Synagogue Readings in Jesus' Time

[Musicmaster]

I had some discussion with a fellow Israelite about biblical texts used in the synagogues during the time of Christ. His take on it all was more idealistic than realistic, in that they allegedly used the Hebrew texts in the synagogues all around the Mediterranean, throughout Israel, and over into Asia Minor and beyond.

I tried to explain to him that such could not be the case because the common tongue, even in Jerusalem at that time, was Greek.

He insisted that they read from Hebrew scrolls, which makes no sense given the differences in expressive precision between Hebrew and Greek. The idea of religious leaders reading Hebrew and speaking in Greek on the fly, without first writing out a translation for themselves, that makes no sense whatsoever. That is because very few, if any, would have had the massive amount of skill needed to translate on the fly like that without having to think through the Greek they would speak from the imagery of the Hebrew.

It's not at all easy, and I doubt any rabbi back then had that kind of skill, AND, assuming there was such men, each one would speak different Greek terms in relation to what they were reading, with no two readings being the same since the imprecision of Hebrew would have added to the difficulty for speaking exactly what the picturesque Hebrew language was implying, alluding to, and many other concepts that adds to the difficulties in translation.

 

[crossnote]

in that they allegedly used the Hebrew texts in the synagogues all around the Mediterranean, throughout Israel, and over into Asia Minor and beyond.

If this was the case you'd think they would have found some Hebrew fragments/manuscripts by now.

 

[Musicmaster]

Good reasoning. My Israeli fellow on the other website claimed that Hebrew scrolls had been found in ancient synagogues from that era, and that he, therefore, believed that Hebrew was the language spoken and read in synagogues.

This love affair he has with Hebrew has obviously clouded his judgement, because he also has some strange beliefs about the 24 elders of Revelation 1, 4 and beyond. His trust of modern translations (such as NIV, NAS, ASV, etc.) of the Bible that corrupt scripture texts such as Revelation 1:6, 5:10, drove him to believe that those elders are the "divine council" in Genesis and other places rather than representative of the Church, which the KJV and NKJV make quite clear in their translation of the Textus Receptus.

He also harbors strange beliefs about the tribulation, the timing of things within and without that book in places like 1 Thessalonians, his eschatology is so scrambled and diluted that I gave up trying to figure it all out from the microcosm within his mind.

MM

 

[bobinfaith]

Good morning, Musicmaster;

It's good to see you here and thank you for sharing Synagogue Readings in Jesus' Time

I'm learning to be more patient with men and women who mix error with what they've studied, the tools, resources, languages and texts used in the study of God.

The Israeli fellow has a good start in his zeal to know and understand the Hebrew, Bible and Godly teachings. He just needs direction for further study before proclaiming what is and what isn't.

Like I shared, I'm becoming a more patient man with disciples as well as myself who remain a student of reading and listening more.

I have to scoot for now but would like to come back and respond further to your thread.

God bless you and your entire family, brother.

 

[crossnote]

My Israeli fellow on the other website claimed that Hebrew scrolls had been found in ancient synagogues from that era, and that he, therefore, believed that Hebrew was the language spoken and read in synagogues.

Again, it's strange that Hebrew scrolls were left intact, but the best we can do with Paul and John's letters, circulated amongst the Churches is to come up with a fragment or two.

 

[Musicmaster]

Again, it's strange that Hebrew scrolls were left intact, but the best we can do with Paul and John's letters, circulated amongst the Churches is to come up with a fragment or two.

His point in all that was to downplay the Septuagint as the material from which Jesus read when revealing His Deity, and over which they tried to have Him executed.

The Septuagint is my text of choice compared to the Masoretic texts that our modern Bibles use for the OT translation. I have found that the differences point to rabbinical tampering. You see, the Masoretic texts were translated in about the 5th to 6th century AD. The Septuagint was translated in about the 3rd to 4th century BC from earlier texts of Hebrew than what were found in synagogues. The rabbinical Masoretic texts appear to have been manipulated in places, which is why I refer over to the Septuagint rather than to trust the KJV OT.

This all gets very deep into historical materials and critiques, but suffice it to say that the KJV for the words spoken by the 24 elders of Revelation, that render those men as being representative of the redeemed and raptured Church is far more credible than what is seen in the NIV and other newer translations that lay far too heavy reliance upon some texts that, although older than much of the Textus Receptus, are also known to have been edited in numerous places throughout, and that disagree with one another FAR more than what is seen in the Textus Receptus for the NT KJV.

MM

 

[Origen]

If this was the case you'd think they would have found some Hebrew fragments/manuscripts by now.

They have. Dozens and dozens of fragments (and a few nearly whole manuscripts) have been found at Qumran and other places as well.

On the left hand side of the page below you will see "Browse by site." You will see listed six sites.
1. Qumran
2. Wadi Murabba’at
3. Nahal Hever
4. Masada
5. Wadi Daliyeh
6. Wadi Sdeir

The Dead Sea Scrolls - Explore the Archive

The Leon Levy Dead Sea Scrolls Digital Library offers an exceptional encounter with antiquity. Using the world's most advanced imaging technology, the Digital Library preserves thousands of scroll fragments, including the oldest known copies of biblical texts, now accessible to the...

www.deadseascrolls.org.il

There is also the Nash Papyrus.

Hebrew Manuscripts : Nash Papyrus

The Nash Papyrus is a second-century BCE fragment containing the text of the Ten Commandments followed by the Šemaʿ. Prior

cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk

And there is the Silver Ketef Hinnom Scrolls. This tiny scroll is the oldest known fragment of the O.T.

Ketef Hinnom scrolls - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[crossnote]

His point in all that was to downplay the Septuagint as the material from which Jesus read when revealing His Deity, and over which they tried to have Him executed.

My point would be,'he needs to bring forth some evidence to back up his claim about Hebrew being used in the Synagogues. As far as I understand most the Jewish population was communicating in Greek at the time.

 

[crossnote]

They have. Dozens and dozens of fragments (and a few nearly whole manuscripts) have been found at Qumran and other places as well.

On the left hand side of the page below you will see "Browse by site." You will see listed six sites.
1. Qumran
2. Wadi Murabba’at
3. Nahal Hever
4. Masada
5. Wadi Daliyeh
6. Wadi Sdeir

The Dead Sea Scrolls - Explore the Archive

The Leon Levy Dead Sea Scrolls Digital Library offers an exceptional encounter with antiquity. Using the world's most advanced imaging technology, the Digital Library preserves thousands of scroll fragments, including the oldest known copies of biblical texts, now accessible to the...

www.deadseascrolls.org.il

There is also the Nash Papyrus.

Hebrew Manuscripts : Nash Papyrus

The Nash Papyrus is a second-century BCE fragment containing the text of the Ten Commandments followed by the Šemaʿ. Prior

cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk

And there is the Silver Ketef Hinnom Scrolls. This tiny scroll is the oldest known fragment of the O.T.

Ketef Hinnom scrolls - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Strange, that Nash Papyrus looks suspiciously like Greek to me.
The DSS looks Hebrew and the Ketif looks unintelligible.

 

[Origen]

My point would be,'he needs to bring forth some evidence to back up his claim about Hebrew being used in the Synagogues. As far as I understand most the Jewish population was communicating in Greek at the time.

I am sorry I misunderstood your meaning.

Strange, that Nash Papyrus looks suspiciously like Greek to me.

There is no doubt that it is Hebrew.

 

[Musicmaster]

My point would be,'he needs to bring forth some evidence to back up his claim about Hebrew being used in the Synagogues. As far as I understand most the Jewish population was communicating in Greek at the time.

Yes. That's why it's known among scholars that because the common people were speaking Greek long before the time of Christ's coming in the flesh, the idea of the synagogues remaining Hebrew, a tongue most of the people no longer knew apart from a few religious terms and phraseology, is simply not a rational assumption.

MM

 

[bobinfaith]

I had some discussion with a fellow Israelite about biblical texts used in the synagogues during the time of Christ. His take on it all was more idealistic than realistic, in that they allegedly used the Hebrew texts in the synagogues all around the Mediterranean, throughout Israel, and over into Asia Minor and beyond. I tried to explain to him that such could not be the case because the common tongue, even in Jerusalem at that time, was Greek. He insisted that they read from Hebrew scrolls, which makes no sense given the differences in expressive precision between Hebrew and Greek. The idea of religious leaders reading Hebrew and speaking in Greek on the fly, without first writing out a translation for themselves, that makes no sense whatsoever. That is because very few, if any, would have had the massive amount of skill needed to translate on the fly like that without having to think through the Greek they would speak from the imagery of the Hebrew. It's not at all easy, and I doubt any rabbi back then had that kind of skill, AND, assuming there was such men, each one would speak different Greek terms in relation to what they were reading, with no two readings being the same since the imprecision of Hebrew would have added to the difficulty for speaking exactly what the picturesque Hebrew language was implying, alluding to, and many other concepts that adds to the difficulties in translation.

Good reasoning. My Israeli fellow on the other website claimed that Hebrew scrolls had been found in ancient synagogues from that era, and that he, therefore, believed that Hebrew was the language spoken and read in synagogues. This love affair he has with Hebrew has obviously clouded his judgement, because he also has some strange beliefs about the 24 elders of Revelation 1, 4 and beyond. His trust of modern translations (such as NIV, NAS, ASV, etc.) of the Bible that corrupt scripture texts such as Revelation 1:6, 5:10, drove him to believe that those elders are the "divine council" in Genesis and other places rather than representative of the Church, which the KJV and NKJV make quite clear in their translation of the Textus Receptus. He also harbors strange beliefs about the tribulation, the timing of things within and without that book in places like 1 Thessalonians, his eschatology is so scrambled and diluted that I gave up trying to figure it all out from the microcosm within his mind.
MM

Good morning, Musicmaster;

The Septuagint is the proper reading used in the synagogues as the Church reached more Gentiles. Give your fellow Israeli brother A for Effort. His argument should allow for the Lord and continued study to reveal these teachings from the overwhelming texts out there from then to now.

I feel the Lord may be using you to help this chap, if he has open listening ears.

God bless you, brother.