Here's an interesting video for discussion:
MM
MM
The Doctrine of Churchianity
- Thread starter Musicmaster
- Start date
It's humbling to see fellow believers who are facing persecutions to the point of death, and yet still smile and laugh in life and have such great love for the Lord.
This is part of the reason why I spoke strongly in another thread about the need for all of you attend and support an institutional model need to prepare for the day soon to come when the hateful Left begins their attack on that model and its people on account of it being so public and "in their faces." They aren't going to put up with it much longer those churchianity groups that stand against their perversions and corruptions. They fully accept their bigotry and hatemongering so long as it all is opposed to God and His Christ.
MM
This is part of the reason why I spoke strongly in another thread about the need for all of you attend and support an institutional model need to prepare for the day soon to come when the hateful Left begins their attack on that model and its people on account of it being so public and "in their faces." They aren't going to put up with it much longer those churchianity groups that stand against their perversions and corruptions. They fully accept their bigotry and hatemongering so long as it all is opposed to God and His Christ.
MM
The purpose for the gathering of believers:
1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Edify one another... That is a skill I have never seen anyone master while looking at the backs of the heads of others.
In answer to that, I've heard various excuses for why the structure is as it is in traditional churchianity, but none of those excuses sufficed to justify the theft of our birthright for fellowship in the main gathering. The gods of "order" and "praise and worship" are the most common excuses I have heard offered for disallowing the believers to experience and live out together the things stated in the above verses in the main gathering. Praise in the corporate sense is great, but only as a feature, and corporate worship is also a good feature, but when those are used to bulldoze corporate fellowship out the door, that is utterly unacceptable:
John 4:20-24
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Where it's idealistic to claim that corporate worship is the expression of what Jesus prophesied to that woman, and that the very depths of worship is what's taking place within churchianity in the corporate gathering, that is a stretch I simply cannot accept. The assumption most seem to make, in that they can enter a special purpose room, turn on their "light switch" of worship that is acceptable unto the Father, and then turn it off while leaving...no! The vitality and power of what Jesus describes is a level of worship that simply cannot be contrived by way of just the right mood music and moving words.
Believers the world over have been robbed of their birthright in the corporate gathering of believers. Cell groups and Sunday School classes are poor substitutes for what has been taken from the professing believers in the corporate gathering. After all, many of those men who stand behind that pulpit will never countenance Christ being the One in the limelight. They see it as their job to stand in that limelight, pointing off-stage at Christ, ensuring He stays in His place outside that limelight, so that you, average believer, remain in your place as a mere audience member, having now voice except when called upon to sing, or the occasional "amen" and "preach it, brotha..."
There's lots of good preaching out there, but the body of Christ needs more than just mere band-aids to what has been taken from them in the main gathering of the believers. The collective body of a local expression is the more powerful gathering, and yet the very one the members are not allowed to function toward one another in the life dynamics outlined in the above verses.
MM
1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Edify one another... That is a skill I have never seen anyone master while looking at the backs of the heads of others.
In answer to that, I've heard various excuses for why the structure is as it is in traditional churchianity, but none of those excuses sufficed to justify the theft of our birthright for fellowship in the main gathering. The gods of "order" and "praise and worship" are the most common excuses I have heard offered for disallowing the believers to experience and live out together the things stated in the above verses in the main gathering. Praise in the corporate sense is great, but only as a feature, and corporate worship is also a good feature, but when those are used to bulldoze corporate fellowship out the door, that is utterly unacceptable:
John 4:20-24
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Where it's idealistic to claim that corporate worship is the expression of what Jesus prophesied to that woman, and that the very depths of worship is what's taking place within churchianity in the corporate gathering, that is a stretch I simply cannot accept. The assumption most seem to make, in that they can enter a special purpose room, turn on their "light switch" of worship that is acceptable unto the Father, and then turn it off while leaving...no! The vitality and power of what Jesus describes is a level of worship that simply cannot be contrived by way of just the right mood music and moving words.
Believers the world over have been robbed of their birthright in the corporate gathering of believers. Cell groups and Sunday School classes are poor substitutes for what has been taken from the professing believers in the corporate gathering. After all, many of those men who stand behind that pulpit will never countenance Christ being the One in the limelight. They see it as their job to stand in that limelight, pointing off-stage at Christ, ensuring He stays in His place outside that limelight, so that you, average believer, remain in your place as a mere audience member, having now voice except when called upon to sing, or the occasional "amen" and "preach it, brotha..."
There's lots of good preaching out there, but the body of Christ needs more than just mere band-aids to what has been taken from them in the main gathering of the believers. The collective body of a local expression is the more powerful gathering, and yet the very one the members are not allowed to function toward one another in the life dynamics outlined in the above verses.
MM
Would Paul of Tarsus agree with this?
To satisfy any potential curiosity for my purpose here, my aim in this is to enliven others to shift their vantagepoint to another perspective that is not along the lines of the status quo, but rather, and hopefully, aligned with your Lord and Creator, who does not see things as we see them, but rather from that of His own Perfection. I'm hoping that in seeking His perspective, you will receive from the Lord His ways and His thoughts.
Growth, while stunted within the majority of generic formulations of churchianity, does not grow up spiritual giants. You alone are responsible for your seeking to grow. Going through the motions of churchianity, while harboring the most positive thoughts and beliefs about what is going on in the place where you attend, assuming that God is in it all, keep in mind what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well, and what He said in 1 John 2:27.
MM
Growth, while stunted within the majority of generic formulations of churchianity, does not grow up spiritual giants. You alone are responsible for your seeking to grow. Going through the motions of churchianity, while harboring the most positive thoughts and beliefs about what is going on in the place where you attend, assuming that God is in it all, keep in mind what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well, and what He said in 1 John 2:27.
MM
We need more of this:
so we should close all churches down and tear the building down ? sounds like china
Staff Memo: At last count, in September of 2021, there were over 36,000 Christian denominations worldwide, each with a slightly different take on things. Some are steadfast main stream Christian, following scripture as originally written. Some are what we can classify as fringe, and some are being 'politically correct' and 'politically motivated' to actually undermine main stream Christianity with false doctrines. With that many differing philosophies and teachings, differences of opinion will always be present. The staff at CFS is asking participants in this thread to please consider the belief systems of others and not to post in a manner that makes your own belief system look to others as if it is THE ONLY TRUE belief system.
We have been tolerant thus far, but this Staff Memo should be a wake up call for participants to keep things civil at all times and to share opinions in a way that does not lead to arguing and hard feelings.
Thank you for your cooperation.
23
We have been tolerant thus far, but this Staff Memo should be a wake up call for participants to keep things civil at all times and to share opinions in a way that does not lead to arguing and hard feelings.
Thank you for your cooperation.
23
f61, that was not at all my point.
I always invite others who believe and say that modern churchianity structure and practices are based and rooted within the scriptures, they are totally free to voice their thoughts and references in order to change my mind. I invite that from others.
As the memo stated above, I am in complete agreement that there are many varying beliefs out there, and am completely willing to change my mind to a more convincing viewpoint that's rooted in the solidity of scripture; not tradition, but actual scripture.
Folks are totally free to observe their traditions as they so wish. No problem there, but when the claim is made that any one tradition has solid footing within scripture, THAT is what I need shown to me for verification.
In other words, when someone tells me that scripture defines a legitimate and biblical gathering of believers as being, say, 50+, I will stack that up against what Yahshua said when stating:
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
So, a gathering can be two, and it can be two thousand. Numbers are not what matters so much as the TRUTH being taught, and there being mutual edification, as stated within scripture:
1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
That doesn't happen when the main gathering (coming together) relegates all the congregation to silence as a passive audience in the main gathering of believers. If churchianity fosters the things outlined in the above verse, and others not quoted along this same line of thought, then I welcome other people's thoughts on this.
Granted, many people prefer to remain silent and non-functional as fellow believers in the gathering with others. That's fine with me. Many are not prepared to be functional believers. I've known men who sat for 70+ years in pews, having heard thousands of sermons, and still never having any desire to become functional believers who could or wanted to be functional believers toward other professing believers. They are not those to whom I seek to address with this.
I'm mostly reaching out to those who seek the means by which they can become a blessing to others by functioning in the giftings they have been given by the Lord to pour out into fellow believers and unbelievers alike. The gathering of believers should be a symbiosis of fellowship, and those who don't want that are perfectly free to pursue whatever they so desire.
It's a real blessing to me to converse with those who seek more than what looking at the backs of other people's heads can offer.
WARNING: Generally speaking, TRUE fellowship is dangerous. Those who are not prepared to become transparent and open books to fellow believers...need not look into this at all. Those who harbor secret sins they don't want to eradicate from their lives need not seek conversation along this line, because TRUE fellowship can only happen in a meaningful way among those who are open and honest. There are safer forms of "fellowship" for those who harbor secret sins...where one is not required to share, nor be an open book to others; where they can fade into the woodwork of the surrounding building materials and never be called upon to function in any way other than to sing praises and responsive readings on cue and tempo...and hopefully in tune...
So, no, f61, tearing it all down is not at all what I am endorsing. Any seeming undertones of hardline thinking assumed into my words are strictly the creations of the reader, not my intent. I prefer to be asked if there is some measure of need for clarification, which I am always happy to provide.
MM