Random Thoughts on Free Will

[LearningToLetGo]

I had a rather disturbing dream last night. I won't tell what it was but if you are inclined to know then by all means send a personal message.

Mid-dream I shot up from bed, willing myself to awaken since I wanted nothing more to do with it. It was then that thought started pouring into my mind. Since it was still dark I did not want to leave my bed but I told myself to remember so I could write my thoughts first thing in the morning, and here they are, verbatim from my journal.

FREE WILL

"Thy will be done."

The Bible exhorts us to follow God's will and not our own, yet society makes a big deal of the fact that we each have our own agency. That is to say we each have free will. We laud free will as a pinnacle virtue, that which separates us from animals, freeing our minds. What, however, are we freed from?

Will, freed from the coercion of our fellow man is a virtue but will freed from God is an abomination. Is the fact that we have free will proof of our fallen nature?

In the Garden man lived alongside beasts yet no one was attacked nor eaten. The same was apparently true of Noah's ark wherein all mortal things were saved. Yet now, if man and beasts cohabitate one will necessarily die. Is this not proof of our fallen world?

My thought is that free will, to the extent that it exists, grants us agency in choosing how to implement God's will. It does not permit us to refuse God's will. That said, since the fall at least, we can and do refuse God's will. We do so in the belief that our will is perfectly free and ours to control as we see fit. This presumption, mistake if you will, is the root cause of all suffering since it created and still creates a cascade effect that spills over into reality itself. Animals eat animals. Death and destruction abound. It's all our fault. We did it, and continue to do it again and again since we think we are free when we are not.

 

[Big Moose]

Your quote, "My thought is that free will, to the extent that it exists, grants us agency in choosing how to implement God's will. It does not permit us to refuse God's will. "

This along with what you post after, seems to infer that God's will is going to play out and our free will, whether in tune with God's or not, plays a part in the outcome of God's will. I agree, but this begs a question- Was it God's will that the Flood would happen from the beginning, or was this just a detour of God fixing what humanity (and possibly fallen angels) had screwed up by way too many of them following their will "freed from God"? Is this what really brings about the end times since the last days will be like the days of Noah?

 

[cocoa]

Our will is perfectly free. At anytime we can willfully go against God's will. However, as believers we should willingly submit to God's will. "Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..."

Before the flood, God gave them 120yrs but was Noah commanded to build the ark during the 120yrs or after? Genesis 6:3.

God's will and man's, will how are they connected? Does God know the future and not interfere? This is a mystery.

 

[Davey Do]

Thank you so much for sharing the basic background of your situation, LearningToLetGo, for it makes you more real to me rather than merely words on my screen. Also is the fact that I experience nighttime anxiety at times and commiserate with you.

I was taken by your statement of "it does not permit us to refuse God's will" in that Seneca said something along the lines of "The fates lead those that will and those who won't, they drag". We need to submit to God's will or be casted into the darkness of victimized self-reprisal and pity.

There are numerous times in my life when things didn't go my way or as I expected, and when I allowed God to lead me- at times acquiescing- my life seemed to become more flowing, like a Zen thing.

 

[bobinfaith]

Good morning, LearningToLetGo;

It seems free will has been the topic of the week. Free will has a wide range in defining. You posted, "The Bible exhorts us to follow God's will and not our own, yet society makes a big deal of the fact that we each have our own agency."

Amen, Jason. After reading your statement and the following posts from everyone allowed me to take a step back and reflect.

A question that many people ask, why does God allow so much suffering in the world while we choose to follow God's will?

The suffering is also granted to those who choose bad free will instead of following God. The consequences will be on God. In our lifetime we have to endure their bad free will in suffering. At the same time those who choose to follow God's will is promised that He will protect us from the evil of others reference Psalm 121:7-8.

Right now the wildfires in Southern California is heavy on my heart. I don't have the free will ability to go down there and help in any way that I can. I feel helpless and have been praying, fervently. But I believe through prayer a Church member's husband and his Army aircraft volunteered and were sent yesterday to help the residences. They should be there now.

I don't know if this aligns with everyone but it's what this thread and everyone's posts spoke to me last night and this morning.

God bless you all.

Bob

 

[Siloam]

Questions concerning free will and such things as God’s sovereignty per-destination, eternal security, have been with us from ancient times.

Attempts to definitively answer these questions have been illusive for the same length of time.

The answer, it seems to me, depends on whether one is talking about our personal point of view, or God’s point of view.

But God, who made everything within the universe, including time, exists outside of the stream of time. Being outside of time means that He has perfect view of all points within time. His knowledge is complete and infallible. He knew and could experience my eventual (from my point of view) acceptance of His Word, even as I sinned. That acceptance is still before Him, even if (when) I sin in the future. It is always just as He always knows it is.

But from our point of view our lives, particularly our spiritual lives, are made of choices. From our point of view those choices have real consequences. Thus, I was born with a predisposition (inherited from Adam) to sin. I eventually did sin, I heard the Word and believed and am now saved. While I am no longer sinless, my sins have been taken by God in the Flesh.

If I had made other choices then I would likely have different consequences, but God would have perfectly known that also. I cannot surprise God.

From a practical perspective, it is well to understand the choices with which we are presented and endeavor to make choices that please God.

 

[bobinfaith]

Questions concerning free will and such things as God’s sovereignty per-destination, eternal security, have been with us from ancient times. Attempts to definitively answer these questions have been illusive for the same length of time. The answer, it seems to me, depends on whether one is talking about our personal point of view, or God’s point of view. But God, who made everything within the universe, including time, exists outside of the stream of time. Being outside of time means that He has perfect view of all points within time. His knowledge is complete and infallible. He knew and could experience my eventual (from my point of view) acceptance of His Word, even as I sinned. That acceptance is still before Him, even if (when) I sin in the future. It is always just as He always knows it is. But from our point of view our lives, particularly our spiritual lives, are made of choices. From our point of view those choices have real consequences. Thus, I was born with a predisposition (inherited from Adam) to sin. I eventually did sin, I heard the Word and believed and am now saved. While I am no longer sinless, my sins have been taken by God in the Flesh. If I had made other choices then I would likely have different consequences, but God would have perfectly known that also. I cannot surprise God. From a practical perspective, it is well to understand the choices with which we are presented and endeavor to make choices that please God.

Hello Siloam;

I enjoyed reading your post and it's always good to hear from you. Your fellowship and wisdom is always a blessing.

You share the distinguishment between God, His perfect sovereignty and our point of view filled with imperfect choices mixed with sin. The breaker here is His Grace.

God bless you and thank you for sharing.

Bob

 

[Major]

Your quote, "My thought is that free will, to the extent that it exists, grants us agency in choosing how to implement God's will. It does not permit us to refuse God's will. "

This along with what you post after, seems to infer that God's will is going to play out and our free will, whether in tune with God's or not, plays a part in the outcome of God's will. I agree, but this begs a question- Was it God's will that the Flood would happen from the beginning, or was this just a detour of God fixing what humanity (and possibly fallen angels) had screwed up by way too many of them following their will "freed from God"? Is this what really brings about the end times since the last days will be like the days of Noah?

I believe that you are asking........."Why did God send the flood when He knew sin would continue after the flood"?

If that is what you are asking, may I say to you that God sent the flood when He knew that evil would continue is to interpret mankind’s sin in the time of Noah as something unique and significantly more severe than what we see in the world today, so in fact it was Judgment.

Then another possible answer for why God sent the flood when He knew that evil would continue is somewhat more general.
1 Corth. 10:11 tells us that the stories in the Old Testament are useful as more than historical records: .........
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.”

In the story of the flood is an example for us to heed.

If not and it is only freedom of choice then we need to consider Isaiah 30:1.........
“Woe to the rebellious children who take counsel, but not of Me, and who devise plans, but not of My Spirit…”!

When we seek God’s counsel, in His word, in His house, and in prayer with Him, and then do what He says to do, we can live life with enthusiasm and confidence. We can live life as bold as a lion.

If and when we Choose to ignore the will of God and we don’t seek His counsel, when we ignore Him and plot our own path, our spirit isn’t right. We’re influenced by guilt and fear. Even if we don’t express it on the surface, even if it’s at the unconscious level, deep in our hearts, we’re not whole, we’re not right in our spirit and we will pay the price of God's discipline!

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[bobinfaith]

Your quote, "My thought is that free will, to the extent that it exists, grants us agency in choosing how to implement God's will. It does not permit us to refuse God's will. " This along with what you post after, seems to infer that God's will is going to play out and our free will, whether in tune with God's or not, plays a part in the outcome of God's will. I agree, but this begs a question- Was it God's will that the Flood would happen from the beginning, or was this just a detour of God fixing what humanity (and possibly fallen angels) had screwed up by way too many of them following their will "freed from God"? Is this what really brings about the end times since the last days will be like the days of Noah?

I believe that you are asking........."Why did God send the flood when He knew sin would continue after the flood"? If that is what you are asking, may I say to you that God sent the flood when He knew that evil would continue is to interpret mankind’s sin in the time of Noah as something unique and significantly more severe than what we see in the world today, so in fact it was Judgment. Then another possible answer for why God sent the flood when He knew that evil would continue is somewhat more general. 1 Corth. 10:11 tells us that the stories in the Old Testament are useful as more than historical records: .........These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.” In the story of the flood is an example for us to heed. If not and it is only freedom of choice then we need to consider Isaiah 30:1.........“Woe to the rebellious children who take counsel, but not of Me, and who devise plans, but not of My Spirit…”! When we seek God’s counsel, in His word, in His house, and in prayer with Him, and then do what He says to do, we can live life with enthusiasm and confidence. We can live life as bold as a lion. If and when we Choose to ignore the will of God and we don’t seek His counsel, when we ignore Him and plot our own path, our spirit isn’t right. We’re influenced by guilt and fear. Even if we don’t express it on the surface, even if it’s at the unconscious level, deep in our hearts, we’re not whole, we’re not right in our spirit and we will pay the price of God's discipline!

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Good morning, Big Moose and Major;

Your posts are excellent questions and understanding of God's judgments. I believe God's judgments, solely from the Bible, raise questions and understanding because we are concerned about our personal walk and times of obedience and disobedience.

God's judgment is not the same "across the board" in Genesis 7:17-23 (The Flood,) Genesis 19:14-28 (Sodom and Gomorrah,) Exodus 14:21-28 (Parting of the Red Sea.) But God's judgments are there for these reasons;

"In a twisted way," God's reaction to our wayward free will demonstrate His wrath against wickedness, His great patience when we co-exist with ungodliness and His great power against iniquity. At the same time God reveals His protection, unconditional love for us, and again, patience, for His people when we sin, leading us to a deeper fear, respect and love for our God.

God bless everyone.

Bob