The Ending Of A Catholic Tradition??

Glomung

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Never gonna happen. That Cardinal does not speak for the church.
The scriptures are rather clear, celibacy is preferred for all clergy.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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But the article says:

Marriage is allowed in some cases within the church already. The English Catholic church has accepted married former Anglican priests, under a policy introduced in 2011 by the present pope, Benedict XVI.

Can you comment on that?
 
Jan 11, 2013
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Never gonna happen. That Cardinal does not speak for the church.
The scriptures are rather clear, celibacy is preferred for all clergy.
Hmmm....But the Scriptures say:

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, ...
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;


Can't be celibate and have a wife and children,too.
 
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Glomung

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1 Corinthians 7 covers it all.

It is better for a man to be unwed so that he can devote his mind and time to God.
Timothy is misqouted often, this states that a bishop should have 1 wife as opposed to many, not that he should have a wife.

Yes, the RC Church does allow married priests who are converting to Roman Catholicism to keep their wives. What else would they do?
 
Jan 11, 2013
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I see...Can you explain to me how you see Paul's direct address against clerical polygamy actually means clerical celibacy and how his direct address to 1st century missionary laymen to be voluntarily celibate (if they could) actually means mandatory clerical celibacy..?
 
Jul 22, 2010
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Is that the cardinal that they are starting a smear campaign about?
He who is without sin..cast the first bolder.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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Is that the cardinal that they are starting a smear campaign about?
He who is without sin..cast the first bolder.

Yup. Same one.


 
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Glomung

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...Can you explain to me how you see Paul's direct address against clerical polygamy actually means clerical celibacy and how his direct address to 1st century missionary laymen to be voluntarily celibate (if they could) actually means mandatory clerical celibacy..?

They don't. The Roman Catholic church decided early on that celibacy was preferred.

as in Matthew:
10 The disciples *said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.” 11 But He said to them, “Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”

As far as the Church is concerend, if you want to be a priest, you will be celibate, that is the preferred behavior, demonstrated by both Jesus and most of the Apostles, and it is them that a priest is to emulate.

In the Orthodox church, a parish priest may be married as long as he is married before he takes the vows as a priest.
But all other types of priests are celibate there also.

Again in Matthew:
37“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.38“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.39“He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

A priest is to take up his cross, deny the world and follow Jesus. How is he to do that with wife and kiddies?
If he has a wife he has more than embraced the world.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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They don't. The Roman Catholic church decided early on that celibacy was preferred.

Right. It's the church's will, not a biblical thing. Of course.

A priest is to take up his cross, deny the world and follow Jesus. How is he to do that with wife and kiddies?
If he has a wife he has more than embraced the world.

Ummm....no....That is addressed to all Christians, as far as I read it.
 

Glomung

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and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”

The Roman catholic church, and to a large extent the Orthodox and Coptic churches believe that to be a true servant of Christ you must "accept it" and be celibate. If the Protestants wish to serve God and wife/family then that is their issue.
To achieve real piety a person cannot have attachments to the world. Unless you have been around the truly pious you will never comprehend the difference. The Athonite Monks for example are truly "friends of God", not just a bunch of nice guys in funny clothes. They have a level of spirituality that cannot be developed when you live with home/wife/children and all the worldly trapping that family life entails.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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This brings up several matters:

1. "Must" is not a voluntary term. To "make oneself" is. St Paul did. No doubt it was voluntary, not a decree from men.
2. Note that Christ was not talking in the future tense: He said that at that time or in the past that there were unmarried ones. There were no Jewish monks. No "orders" of nuns or monks. It was a voluntary matter, not an organizational decree.
3. To "be a true servant of Christ" you must be a monk, priest, or nun? That idea makes the billions of laity not "true servants"....but what? Untrue, slack and worldly peasants? A disturbing concept.
4. What makes you think I have never been "around the truly pious"? If icon kissing and chanting equals "piety" to you, it's easy to find hermits that do these things. My idea of piety may be very different from yours.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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This also should be considered:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...feb/25/cardinal-obrien-resignation-church-sex

All Christians are called to be perfect, and in that sense all Christian moral doctrine is unrealistic. But there are some forms of perfection that are damaging to try for. The demand that all Catholic clergy should live as if sex were something that only ever happened to other people is one of those. It has outlived its usefulness and is now an engine of cruelty and hypocrisy. It's a very great shame that O'Brien's fall will be used by the Vatican's enemies of progress to discredit his brave and sensible suggestion last week that the celibacy of the priesthood be reconsidered.
The author is NOT a Protestant.
 
Jul 22, 2010
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I am not, nor ever have been, nor ever will be an adherent to the roman church. That said, I am more than a little disgusted that those four priests have waited around 30 years or so to raise accusations of impropriety against that cardinal. I am of course basing this on the media reports that I read and not first hand knowledge.
Taking things at face value, I wonder just how damaging this alleged misconduct really was, and how much it might be seizing an opportunity to settle old...very old grudges.
I really feel for the guy no matter what the real truth is.
 

Glomung

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I am a 53 year old man, once upon a time a healthy one, and it still amazes me no end,
how much trouble my fellow man has keeping their pants on.

"outlived its usefulness and is now an engine of cruelty and hypocrisy"

That is pure nonsense. What cruelty? What hypocrisy?
Serve God, not your personal lust.
If you cannot do the job, don't apply.
No-one is required to be celibate against their will. If they do not have the moral fiber required to be a priest
they may quit at any time.
 

Glomung

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Piety is service to God. The vast majority of what the laity do is of no service to God.
It involves sacrifice, something that most are not willing to do.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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I doubt many young candidates for the priesthood know without experience what being a life long celibate is like, so how could they possibly know how "to do the job".

I would not assign a new cook's school grad to run a 4 star restaurant, even if he thought he could.

The author's quip on "cruelty and hypocrisy" must relate to all the sexual scandals in the RCC; pedophilia is cruel and sexual sin while claiming sanctity enough to hold mass is seen by many to be the acme of hypocrisy. I expect this is what the author meant, but you must ask him.

Sure...a priest my quit at anytime if he has a problem with his sexuality; but name be half a dozen who have and said that is the reason why they quit.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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Piety is service to God. The vast majority of what the laity do is of no service to God.
It involves sacrifice, something that most are not willing to do.
That is a sad claim and perhaps an unconscious slur against fellow Catholics. To say a lay Catholic does not serve God is a scary idea, to me.