The elemental spiritual forces of this world

Apr 11, 2014
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#1
Colossians 2:
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

What are these " elemental spiritual forces of this world"? NKJV translates this as basic principles of the world.
Could we list some of these?
 
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#2
As we do this we should be considering also the pointed question a few verses later in Col 2:20-23:

If you have died with Christ to the If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of menof the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men
 
Amens/Likes: Cturtle
Nov 18, 2011
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#4
Interesting, am still on going, looking at it, but my first impression is:

Forces, akin to a warfare:
1. Divine forces
2. the Rebellious forces
3. Man forces (indeed, Man can "try philosophically" , disassociate with the Divine and the Rebellion (although indirectly it benefit the Rebellious intentions)

my first impression:

I would associate the "elemental spiritual forces" to no. 2". more so than of no. 3 "Man-related".

in the same manner as the concept of "Principalities and power", etc, found in various verses"

a related bible study link:
https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Element-Elemental-Spirit

Reading further the related Colossian verses/ chapter:

COL 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
COL 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
COL 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
COL 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
COL 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
COL 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

COL 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

and am just so happen to be reading now Ephesians verses:
EPH 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
EPH 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


that is: to summarize how I understand it:

the Gospel, the wisdom of God, of Jesus Christ birth, death and resurrection is not only for Man to see, but for the whole world to see, ie: Spiritual World to see as well.
 
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#5
the Gospel, the wisdom of God, of Jesus Christ birth, death and resurrection is not only for Man to see, but for the whole world to see, ie: Spiritual World to see as well.
And their understanding of it comes from The church body ... In other words we (the prophets) get it first
 
#6
Colossians 2:
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

What are these " elemental spiritual forces of this world"? NKJV translates this as basic principles of the world.
Could we list some of these?
Is rudiments similar to ordinances. Is it referring to verse 16... rules for eating, drinking, observing sabbaths, new moons and holy days....?

Theres also a list of earthly things to 'mortify' in chapter 3:5 fornication, uncleaness, inordinate affections, evil concupiscience, covetousness, which is idolatry....(your translation may differ)
 
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#7
Interesting, am still on going, looking at it, but my first impression is:

Forces, akin to a warfare:
1. Divine forces
2. the Rebellious forces
3. Man forces (indeed, Man can "try philosophically" , disassociate with the Divine and the Rebellion (although indirectly it benefit the Rebellious intentions)

my first impression:
I would associate the "elemental spiritual forces" to no. 2". more so than of no. 3 "Man-related".

in the same manner as the concept of "Principalities and power", etc, found in various verses"

a related bible study link:
https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Element-Elemental-Spirit

Reading further the related Colossian verses/ chapter:

COL 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
COL 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
COL 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
COL 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
COL 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
COL 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

COL 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

and am just so happen to be reading now Ephesians verses:
EPH 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
EPH 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


that is: to summarize how I understand it:

the Gospel, the wisdom of God, of Jesus Christ birth, death and resurrection is not only for Man to see, but for the whole world to see, ie: Spiritual World to see as well.
The No. 2 "rebellious forces" , are these the fallen angels, or just spiritual rebellion of man?
 
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#8
Is rudiments similar to ordinances. Is it referring to verse 16... rules for eating, drinking, observing sabbaths, new moons and holy days....?

Theres also a list of earthly things to 'mortify' in chapter 3:5 fornication, uncleaness, inordinate affections, evil concupiscience, covetousness, which is idolatry....(your translation may differ)
Ordinances are more of an authoritative or ordained rule. Rudiment is a basic or elementary concept. Complex as compared to simple.
 
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#9
Verses 20 -23 sheds light on these:
NIV
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

NKJV
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as thoughliving in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Verse 23 has "self-imposed religion". Doesn't that ring so true!
These have an appearance of wisdom....but have no value in restraining the indulgence of our desires. How do we measure ourselves in our restraint?
 
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#10
The holy spirit is the 'restrainer' and also, if we have died with Christ or have 'mortified' our flesh, we will no longer practice those indulgences of the flesh. Because we will be living by spirit and faith in Jesus, not walking by flesh to the world.

Another list appears in chapter 3 verse 8
Put of all these: anger, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth
Verse 12:
Put on bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering
 
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#11
The No. 2 "rebellious forces" , are these the fallen angels, or just spiritual rebellion of man?
From my view,

In the ancient world, everything that happens that is not the result of personal volition was considered because of the spiritual influence (good or bad). Even things that are the result of an aggregation of different peoples actions, as to what is politically correct or mob thought is the result of spiritual (good or bad) support.

For myself, I recognize that I am a little slow to attribute anything to the supernatural and a little fast to just assign mundane sources.

In reality, where our inner tendencies push us in one direction or another the spiritual realm (again, either good and evil) will use that, and us as tools.

So it probably not useful to draw too sharp a distinction, except when it comes to combatting those rebellious forces, at which time it informs our choice of tactics.
 
#12
Hmm thinking on this.
Rudiments..the basic things like dont do this, and do that. Such as eat all the fruit of all the trees in the garden, but just NOT the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

If we depending on Christ, then we are recognising what these fruits are..the good fruits of the holy spirit, whcih we are cultivating, (love,peace, joy, kindness, gentleness, temperance) and not producing evil or bad fruits such as malice, hatred, anger, jealousy...

But not only that depending on Christ by abiding in Him to produce these good fruits in ourselves.
 
Nov 18, 2011
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#14
For myself, I recognize that I am a little slow to attribute anything to the supernatural and a little fast to just assign mundane sources.

In reality, where our inner tendencies push us in one direction or another the spiritual realm (again, either good and evil) will use that, and us as tools.

So it probably not useful to draw too sharp a distinction, except when it comes to combatting those rebellious forces, at which time it informs our choice of tactics.
I agree: a sharp distinction may not be necessary, and am as well easily assign day to day things happenings more on mundane reasons:

just to give a background why my first impression arrived at such:

Sources of the "hollow and deceptive philosophy":

If the translation is the NIV: it gave the impression to me to distinct the blue and the green.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

While if the KJV verse: it does not give me to distinct but rather the green amplifies the blue:

COL 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

I think, a letter, a message (the words used), the messenger, the translation (English types*), the receiver of the message (their background) plays a lot to provide dimensions: but the core of the message remains that is most important to observe.

English type: say one country used to call it CR (Comfort Room), Toilet, Bathroom or in one country it is called “Water Closet or WC posted on the door”

Thus: if one will mention WC: the first impression will be: there has to be water in it
Or if “Toilet” : there has to be seat in there :)

In the same manner: if the translation will be “elemental spiritual forces” vs. “rudiments of the world” it does, or may gave some different impression (at least in my case)
 
Nov 18, 2011
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#15
Verses 20 -23 sheds light on these:
NIV
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

NKJV
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as thoughliving in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Verse 23 has "self-imposed religion". Doesn't that ring so true!
These have an appearance of wisdom....but have no value in restraining the indulgence of our desires. How do we measure ourselves in our restraint?
Indeed, verse 20 amplifies "doctrines of men"..
but there also a mention on the supernatural, in verse 18: which I really have no idea of, in green, or I haven't heard such in any Christian denominations am aware of.

KJV:

COL 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

NIV
18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind.
 
Nov 18, 2011
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#16
Re-reading Verse 20:

I happen to agree now: my now revised impression of the “elemental spiritual forces” as a SOURCE of “hollow and deceptive philosophy” is more of man-made rather that fallen angels-made.

That is:

Elemental: more of ABC, step by step procedures (rather than the elements of earth, wind and fire”

Spiritual: more of religious practices (rather than the substance)

Forces: this one made me slow to re-consider, “Forces” gave me an impression more of a group of beings as in a military force: but yes: it can mean things that obliges people to do things they or they may not like.

But this is not discounting those who still think otherwise: as posted in the earlier link: https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Element-Elemental-Spirit

I have no trouble to accept if people will interpret / think like that..

I think, seriously, although in good naturedly discussion: will post later in the “Heaven” thread :)

Am thinking : we will meet the man himself: St. Paul! :)
the letter-author, the messenger, what he really meant.

And am just posting: more on to discover how people arrived at their conclusions.

https://christianforumsite.com/threads/heaven.50656/page-2#post-481340
 
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#17
I agree: a sharp distinction may not be necessary, and am as well easily assign day to day things happenings more on mundane reasons:

just to give a background why my first impression arrived at such:

Sources of the "hollow and deceptive philosophy":

If the translation is the NIV: it gave the impression to me to distinct the blue and the green.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

While if the KJV verse: it does not give me to distinct but rather the green amplifies the blue:

COL 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

I think, a letter, a message (the words used), the messenger, the translation (English types*), the receiver of the message (their background) plays a lot to provide dimensions: but the core of the message remains that is most important to observe.

English type: say one country used to call it CR (Comfort Room), Toilet, Bathroom or in one country it is called “Water Closet or WC posted on the door”

Thus: if one will mention WC: the first impression will be: there has to be water in it
Or if “Toilet” : there has to be seat in there :)

In the same manner: if the translation will be “elemental spiritual forces” vs. “rudiments of the world” it does, or may gave some different impression (at least in my case)
Thats interesting the different translations, NIV has 'and' suggesting its different whereas KJV has a comma suggesting its related to the previous clause. Personally I would go for the KJV translation over the NIV, which seems to gender confusion and questions, when there doesnt need to be. I just notice that people have more questions and difficulties when they using an NIV translation, because its not really clear. I mean I did when I read the NIV, it was hard for me to understand it, the problem wasnt me, it was the translation. I think it tries to be a Bible for everyone (international) But then loses something in translation.
 
#18
Ordinances or rudiments? Colossians does talk about both as we have died from our old selves so we ought not to be subject to ordinances anymore that were put in place for those who didnt believe to follow. See 2:20

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world are you subject to ordinances,
Im thinking of rules...you need to be circumised, worship on this day, you cant do any work on the sabbath as it will break this rule etc. Then it gets silly and people become rule observers, sticklers and pharisees. And they lack completely grace that says ok, there are rules but if you following Jesus with all your heart you fufilling every requirment that the rules or ordinances were put in place for, as they were schoolmasters to bring you to Christ.

For example. Does this mean now that you know Christ, that you are obligated to live an totally orthodox jewish life and separate your meat from your dairy? Do you have to follow MORE rules that other people have imposed on you?