand, but get caught up in life and do nothing with what they have learned, others understand and produce good fruit (results).

Agreed. Seems simple to me dosen't it.

 

[Major]

I never realized how many metaphors God uses in His book. I have this habit of reading it literally instead of really thinking about it.

That is an excellant habit to have. It is the best way to understand the Bible and if it is a metaphor, trust in the Holy Spirit to make it known to you.

This is also an excellant reason to be involved in a Bible bleieving and teaching church. You would then have the help of a good man of God to help you grow and learn.

 

[Mark_18]

Good Stuff Major, Solid belief in the Word sure is a good habbit.