Scriptures versus Experiences

[Musicmaster]

Justin Peters nails this one:

I've been around many "experience junkies," and it's like a narcotic to some...at the exclusion and even denial of scripture!

MM

 

[Major]

Justin Peters nails this one:

I've been around many "experience junkies," and it's like a narcotic to some...at the exclusion and even denial of scripture!

MM

Experiences and dreams and visions are all selective and open to all kinds of interpretations. In other words, we can make them say whtever we want the and there in lies the danger.

One of the most common phrases I hear believers say is “God spoke to me” or “God told me to do such and such.”

All too often, “God spoke to me” is given priority in a person’s life over what the Bible actually says. What is troublesome is, “God whispered to me” cannot be compared to, “as the Scriptures say.” Don’t get me wrong. God does speak to us in ways we sometimes can’t explain, but when our personal experience has more weight than the Word of God, we can fall into some serious error. Our experience is subjective. The Word of God is objective truth. Human opinion is subjective truth, but because its subjective truth, it is subject to error. Objective truth, on the other hand, is always true and cannot be changed.

 

[Papa Smurf]

...when our personal experience has more weight than the Word of God, we can fall into some serious error.

Hi Major, I agree, and our first parents (sadly) proved your point to all of us in very short order .. e.g. Genesis 2:16-17; Genesis 3:1-7.

Musicmaster, I appreciate your thread creation style. The use of video shorts makes them interesting to be sure (and perfect for me right now because I've had so much less time to check out a thread, join it and post in it over the last couple of weeks). So, thank you for these

God bless you both!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[LearningToLetGo]

when our personal experience has more weight than the Word of God, we can fall into some serious error

I know of at least one significant Christianity offshoot that does exactly this. They wrote an entire new book into the Bible supporting their claims.

How can one have a conversation with someone who genuinely believes in a case like this?

 

[Musicmaster]

Hi Major, I agree, and our first parents (sadly) proved your point to all of us in very short order .. e.g. Genesis 2:16-17; Genesis 3:1-7.

Musicmaster, I appreciate your thread creation style. The use of video shorts makes them interesting to be sure (and perfect for me right now because I've had so much less time to check out a thread, join it and post in it over the last couple of weeks). So, thank you for these

God bless you both!!

--Papa Smurf

Thank you, brother.

I count it a privilege to share with you all.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I know of at least one significant Christianity offshoot that does exactly this. They wrote an entire new book into the Bible supporting their claims.

How can one have a conversation with someone who genuinely believes in a case like this?

The task is not an easy one, because unless you can build up the scriptures in their hearts and minds as being supreme over their experiences, beliefs and feelings, they will remain resolute in their practice of letting other things stand in the way of the authority of God's word.

You must also beware, because many of them will give lip service to the authority of scripture, and yet elevate their experiences and feelings above the absolute authority of scripture.

So being firm, ant yet loving, being authoritative from the foundation of scripture, and yet willing to listen to their experiences and feelings, that is when the doors are more open to share with them a reinstatement of the power and authority of the word of God.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

2 Timothy 3:15-17
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Experiences and feelings are never said to possess these qualities, so what REALLY is the attraction to those experiences and feelings? What can they offer? Confirmation? No. Affirmation? No. Those are internal things easily fooled by our senses and mental aspirations.

MM

 

[Major]

I know of at least one significant Christianity offshoot that does exactly this. They wrote an entire new book into the Bible supporting their claims.

How can one have a conversation with someone who genuinely believes in a case like this?

IF you are talking about the Mormons..........then that is NOT an offshoot at all. It is a completly false religion unto itself.

We must know what the Scriptures say before we can witness to those who work hard to believe what the Scriptures DO NOT say.

 

[BibleLover]

I grew up in a Pentacostal church environment, and it took me a long time to understand the proper relationship between Scripture and experience. As I matured in the faith, I outgrew my reliance on experience to gauge my status with God. Experience has a place in our relationship with God but not the first place. That's where God's Word belongs. Faith, facts, feelings is the order in which we operate--FAITH in God, the FACTS in Scripture, and the FEELINGS of love, joy, and fellowship we enjoy in our relationship with God.

 

[Major]

I grew up in a Pentacostal church environment, and it took me a long time to understand the proper relationship between Scripture and experience. As I matured in the faith, I outgrew my reliance on experience to gauge my status with God. Experience has a place in our relationship with God but not the first place. That's where God's Word belongs. Faith, facts, feelings is the order in which we operate--FAITH in God, the FACTS in Scripture, and the FEELINGS of love, joy, and fellowship we enjoy in our relationship with God.

Right there with you brother!!!

Worship in the Pentacostal religion is simply going from one emotional experience to another one. It is almost like taking drugs!!!!!

We used to jump and run around and speak in tongues always trying to have an experience that was better than last weeks service.

The sermons were nothing but a man shouting and yelling with absolutly NO BIBLICAL substance at all.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

If someone has a powerful spiritual experience, be it a dream, waking vision or drug-induced hallucination, I don't think it's possible to talk them away from that with words. The better path is to reconcile the experience within scripture and thus give both deeper and richer meaning.

 

[Musicmaster]

If someone has a powerful spiritual experience, be it a dream, waking vision or drug-induced hallucination, I don't think it's possible to talk them away from that with words. The better path is to reconcile the experience within scripture and thus give both deeper and richer meaning.

So, essentially, those who claim they had a deeply spiritual experience through out-of-control convulsions on the floor, barking like dogs, oinking like pigs, baying like sheep, whatever, how would you show to them from scripture that what they were doing is not from God? Is it from the silence of scripture on that matter, or is there something else at which you would point them? It obviously doesn't do any good to say to them that what they were exhibiting is demon possession and/or influences, so what's the effective way of bringing them around to reality?

MM

 

[LearningToLetGo]

So, essentially, those who claim they had a deeply spiritual experience through out-of-control convulsions on the floor, barking like dogs, oinking like pigs, baying like sheep, whatever, how would you show to them from scripture that what they were doing is not from God?

Why would I automatically assume these experiences weren't from God?

It obviously doesn't do any good to say to them that what they were exhibiting is demon possession and/or influences, so what's the effective way of bringing them around to reality?

It is true that such experiences could be demonic in origin. They could also just be the power of suggestion. The best metric is to observe the effect of this experience on the person receiving them. Do they draw closer to God or do they shy away? Do they embrace their fellows in ever growing love or do they become embittered? I think context matters. Ultimately I am very hesitant to squash what may very well be the Holy Spirit at work unless given compelling reason to do so.

 

[Musicmaster]

Why would I automatically assume these experiences weren't from God?

It is true that such experiences could be demonic in origin. They could also just be the power of suggestion. The best metric is to observe the effect of this experience on the person receiving them. Do they draw closer to God or do they shy away? Do they embrace their fellows in ever growing love or do they become embittered? I think context matters. Ultimately I am very hesitant to squash what may very well be the Holy Spirit at work unless given compelling reason to do so.

You asked a very good question.

What I will do is to argue from silence (somewhat), and point out what contexts such things DO manifest: The scriptures give no examples whatsoever of true believers convulsing, being "slain in the spirit" falling over from some dude waving his coat against them, sounding like animals, their bodies taken over by Holy Spirit to do things such as run around the building, gyrating around out of control, etc. The instances when we DO see those types of things manifest, it's, as you said, in the context of demonic possession. I cannot recall one instance of Holy Spirit animating someone beyond their own control. The Spirit leads us, guides us, speaks into us, but never taking over control of our bodies. People can and do give over control of their bodies to demons, who willingly take control, but that is not how the Lord operates.

Additionally, if we introduce into our own understanding any level of doubt about observed manifestations such as these, we then fail to properly deal with such in the lives of who we may or may not assume are our brothers and/or sisters.

Granted, some of these manifestations are a matter of mind control and power of suggestion from various circus acts that have learned the subtle art of manipulating the minds of those around them who are more susceptible to such. I saw a video yesterday of some guy in the mall selectively finding what looked like a girl more easily manipulated and prone to crowd participation and crowd pleasing, and he allegedly got her to forget her own name. The human mind being the vastly complex organ that it is, coupled with an even more complex spirit and soul within, we can't say for sure how those mechanisms function, but there are some who have learned to manipulate those who are willing to give themselves over to suggestions and the desire to "play along."

Your thoughts?

MM

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Your thoughts?

I decided long ago that I would never get between a man and God. This means that I won't apply purity tests or sincerity tests or any other kind of test. If a person says they talk to God then I take them at their word.

 

[Musicmaster]

I decided long ago that I would never get between a man and God. This means that I won't apply purity tests or sincerity tests or any other kind of test. If a person says they talk to God then I take them at their word.

Hmm. Well, if we assume that every manifestation people exhibit is of God, and that's the justification for never becoming involved to challenge those people to test the spirits who exhibit what appears to be demonic, as scripture commands, then are we really being a servant of the Lord?

MM

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Hmm. Well, if we assume that every manifestation people exhibit is of God, and that's the justification for never becoming involved to challenge those people to test the spirits who exhibit what appears to be demonic, as scripture commands, then are we really being a servant of the Lord?

MM

I'm not saying that every manifestation people exhibit is of God. I'm only saying that if a person believes their manifestation to be of God then I accept what they say. That does not compel me to believe them. It's just that my challenging them is not likely to achieve anything except causing them to dig in their heels further.

 

[Musicmaster]

I'm not saying that every manifestation people exhibit is of God. I'm only saying that if a person believes their manifestation to be of God then I accept what they say. That does not compel me to believe them. It's just that my challenging them is not likely to achieve anything except causing them to dig in their heels further.

Ah, ok. Thanks for the clarification.

As for me, when I see someone manifesting something that clearly is not aligned with scripture for what they say is of God, I will challenge their behavior, because there's nothing new about demons doing as scripture says, which is to deceive. If they dig in their heels, then it's on them.

Have a great one.

MM

 

[crossnote]

Is Paul here, speaking in terms of 'experience'?...

Philippians 3:9-11 ESV
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith- [10] that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, [11] that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

I'm not sure having 'experiences' is so much the issue as seeking after them.
Similarly, do we seek after the gifts or the Gift Giver?