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Ministers -Leaders or servants?

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Jesus says that at the end of our time on earth on the great judgment day we will all face God and He will reward us according to our works. And we can enter the kingdom when He congratulates us by saying 'well done, good and faithful servants'

Why is it then that some churches only want leaders not servants. I dont quite understand this 'leadership' mentality. There are conferences for 'ministry leaders' 'worship leaders' bible college advertise 'are you called to be a leader'. Some chuches will put in the most bossy, loudest, tallest or richest person to 'lead' the congregation.

JEsus kingdom is an upside down kingdom in which ministers are called to serve others. How can they do this if they are constantly exalting themselves and boasting about 'leadership' going on all these 'leadership conferences' that exclude everyone else, and comparing how big their churches are to others. How can they follow Christ if all they want to do is lead but ignore the fact that God wants everyone to follow His son, who is the head of the church. How can ministers say they 'lead' a church when its the holy spirit who is doing the leading, not man.

HAs God changed and now congratulating His children by saying 'well done, good and faithful leaders'? You led over 300 people. You can now enter into your work - serving 300 people.
 
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Cturtle

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I think for me... it's just a term. I'm sure for many people they like the title of leader because it sounds important. But in all reality those "leaders" are serving the people by allowing God to use them in the area that He has graced them in. In order for the Holy Spirit to minister to the people who are not tuned into Him.. He needs a physical body (someone who is a part of the "body" of Christ) to speak for Him. And be a physical touch to those who don't know how much He loves them and don't know that they can hear Him speak to their hearts (inner man, spirit)
Blessings
 
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Sometimes it seems to me some church 'leaders' come across as self-serving.

Jesus never styled himself as a 'leader'. He was always serving others, even washing his disciples feet. He humbled himself. When we minister, we are serving. I dont get the leadership idolatry and am very wary of stuff like that- thats how cults start.
 
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bobinfaith

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Lanolin, This has been going on in church history for centuries, through these here and now times. There is one fester that you are talking about and that is the false teacher.

I cannot speak of other churches but can give my testimony in the church I serve. I teach my church family that speaking the truth in love reference Ephesians 4:15 is the first step toward true followers of Christ. The world cannot save anyone without truth and few people cannot listen to the truth without love. Love is so hard for people in the church because they have not developed with the right training in deep application of the Bible and "Shepherd building." Bitterness is so much easier, even in the church, and this can keep people away from God.

This is where the false teachers come in, portraying exactly what is written in this thread, Ministers - Leaders or Servants? They claim to be shepherds, even servants, who feed only themselves.

Here is a sign or flag of ministers, leaders or servants that we must keep guard. God's wrath is aroused when the Pastor or leader grumbles against his own church family, or when a servant grumbles against the Pastor. Not good. God is watching.

I did a paper on 1 John 1:5-5:21 Please read this short epistle and I hope we all can get to the verb that supports your thread.

1 John 1:5 - 2:18-27
Sin vs. Obedience.
The light represents what is good, pure, true, holy and reliable, versus the darkness representing what is sinful and evil.
Love for One Another. This command is old being from the Old Testament and the new being from Jesus who interpreted it in a new way.
Correct Christology. The false teachers were claiming God while denying and opposing Christ. The correct Christology is believing in Jesus as the Son of God accepts God the Father at the same time.

1 John 2:28 - 4:1-6
Sin vs. Righteousness.
Doing right in God’s sight is true faith resulting from serving others.
Love for One Another. As we emulate Jesus the world will hate us at the same time we love others and help them in time of need.
Correct Christology. We should not always believe the false teachers without testing the spirits. One way is to see if their message and conduct is truly from the Word of God.

1 John 4:7 - 5:21
Love for One Another.
This third cycle is not in the same order as the other two tests of life. John does mention love from verses 7 to 21 except for verses 13-15 God is revealing the spirit in us that empowers the love we receive from God and our love for others.
Correct Christology. Belief in Jesus as the Son of God, loving others and obedience is the connection of the third cycle.
Sin vs. Life. John was referring to the people who choose sin over Christ, rejecting salvation putting themselves out of reach of prayer, and our brothers in fellowship who have sinned but are constantly coming back to Jesus and seeking repentance. We are encouraged to pray for both our loved ones and Christian brothers and sisters leaving the judgment up to God.

My point to your thread is this. A sign of a minister, leader or servant with a Shepherd's heart will respect the intelligence of his church family and by teaching them, they will be surprised and blessed how they want to learn and will ask good questions for their personal growth. With God's building up, a church family will learn the spirit of discernment toward their Shepherd.

Continue to thank God for the growth of the people ministered to. Challenge the church family to put others first. Be an example of yourself so others will see your fruit. Share your fruit with others so they can grow. Uplift faithful believers publicly. Warn against the false teachers, heretics and back stabbing grumblers. Always thank people for their support and be content no matter how little or big.
 

Fish Catcher Jim

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Most claims about false teachers and putting down on the church is done by those who don't yet have any understanding to what's being taught and they close off their heart to getting understanding.

Then there are those who think the church should be done their way and nit pick everything under selfish desires or self pleasing.

There is far to much if this going on and believers are being Deceived from the church to being self taught and they are falling away from understanding and Growth in Christ.

They actually replace the voice of the Holy Spirit with their own and all along claim it's God.

Sad but true.
Blessings
 

bobinfaith

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Amen, FC Jim;

I'm in agreement with you on all 4 points. We must continue to pray, including right here, for God to break the barriers, yet continue to serve our part in love and understanding.

Jesus says that at the end of our time on earth on the great judgment day we will all face God and He will reward us according to our works. And we can enter the kingdom when He congratulates us by saying 'well done, good and faithful servants'

Why is it then that some churches only want leaders not servants. I dont quite understand this 'leadership' mentality.

HAs God changed and now congratulating His children by saying 'well done, good and faithful leaders'? You led over 300 people. You can now enter into your work - serving 300 people.
Lanolin, because the church needs to understand that leaders must be servants, first. Jesus was the great example. I like your opening and closing statements. Well said.
 

Fish Catcher Jim

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The ministries that I am part of only recognize serving the church or body.
If you come seeking to be over this or that or present that you qualified to be in leadership then you will be turned away or offered a small humbling task or way to serve.

It is God who moves you through promotion.

God must prepare and qualify you for leadership but most won't put in the time to be qualified by God.

There is an old saying which will always hold true.

Its Best to be Sent
Then to just went.

Far to many Christians get involved in all these things thinking they are serving God and totally miss Gods plan for them.

I would rather be sent to a church to clean toilets and be where God wanted me then to be in a church of my choice filling a position that only makes me feel important or praise from man.

Blessings
 
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I was abit disconcerted by this church magazine that was advertising for leaders, by a bible college saying are you called to be a leader? Then enrol in bible college. Also it had ads for pastor vacancies, but it was saying you need leadership qualities etc. Also all the articles were written by 'ministry leaders' but it really wasnt talking about serving others or cleaning toilets or anything like that, but demographics of the congregation and how to get more people to go to church.

Then it talked about all these meetings the 'leaders' had to try and convince more people to attend church. I just think something is amiss in these kinds of churches...its as if they just want more people to go to church so the 'leader' can have a decent salary.

Why do they just not advertise for servants?! If you are called to be in the office of a pastor, that is not a career move. Its a vocation. Plus a pastor is someone who looks after and feeds the sheep. If a pastor thinks that is leading, they are mistaken. It is serving. Sheep will recognise and follow the shepherd who actually feeds them and loves them. They are not going to follow someone who just SAYS they are the boss.

Are you called to be a leader? No. There is a reason why Jesus when he came did not openly announce he was King of Israel. If he had taken the Kingdom then, and he was actually tempted by the devil to take it, he would have forfeited any claim to the throne.
Are you called to serve? YES! This is what Jesus asks all of us to do.
 
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Not all churches are like this but just some kinds of churches I am not meaning to say its characteristic of most churches just some are man made and not Holy spirit led. I really dont like to see churches turning themselves into a business which sadly, some are heading in that direction.

If we dont discern what is happening and warn others to be wary people can end up in man made cults taking the Lords name in vain with tragic consequences. This is what happened in Jonestown. I mean extreme example but theres lots of cults that centre on some charistmatic 'leader' who then fleeces the flock.
 
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bobinfaith

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Yes, Lanolin;

It is disconcerting in the church but God also empowers us, one believer or a body of believers, to be "forward thinking", "prayer warriors," "solution minded" and proactively seek to bring our churches back into the heart of worship for the Kingdom.

Serving is a huge part of worship, not a business institution with too many chiefs and not enough servants.

Forward thinking? Solution minded? We started with a small group of mature believers who know the scriptures, including the new believers who are learning the scriptures and observed prayer, confession, forgiveness, reconciliation and restoration beginning with ourselves. The Lord revealed how we are all servants first and He has His special assignment for the Shepherd. It could be Dad, Mom, brother, sister, relative and friend who also serve as shepherds to those who need nurturing within the family, young children, your job or ministry at church.

The Lord gave me my assignment by using me to take the time to encourage our youth to participate more during worship service and community - set up the sound equipment, distribute the pew Bibles, pass out the bulletin, assist me during the offering, etc...This is healthy because they are learning to serve God and others. One day they will be capable of leading and training when the next person takes over whatever needs to be done in the church or community.

It works when our "ministers, leaders and servants" learn to provide the right training to servants, for His glory.

Servants breed servants for the Lord.
 
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Its the little things that matter, you right, whether its welcoming others, serving morning tea, cleaning the church, washing the dishes. In some churches they dont allow you to be free to serve, there's conditions. You give of yourself but then you find that you cant do certain things because someone else has said no and wants to control the way things are done. Many people leave these types of churches that are controlling and not allowing others gifts to operate. If the young ones arent encouraged to help out and be involved in church life then they are going to leave because there is nothing for them to do! For a young person, they dont want to be sitting still in a pew at the back corner of the church when they have much to offer. Perhaps they dont have any money (cos they dont have a job...how can they tithe their income if they dont have any? ) and only have two loaves and three fish, but that bread and fish is important to Jesus!

It really is a case of too many chiefs, not enough indians. (Just referring to that common saying) Nobody is meant to squabble over who gets to sit next to Jesus.

Jesus said let the greatest among you be his servant. He came not to be served, but to serve.
 
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Fish Catcher Jim

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Or perhaps an organization felt God called them to instruct and prepare folks.
Then it's just advertising and perhaps to make some money.

However God calls many into leadership because there are positions needed filled beyond your local small churches.

It's better to pray for understanding rather then get upset and start knocking things.
Blessings
 

CoffeeDrinker

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Jesus says that at the end of our time on earth on the great judgment day we will all face God and He will reward us according to our works. And we can enter the kingdom when He congratulates us by saying 'well done, good and faithful servants'

Why is it then that some churches only want leaders not servants. I dont quite understand this 'leadership' mentality. There are conferences for 'ministry leaders' 'worship leaders' bible college advertise 'are you called to be a leader'. Some chuches will put in the most bossy, loudest, tallest or richest person to 'lead' the congregation.

JEsus kingdom is an upside down kingdom in which ministers are called to serve others. How can they do this if they are constantly exalting themselves and boasting about 'leadership' going on all these 'leadership conferences' that exclude everyone else, and comparing how big their churches are to others. How can they follow Christ if all they want to do is lead but ignore the fact that God wants everyone to follow His son, who is the head of the church. How can ministers say they 'lead' a church when its the holy spirit who is doing the leading, not man.

HAs God changed and now congratulating His children by saying 'well done, good and faithful leaders'? You led over 300 people. You can now enter into your work - serving 300 people.
First, I think we are all servants as we are called to serve God individually first.
I think good leaders should have the heart of a servant and he / she should walk in humility. A good strong leader usually is a humble person.
I personally feel as though we are called to be servants first before God usually puts us in a leadership role.

I am not a leader in my church and I do not serve on staff, I do volunteer. I would think the head pastor would have to have the right people in place who can communicate to him. One of the things I love about my pastor is that he is a humble man. He does not exalt himself above anyone in our church. I never hear the people in my church refer to themselves as leaders. They always refer to themselves as servants to the Lord. I think this is one of the things that attracted me to this church. They are a group of humble people that walk together in their journey. It's been a blessing to me. We all network together and try to be a blessing to everyone, especially visitors and those who may not know the Lord personally.

I have taken leadership courses given by the military through the U.S. Army War College for executives in the workforce. These classes are taught by Generals, etc. A good strong leader has to know his/her people and communication is key to their success. You also have to have the right people in the right positions. I think a Pastor has to be very careful in putting the right people into leadership positions in the church. These people represent the Pastor. I am sure it's hard because if a person in leadership is walking in sin I think that can throw a huge kink in the church. Being a head pastor of a church has to be a great / hard responsibility to walk in.
 

CoffeeDrinker

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The ministries that I am part of only recognize serving the church or body.
If you come seeking to be over this or that or present that you qualified to be in leadership then you will be turned away or offered a small humbling task or way to serve.

It is God who moves you through promotion.

God must prepare and qualify you for leadership but most won't put in the time to be qualified by God.

There is an old saying which will always hold true.

Its Best to be Sent
Then to just went.

Far to many Christians get involved in all these things thinking they are serving God and totally miss Gods plan for them.

I would rather be sent to a church to clean toilets and be where God wanted me then to be in a church of my choice filling a position that only makes me feel important or praise from man.

Blessings
Very true. I agree with you 100%.
 
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I am not upset and knocking things why would you think that. I wrote to this church magazine pointing out a few things wrong with their approach. Why, because when the holy spirit is grieved, you need to say something. Its not through lack of understanding - its very clear in Gods word what He expects of us.

In the Bible God calls us to be servants. Even if we are overseeing others, we are still serving Him.
Paul the missionary who everyone could say was a leader, never did refer to himself as one, always called himself a servant.

Where people get these wrong ideas that God calls us to lead, does not really read what God says. Even when you are teaching others you are serving. Even angels say do not worship them, they are servants.

Jesus said the gentiles lord it over others, but those that follow Him will never do that.
 

Fish Catcher Jim

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I am not upset and knocking things why would you think that
Hi Lanolin,
If you go back and look at my post you will see it was a blank statement written to anyone that reads through this thread.

If it would have been directed to you then, I would have quoted a part like I did here or used the quote and reply containing your entire post or would have tagged you such as this Lanolin .

Blessings to you!
 
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Fish Catcher Jim

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Where people get these wrong ideas that God calls us to lead, does not really read what God says.
Actually Lanolin God does call and prepares many for leadership of some kind.

He calls some to build an operate schools for training.

God will also send His servants there to be trained and work within the ministry there.
Many times it years and years later that He then calls these folks into their own ministry.

Leaders do serve but they get their instructions from God and not people.

Blessings
 

Fish Catcher Jim

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. I wrote to this church magazine pointing out a few things wrong with their approach. Why, because when the holy spirit is grieved, you need to say something. Its not through lack of understanding - its very clear in Gods word wh
Let me ask you this, do you have any real idea what God has told them to do or how to do it?

If not then how can you honestly say they were wrong?

Blessings
 
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Let me ask you this, do you have any real idea what God has told them to do or how to do it?

If not then how can you honestly say they were wrong?

Blessings
What do you mean, about the magazine? Well they were actually asking for feedback. They held a survey so I just told my thoughts cos they asked for it and also what the Bible says.

They were wanting to know if anybody read their magazine and what we thought about it. Since all their articles were written only by those in leadership I just said it didnt seem relevant to the rest of us who werent - i.e the laypeople.

The issue I have with this church magazine - it used to be a newspaper - they changed their focus and now it seems written only for pastors instead of what it was before for the whole church family. They got rid of their letters page and only allowed those viewpoints of those who were in leadership.
 
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