Salvation after Rapture

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#41
I always battled with the idea of them experiencing God's wrath. This seems reasonable.
Hello King. I hope that all is well with you and you have had a great year. I pray that the new year will be a great one for you and your family.

I agree with you in that the 144,000 will experience God's wrath.

When I read Revelation 7:5-8, it says to me that this group is coming from among the Jewish people, with 12,000 from each of 12 named tribes. There is too much of a specific nature to suggest anything other than a literal interpretation of this passage. These are newly converted Jewish male virgin men who will be evangelists who will pick up where the Church leaves off after the rapture.
It'll be their job to bring the Gospel to the world during Daniel's 70th Week. With all hell breaking loose I do not see how they can escape the wrath of God.

Now to me, if they had they been believers before the rapture, they'd have disappeared with the Church.

Then, if the church was still here, there'd be no need for them.

But according to Rev. 5, the Church is in Heaven and Daniel's 70th Week has begun as seen in Rev. 6, and the Lord needs someone on Earth to tell His story for Him according to Matt. 24:14.
 
#42
I agree with you in that the 144,000 will experience God's wrath.
"Experience" may be too broad a term. They may "witness" the wrath of God but it won't befall them as they are sealed, Rev 7:3, which states don't do harm to anything until they're sealed. They will only be overcome and killed by the AC, just like the Two Witnesses, but not killed because of the wrath of God.
 
#43
Of that I am sure. I have read enough of your words to know that you believe in the Lord Jesus as your Saviour.

However, as I leave you I would like to give you some advice which you are free to accept and apply or reject and continue on as you are. I have no sword to pull on you and I have not animosity toward you. You seem very sinceree although misguided in many areas.

Gerald, speaking and defending the truth of God's Word are some of the most important responsibilities of the church, its leaders and, all believers. There are many who propagate error and there are a few who stand for doctrinal purity. But we must contend for the faith by the right method and with the right attitude. To this end, Paul provides some very clear instructions:

We are to “avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife” as seen in 2 Timothy 2:23. This does not only apply to our relationship with those who are likeminded but especially, to those who are of a different persuasion. Obviously we do not have disputes with those who believe like we do but alas that is where we find you at. Usually the disputes we have are with those with whom we disagree. The context also makes it clear that this instruction applies when we relate to “those who are in opposition.” 2 Timothy 2:23 tells us that and with those who have been entrapped by the devil (v 26).

Sometimes I think that many people who get into apologetic type ministries, which is the essence of forum works, do so simply because they love an argument. Even if that was not what got them into this kind of work, it seems to be what motivates them. Many just love the excitement of the scrap, and they get their kicks out of proving how right they are and how wrong others are. I know a few who will disagree with anything one says – just to pick an argument.
(If you are irritated by these words you may well be one of these.)

Others enjoy the fact that engaging in debate makes them feel intellectual, while others just must have the last word. Then there are those who just have to win every argument and who, like bulldogs, cannot release once their jaws have locked onto the prey.
Now all of this is simply MY opinion however, if YOUR phone is ringing........ANSWER IT!!!!

Paul is very specific: we are to avoid those arguments that lead to strife. Even as I write, I know someone is rushing to remind me that Paul refers to “foolish and ignorant disputes” and that arguments about the Truth cannot be “foolish and ignorant.” The fact is that it is the process of dispute or argument itself that is foolish and ignorant, not the subject. On several occasions, Paul warns Timothy not to argue over words and the Law but rather to concentrate on things that are edifying:

1 Tim. 1:4...........
"Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do."

1 Tim. 4:7.............
"But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness."

Fell free to ignore all that I have said. But in all honesty I may be totally wrong on this and it may if fact be me who is at fault.
All I know is that I can no longer continue with you in this way on conversing.

May the Lord bless you and keep you in the palm of His loving hand.
What cunningly devised fables and genealogies have to do with this I dont know. As we are not discussing either.
Nor are we discussing the law but the coming of the Lord and principally the Bride of Christ .
What I am disucussing or in the truest sense arguing or contending against is the entrenched and false ideas of the Bride of Christ which in turn leads and has led and still does to the misunderstandings and the endless debates you say you seek to avoid.
I refuse point blank therefore and will resist the same errors that have literally bedeviled the church and will ensure that if still held will ensure that many will be robbed of that inheritance and crown .Not of their salvation as of a child of God . But as to failing to be ready at the coming of the Lord and like the 5 foolish virgins will be unrecognisable as the Bride and will like them be barred from the and I quote the "marriage".
I object in the stongest way possible to an argument such as they are where all is reduced to being BORNagain . or the one here presented of an accusation that does not apply expecially when you consider the scriptures say "hold fast to that which is good"
Be steadfast ,immovable always abounding in the Lord"
So I will take your argument and say that having stated the truth unless there are other indications otherwise will leave you with your own conclusions .For I have by the grace of God stated it as it is and while imperfectly perhaps it iss till the truth and in the truest sense of the Word used biblical argument to substantiate it.
if not yourself then perhaps those who do not write but read what si written both in heaven and on earth will take heed of it.

and get themselves ready .

in Christ
gerald
 
#44
to me,
the rapture event occurs when the two prophets are raptured, and Jesus is seen in the sky by the whole world, presumably on TV.
then the great day of wrath comes. The great Tribulation being a time of persecution and the first 3 1/2 years reign of the beast over the kings of the earth.
I think many many Christians, as in religious church attenders, will NOT be raptured as
in the ten virgins some were ready and some were not,
one person was taken one was not scripture.
Also those that receive the mark of the beast, ie Christians, will taste the wrath of God.
But can you be saved after the rapture occurs?
I think the 144,000 jews are converted after the appearance of Jesus, and I don't think the Jews will
accept the mark of the beast, especially if he is an Islamic hitler.
Though the wrath of God is poured out on earth I think there will still be about 2 billion people
surviving but does the mark of the beast cancel salvation,
it cancels rapture and would lead to eternal shame
because you valued your material security and health above faith in Christ.
Better not get that mark, starving is a better option.
nearly one in seven people now have a tattoo so the tattoo shops are there for you....it will
be so easy for you to accept and so hard to believe.
"Can you be saved after the rapture?? Does the mark of the beast cancel salvation? Better not get that mark.." These are the type of questions that are ask that the false belief of futurism brings. A fairy tale novel. And I believe honest questions from what this prophetic belief teaches. But know this, it was Created by Jesuits, to counter the belief that believers were standing on during the reformation and then after. That is, the seat of antichrist resides in Rome. Popery is ANTICHRIST! Futuristic prophecy takes u away from seeing that. Takes u away from seeing Christs church biggest enemy! And is one way it brings "Protestants" back to Rome. The Day of the Lord is Christ second coming. Not two separate 2nd comings with a secret catching away or rapture. It's one event! The LAST trump! 1Cor15 and Rev10.. Futurism promotes the lie of Zionism as well.. The Promise was to the SEED of Abraham.. Who is Christ! And those in Christ.. And heirs according to the promise! Those who are of faith, like faithful Abraham..
 
#46
"Can you be saved after the rapture?? Does the mark of the beast cancel salvation? Better not get that mark.." These are the type of questions that are ask that the false belief of futurism brings. A fairy tale novel. And I believe honest questions from what this prophetic belief teaches. But know this, it was Created by Jesuits, to counter the belief that believers were standing on during the reformation and then after. That is, the seat of antichrist resides in Rome. Popery is ANTICHRIST! Futuristic prophecy takes u away from seeing that. Takes u away from seeing Christs church biggest enemy! And is one way it brings "Protestants" back to Rome. The Day of the Lord is Christ second coming. Not two separate 2nd comings with a secret catching away or rapture. It's one event! The LAST trump! 1Cor15 and Rev10.. Futurism promotes the lie of Zionism as well.. The Promise was to the SEED of Abraham.. Who is Christ! And those in Christ.. And heirs according to the promise! Those who are of faith, like faithful Abraham..
Like many others you are mixing truth with error .
We are indeed in a reverse reformation and that which was beyond all reasonable doubt proved to be the false teachings of the Roman church by biblical argument on the one hand and by her most violent reactions to the truth on the other.
The day of the Lord is at hand and i would say has already left "his chamber".
Yet then like others but for different reasons reject the truth of what is called the rapture but which I believe should be called the translation of the Bride BEFORE the outpouring of Gods wrath upon the earth and the manifestation of the antichrist .
The "SPIRIT of the antichrist" is already abroad and can be found in the most surprising places. and is not Romes monopoly either .
The Jews made the same mistake and counted the coming of the Messiah both as to the suffering and the glory as one event and still do it seems .
The church is making the same mistake and counting it all as one event . When scripture clearly proves there are two.
The first FOR His Bride ,the second WITH His bride.
The great error that is held is that if you are BORNagain then all will be 'raptured' and be in the bride. That too cannot be upheld by all scripture .
For there will be people saved BEFORE and people saved after and they will be principally the Jews .
Those who were not READY (but saved or BORNagain) will be tried in the fire of the persecution of the antichrist .
The church that was neither hot or cold if they did not repent would be spewed out of Gods mouth into "great tribulation"
The great tribulation is the reign of the antichrist now held back by the Bride and the outpouring of Gods wrath upon the earth. Which if God " had not shortened the days NO ONE WOULD BE SAVED "

In Christ
gerald
 
#47
Like many others you are mixing truth with error .
We are indeed in a reverse reformation and that which was beyond all reasonable doubt proved to be the false teachings of the Roman church by biblical argument on the one hand and by her most violent reactions to the truth on the other.
The day of the Lord is at hand and i would say has already left "his chamber".
Yet then like others but for different reasons reject the truth of what is called the rapture but which I believe should be called the translation of the Bride BEFORE the outpouring of Gods wrath upon the earth and the manifestation of the antichrist .
The "SPIRIT of the antichrist" is already abroad and can be found in the most surprising places. and is not Romes monopoly either .
The Jews made the same mistake and counted the coming of the Messiah both as to the suffering and the glory as one event and still do it seems .
The church is making the same mistake and counting it all as one event . When scripture clearly proves there are two.
The first FOR His Bride ,the second WITH His bride.
The great error that is held is that if you are BORNagain then all will be 'raptured' and be in the bride. That too cannot be upheld by all scripture .
For there will be people saved BEFORE and people saved after and they will be principally the Jews .
Those who were not READY (but saved or BORNagain) will be tried in the fire of the persecution of the antichrist .
The church that was neither hot or cold if they did not repent would be spewed out of Gods mouth into "great tribulation"
The great tribulation is the reign of the antichrist now held back by the Bride and the outpouring of Gods wrath upon the earth. Which if God " had not shortened the days NO ONE WOULD BE SAVED "

In Christ
gerald
Amen! (y)
 
#49
"Experience" may be too broad a term. They may "witness" the wrath of God but it won't befall them as they are sealed, Rev 7:3, which states don't do harm to anything until they're sealed. They will only be overcome and killed by the AC, just like the Two Witnesses, but not killed because of the wrath of God.
That is an excellent thought and I have no problem with it at all.

I am thinking that since they will not accept the "mark" of the beast they will not be able to buy food etc. I understand what you are saying, but IMO what happens to them while alive during the Tribulation will not be good. The A/C will be trying to hunt them and kill them and if no one steps up to help them they will be doomed. Although that is from the A/C, it all comes from the judgment of God on the wicked lost who inturn take out their wrath on God's children. It seems to to me that wrath is wrath no matter who it comes from.
 
#50
That is an excellent thought and I have no problem with it at all.

I am thinking that since they will not accept the "mark" of the beast they will not be able to buy food etc. I understand what you are saying, but IMO what happens to them while alive during the Tribulation will not be good. The A/C will be trying to hunt them and kill them and if no one steps up to help them they will be doomed. Although that is from the A/C, it all comes from the judgment of God on the wicked lost who inturn take out their wrath on God's children. It seems to to me that wrath is wrath no matter who it comes from.
Man's wrath is from the point of hatred towards God. God's wrath is towards unrepentant, prideful sinners. God's wrath is not to His, ever, 1 Thess 5:9. That's a very important difference and can't be mingled else we make God out to be evil, which people do anyhow, always quoting Job as their lot in life.
 
#51
Man's wrath is from the point of hatred towards God. God's wrath is towards unrepentant, prideful sinners. God's wrath is not to His, ever, 1 Thess 5:9. That's a very important difference and can't be mingled else we make God out to be evil, which people do anyhow, always quoting Job as their lot in life.
I agree completely.
 
#52
"Can you be saved after the rapture?? Does the mark of the beast cancel salvation? Better not get that mark.." These are the type of questions that are ask that the false belief of futurism brings. A fairy tale novel. And I believe honest questions from what this prophetic belief teaches. But know this, it was Created by Jesuits, to counter the belief that believers were standing on during the reformation and then after. That is, the seat of antichrist resides in Rome. Popery is ANTICHRIST! Futuristic prophecy takes u away from seeing that. Takes u away from seeing Christs church biggest enemy! And is one way it brings "Protestants" back to Rome. The Day of the Lord is Christ second coming. Not two separate 2nd comings with a secret catching away or rapture. It's one event! The LAST trump! 1Cor15 and Rev10.. Futurism promotes the lie of Zionism as well.. The Promise was to the SEED of Abraham.. Who is Christ! And those in Christ.. And heirs according to the promise! Those who are of faith, like faithful Abraham..
2 Thessolonians 2:8-12 makes it clear that if a person has heard the gospel and refused Jesus Christ and then misses the Rapture, he can not then be saved and is doomed.
 
#53
That is an excellent thought and I have no problem with it at all.

I am thinking that since they will not accept the "mark" of the beast they will not be able to buy food etc. I understand what you are saying, but IMO what happens to them while alive during the Tribulation will not be good. The A/C will be trying to hunt them and kill them and if no one steps up to help them they will be doomed. Although that is from the A/C, it all comes from the judgment of God on the wicked lost who inturn take out their wrath on God's children. It seems to to me that wrath is wrath no matter who it comes from.
The wrath of men we need not fear at all for one day it will be as an honour on our breast to have bourn it .
The wrath of God however no man can endure though he will if he does not repent suffer it forever.,
They are not the same at all .

If you look at the life of Paul I see nowhere where he did not suffer.
Indeed he was told at the very beginning of his conversion that he would suffer much .
If you look at the Psalms David was not protected from suffering and many of his psalms were cries unto God in the midst of his suffering .
"They who live Godly in Christ Jesus SHALL suffer persecution"
The UK and perhaps the USA has not had to endure such things for centuries .
and christians in these countries have been led to believe never will.
If things go on as they are . Then all that is going to change .

in Christ
gerald
 
#54
Man's wrath is from the point of hatred towards God. God's wrath is towards unrepentant, prideful sinners. God's wrath is not to His, ever, 1 Thess 5:9. That's a very important difference and can't be mingled else we make God out to be evil, which people do anyhow, always quoting Job as their lot in life.
Job was trialed. A trial is not wrath and not evil of God. It is like God putting the devil in Eden. God trialed Adam and Eve. No evil in being tested.

A strong argument can be made for Christians no longer needing to be tested as they have already passed the test. But I would say we are worse off then Job, Adam and Eve. God knows we know we are His and are able to live with His grace purely...being sufficient for us. Trust building has moved up a few notches. But so too has our ability to sway God's heart / get His ear and help better on our needs and wants.

Basically suffering is confusing as hell :).
 
#55
Popery is ANTICHRIST!
Lol. The Pope teaches us to be good ambassadors of Jesus and he lifts up His name. How many preachers do you know driving around in a small fiat :D and living in a modest guesthouse.

Catholic dogma teaches the trinity and that without Jesus we cannot enter heaven.

You need to read Acts 5:38 and Matt 7:16.

The anti christ will hate anyone lifting Jesus up. Especially to a Godlike status.
 
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#56
Job was trialed. A trial is not wrath and not evil of God. It is like God putting the devil in Eden. God trialed Adam and Eve. No evil in being tested.

A strong argument can be made for Christians no longer needing to be tested as they have already passed the test. But I would say we are worse off then Job, Adam and Eve. God knows we know we are His and are able to live with His grace purely...being sufficient for us. Trust building has moved up a few notches. But so too has our ability to sway God's heart / get His ear and help better on our needs and wants.

Basically suffering is confusing as hell :).
This will not do!

There is no argument at all to say we will not be tried as in proved in the fire.
But we are not 'tested' nor was Adam and Eve .
They too were to be proved or tried like gold .
So too were the children of Israel where God "proved " them in the wilderness that they might learn that "man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God"
Adam and eve were proved also that they too might learn that they could not LIVE by every tree" that was good to eat in the garden" But by that word that went forth from the mouth of God as to what was good to eat and therefore to do and what was evil to eat and therefore to do , Thus by GODS Knowledge of what was good and what was evil (and was in very truth) they LIVED .
It was the rejection of Gods Word and believing the corruption that changed the truth into a lie by adding "not" that they died because they now did that which was good in their own eyes For Eve " SAW that it was good to eat"

When we are BORNagain we are born of the Word and the Spirit and we are meant to ;LIVE by the Word and the Spirit .
we are not tested or tempted by God at all . which is what you and many others are implying . For "God tempts no one " But we are tempted by our own lusts .
But "blessed is the man who endures temptation" Jesus was tempted in the wilderness and was proved also and what was the first answer he gave the devil?and the temptation?
"Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God"
and how did the devil start with every temptation?
"IF thou be the Son of God ......................................"
Thus the subtlety of the temptation was to JUSTIFY HIMSELF .
This he refused to do .Nor ever did even on the cross where now it was by the mouth of men "if thou be the Son of God..........."
The JUST shall live by faith..................."
God does not allow the trials of our faith to ruin us nor are they meant to ,but that we may rise on the wave of them .
Job had HEARD of God by his own confession . on what he had heard of God, had so transformed his life that God could point to him as a fine example of a servant of God .
Yet he had a secret fear "my fear has come upon me" Despite the calamities and day of evil " he did not sin against God with his lips" Nor then his heart for out of the heart a man speaketh.
Nor did he listen to his wife who said" curse God and die" or in other words commit suicide.Unlike Adam who listened and obeyed his wife .
But continued believing God trusting in His Word and holding fast to his integrity and his faith .
Despite all his 'freinds ' bringing every religious argument against him to prove he had sinned .
When he knew he had not.
In the end what happened?
God made himself known and began to reveal himself to Job . So much so that like Issiah and others saw that despite their integrity and righteousness which was indisputable .In the light of Gods righteousness ,JOb repented in dust and ashes .
and confessed I have heard of thee now mine eyes seeth thee.
"Perfect love casteth out all fear "
When he SAW the Lord there was no longer any fear in him of the past present and future.
He confessed that in his flesh he will see God and though he lay dead in the grave .God will call and I will answer .
He now knew that his redeemer liveth"!
So in what way are we worse off than JOB?
God allowed the devil to do his work but limited what he could do and no man is tempted beyond his strength but with the temptation gives a way of escape .
That escape is Jesus Christ
For while many will confess to the struggle of Paul very few it seems go to the end of his argument which concludes "thanks be unto God who giveth us the victory through Our Lord Jesus Christ."
Thus Job was justified by the Lord Himself and he did not need to justify himself or prove himself that he was what he was .
If we are truly of God then let God do the justifying for we are justified in Christ and by faith in Christ.
but IF we sin we have an advocate with the father . Many take that as a the let out clause but thats not Johns emphasise at all .
If we walk by faith we walk then in the Spirit and" if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh ."
Jobs suffering then was the means to perfect him .
Though we need to eb careful not to think like some religionists that there is virtue in suffering and have and some still do go out of their way to 'suffer' by the afliction of others or self inflicted .THAT is folly of the highest order .

For according to the Lord "healing is the childrens bread"
It is good to know we are his . It is even better to know that he knows we are his .
and while it is good to know he is mine .
It is even better to know that we are His .
We cannot sway Gods heart to do something he does not want/will to do already . and if He does not or will not it would not matter if every body starved themselves to death to 'sway Gods heart' he would not be moved at all.
Rereading your post a few times I can see I may have misunderstood what you intended to say . I hope then you will bare with my post as adding to the thought of it.
I would also like to add .That God does not nor has promised to give us what we want but" shall supply all of our needs according to his riches in glory"
and while he did say to a few "what do you want me to do for you"
It was to a very few he said it and knew already they would glorify God in their answer . and it was what they needed most in any case in what they answered.


in Christ
gerald
 
#57
Lol. The Pope teaches us to be good ambassadors of Jesus and he lifts up His name. How many preachers do you know driving around in a small fiat :D and living in a modest guesthouse.

Catholic dogma teaches the trinity and that without Jesus we cannot enter heaven.

You need to read Acts 5:38 and Matt 7:16.

The anti christ will hate anyone lifting Jesus up. Especially to a Godlike status.
So you find the truthful statement about popery being antichrist, to be funny? Ok! Ambassador for who? The false Christ up, NOT the true messiah! Because he lives, what u call modest makes him what? Holy?! Humble?! And he teaches the trinity and you cannot enter heaven without Jesus? Really?? And prove from their DOGMA that's the case. Popery claims infallibility! Popery Claims to be the vicar of Christ! Teaches, that through the participation of their sacraments, they receive the graces "necessary" for salvation! Teaches Mary to be immaculate and the Queen goddess! Promotes prayers to the dead and idolatry! Roman Catholicism contradicts the bible in almost every way. And popery has murdered more true Christians over the centuries, than any other institution on the planet! And to hit the core issue, how is one justified? Popery is antichrist and an enemy to the true teachings of Christ.
 
#58
So you find the truthful statement about popery being antichrist, to be funny? Ok! Ambassador for who? The false Christ up, NOT the true messiah! Because he lives, what u call modest makes him what? Holy?! Humble?! And he teaches the trinity and you cannot enter heaven without Jesus? Really?? And prove from their DOGMA that's the case. Popery claims infallibility! Popery Claims to be the vicar of Christ! Teaches, that through the participation of their sacraments, they receive the graces "necessary" for salvation! Teaches Mary to be immaculate and the Queen goddess! Promotes prayers to the dead and idolatry! Roman Catholicism contradicts the bible in almost every way. And popery has murdered more true Christians over the centuries, than any other institution on the planet! And to hit the core issue, how is one justified? Popery is antichrist and an enemy to the true teachings of Christ.
I remind you:

Common courtesy
Rule 2.1 Common courtesy and civil dialogue is expected from all participants. Common courtesy is a generally understood concept and too broad to fully define here. In short, if you have doubt on whether you should say something, DON'T!
 
#59
I remind you:

Common courtesy
Rule 2.1
Common courtesy and civil dialogue is expected from all participants. Common courtesy is a generally understood concept and too broad to fully define here. In short, if you have doubt on whether you should say something, DON'T!
You can speak the truth in an offensive manner and it is the offensive manner that is used an excuse to reject the truth .
You can also speak the truth in a manner that is not offensive and with the right motive and then the truth is the offence.
If then I speak the truth and people are offended at the truth am I to stop speaking? Or be stopped ?

Just asking.

in Christ
gerald
 
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