The Holy Rosary

I've done that, and what I am reading from you is a nice whitewashed presentation.
If you did indeed read it, in clear text, and what you think is in fact true, then I surely will not see you in heaven, because it would mean I am committing a grievous sin and will not receive salvation. That is the truth. Either that or it means I am a disobedient Catholic for not worshiping statues.

But the challenge I offered Lanolin is also extended to you and anyone else. If an official document offered by the Catholic Church itself clearly states that statues are to be worshiped and not used purely as a sacramental for focusing worship to God, then I will not only leave the Church, but will also begin attending any denominational church of your decision. I will also burn my rosary, destroy the statues I own, try to have my wife join me in this, and will take a photograph of myself at the church from the Sunday after the official statement is posted.

If you can't provide it, then I will carry on. And, with your agreement, if I can provide at least three official statements from the Catholic Church on why statues must not be worshiped along with at least 5 statements in regards to the Virgin Mary from the original reformers, then you must read one book of my choosing (and it won't be a long, thousand pager). That's of course only if you want to take the challenge to one further step, otherwise we can keep it simple.
 
If you did indeed read it, in clear text, and what you think is in fact true, then I surely will not see you in heaven, because it would mean I am committing a grievous sin and will not receive salvation. That is the truth. Either that or it means I am a disobedient Catholic for not worshiping statues.
Does believing in Jesus Christ and also holding to some error mean one is condemned? Certainly everyone has some form of erroneous belief. The problem comes when one digs his heels in and denies it. However once one has been made a child of God through faith, he is int he family, on the team. He needs, however, to be open to correction. The bible teaches nothing about these man-made behaviours of genuflecting before images, or kissing them, etc, or praying repetitively while counting beads. One is well off abandoning them.

But the challenge I offered Lanolin is also extended to you and anyone else. If an official document offered by the Catholic Church itself clearly states that statues are to be worshiped and not used purely as a sacramental for focusing worship to God, then I will not only leave the Church, but will also begin attending any denominational church of your decision. I will also burn my rosary, destroy the statues I own, try to have my wife join me in this, and will take a photograph of myself at the church from the Sunday after the official statement is posted.
Every born again Christian I know who has come out of Catholicism was led by God to abandon images and rosaries.

If you can't provide it, then I will carry on. And, with your agreement, if I can provide at least three official statements from the Catholic Church on why statues must not be worshiped along with at least 5 statements in regards to the Virgin Mary from the original reformers, then you must read one book of my choosing (and it won't be a long, thousand pager). That's of course only if you want to take the challenge to one further step, otherwise we can keep it simple.
General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM 2003):
274. A genuflection, made by bending the right knee to the ground, signifies adoration, and therefore it is reserved for the Most Blessed Sacrament, as well as for the Holy Cross from the solemn adoration during the liturgical celebration on Good Friday until the beginning of the Easter Vigil.

275. A bow signifies reverence and honor shown to the persons themselves or to the signs that represent them. There are two kinds of bows: a bow of the head and a bow of the body.

A) A bow of the head is made when the three Divine Persons are named together and at the names of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated.
B) A bow of the body, that is to say a profound bow, is made to the altar; during the prayers Munda cor meum (Almighty God, cleanse my heart) and In spiritu humilitatis (Lord God, we ask you to receive); in the Creed at the words Et incarnatus est (by the power of the Holy Spirit . . . made man); in the Roman Canon at the words Supplices te rogamus (Almighty God, we pray that your angel). The same kind of bow is made by the deacon when he asks for a blessing before the proclamation of the Gospel. In addition, the priest bows slightly as he speaks the words of the Lord at the consecration.

Also, please remember to genuflect by touching both knees to the ground before entering the pew when the Holy Eucharistic is visible on the altar in Adoration. This will also occur if you arrive at Mass after the Consecration. In these two cases touch both knees to the ground, make the sign of the Cross, and bow.

Source: 2003 GIRM


Leviticus 26:1
‘You shall not make idols for yourselves;

neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves;

nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it;

for I am the Lord your God.
 
Does believing in Jesus Christ and also holding to some error mean one is condemned? Certainly everyone has some form of erroneous belief. The problem comes when one digs his heels in and denies it. However once one has been made a child of God through faith, he is int he family, on the team. He needs, however, to be open to correction. The bible teaches nothing about these man-made behaviours of genuflecting before images, or kissing them, etc, or praying repetitively while counting beads. One is well off abandoning them.
No man can serve two masters. If you are suggesting that what I am doing is idolatry, then that means by default I would be worshiping outside of God, and we can only enter heaven by believing in Him and Him alone. This is why it would mean I should be kept out of heaven if your case is in fact right.

OR it would mean I am a disobedient Catholic because I really don't worship anyone or anything other than God. If what you mean is that the Catholic Church teaches to worship outside of God alone, then that means I am just a bad Catholic but a good non-Catholic Christian in error of what Catholicism teaches. It's one or the other, but it's not both nor is it neither.

Every born again Christian I know who has come out of Catholicism was led by God to abandon images and rosaries.
But madam, every born against Christian I know who has come to the Catholic Church was lead by God and found understanding of why sacred tradition and sacramentals serve a purpose in bringing people closer to Him, not the items of images themselves. Their purposes are to bring direction to Him, not away from Him. Every ex-Catholic I meet tends to boast about how he was Jesuit educated, went to a Catholic university and grew up Cradle Catholic, yet they cannot tell you the difference between dogma and doctrine. In other words, they never gained the knowledge of what the faith is and received poor, watered down catechises growing up.

General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM 2003):
274. A genuflection, made by bending the right knee to the ground, signifies adoration, and therefore it is reserved for the Most Blessed Sacrament, as well as for the Holy Cross from the solemn adoration during the liturgical celebration on Good Friday until the beginning of the Easter Vigil.
Yes. Genuflecting is making the sign of the cross, acknowledging the Godhead and doing it before the Blessed Sacrament (the Eucharist) which we believe to be Christ in body, blood, soul, and divinity. If it actually is, then we are right to adore -- otherwise we are turning our backs to Him.

275. A bow signifies reverence and honor shown to the persons themselves or to the signs that represent them. There are two kinds of bows: a bow of the head and a bow of the body.

A) A bow of the head is made when the three Divine Persons are named together and at the names of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated.
Yes, this is a bow of respect for the name of Christ and of those who have respect for. So far, this isn't worship. We in fact do the same thing when we give honor to elders.

B) A bow of the body, that is to say a profound bow, is made to the altar; during the prayers Munda cor meum (Almighty God, cleanse my heart) and In spiritu humilitatis (Lord God, we ask you to receive); in the Creed at the words Et incarnatus est (by the power of the Holy Spirit . . . made man); in the Roman Canon at the words Supplices te rogamus (Almighty God, we pray that your angel). The same kind of bow is made by the deacon when he asks for a blessing before the proclamation of the Gospel. In addition, the priest bows slightly as he speaks the words of the Lord at the consecration.
Yep, this is a bow of adoration strictly to the God's Word and the Eucharist. In other words, a form of worship to God alone -- no one else.

Also, please remember to genuflect by touching both knees to the ground before entering the pew when the Holy Eucharistic is visible on the altar in Adoration. This will also occur if you arrive at Mass after the Consecration. In these two cases touch both knees to the ground, make the sign of the Cross, and bow.
Yep, because we reserve worship to God alone. We would never do this to anyone or anything else.

Source: 2003 GIRM


Leviticus 26:1
‘You shall not make idols for yourselves;

neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves;

nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it;

for I am the Lord your God.
Absolutely. Making idols of things is a direct violation of God's commandments. We're all on board with this -- I think I even posted this passage along with Exodus 20:4-5 which also condemns making idols of graven images.

You're welcome to post more, but so far, this is your misunderstanding. None of these say anything about worshiping anything other than God.
 
No man can serve two masters. If you are suggesting that what I am doing is idolatry, then that means by default I would be worshiping outside of God, and we can only enter heaven by believing in Him and Him alone. This is why it would mean I should be kept out of heaven if your case is in fact right.]
Yes, it is a subtle introduction to idolatry, and it is down to religiosity. If one has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour (and not a religion that confirms salvation by a ceremony), then one is saved, even if one is holding to some error.

OR it would mean I am a disobedient Catholic because I really don't worship anyone or anything other than God. If what you mean is that the Catholic Church teaches to worship outside of God alone, then that means I am just a bad Catholic but a good non-Catholic Christian in error of what Catholicism teaches. It's one or the other, but it's not both nor is it neither.
This makes no sense. Being a disobedient catholic is nothing to God. He desires believers in Christ---Christians---not affiliation.

But madam, every born against Christian I know who has come to the Catholic Church was lead by God and found understanding of why sacred tradition and sacramentals serve a purpose in bringing people closer to Him, not the items of images themselves. Their purposes are to bring direction to Him, not away from Him. Every ex-Catholic I meet tends to boast about how he was Jesuit educated, went to a Catholic university and grew up Cradle Catholic, yet they cannot tell you the difference between dogma and doctrine. In other words, they never gained the knowledge of what the faith is and received poor, watered down catechises growing up.
Al that is justification for doing what religion calls one to do. It is not biblical, nor is it congruent with one who is free in Christ. Every non-Catholic believer who is strong in his faith (most everyone I know, and that is over 1000 people, and many are ex-catholics) know what faith is and why they believe what they do, because they know the word of God and the Person of Jesus Christ, personally, intimately.

Yes. Genuflecting is making the sign of the cross, acknowledging the Godhead and doing it before the Blessed Sacrament (the Eucharist) which we believe to be Christ in body, blood, soul, and divinity. If it actually is, then we are right to adore -- otherwise we are turning our backs to Him.
It's a religious affectation. "If" is a loaded word for you. Christ is not in the eucharist, and so you are bowing to a bit of foodstuff. Your adoration is tainted in doing this.

Yes, this is a bow of respect for the name of Christ and of those who have respect for. So far, this isn't worship. We in fact do the same thing when we give honor to elders.
Please show us where in scripture we must do this.

Yep, this is a bow of adoration strictly to the God's Word and the Eucharist. In other words, a form of worship to God alone -- no one else.
Please show us in scripture where we must do this.

Yep, because we reserve worship to God alone. We would never do this to anyone or anything else.
God doesn't require this. Please show us where scripture instructs this behaviour.

Absolutely. Making idols of things is a direct violation of God's commandments. We're all on board with this -- I think I even posted this passage along with Exodus 20:4-5 which also condemns making idols of graven images.

You're welcome to post more, but so far, this is your misunderstanding. None of these say anything about worshiping anything other than God.
I have no misunderstanding, as in Christ, I am free of all religious enslavements about these behaviours. There appears to be a very real implanted blindspot in the catholic worshiper about these behaviours, as they cannot see the correlation to idolatry in it all.
 
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You guys will never understand the things you yourself do not want to understand... I'm in that situation before, but I found out that i can't understand it be i already close my mind about it. I understand all of you. I've been there.
 
Yes, it is a subtle introduction to idolatry, and it is down to religiosity. If one has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour (and not a religion that confirms salvation by a ceremony), then one is saved, even if one is holding to some error.
This is a doctrinal disagreement. Perhaps I'm wrong because God is our judge, but I'm not convinced I would make it to heaven if I willingly and knowingly began worshiping Jesus AND someone else blatantly. Isn't acceptance of Christ also to mean obeying Him and keeping His commandments? Can one be counted a Christian if he steps outside of recognizing Him as the only source of worship?

This makes no sense. Being a disobedient catholic is nothing to God. He desires believers in Christ---Christians---not affiliation.

You're missing the point. The point I was making is that if you are saying that Catholicism teaches that I am to worship idols, then that simply means I am a bad Catholic. Granted, that would also mean that I am accidentally doing what God would want, but it would mean that the Catholic Church is automatically wrong for teaching this practice and I am a dissident Catholic for rejecting it.

The point I was making is that the Catholic Church does not teach that because God teaches to only worship Him, therefore it has no authority to even begin teaching otherwise. That was the whole point.

Al that is justification for doing what religion calls one to do. It is not biblical, nor is it congruent with one who is free in Christ. Every non-Catholic believer who is strong in his faith (most everyone I know, and that is over 1000 people, and many are ex-catholics) know what faith is and why they believe what they do, because they know the word of God and the Person of Jesus Christ, personally, intimately.
I'm not suggesting that non-Catholics can't be Christian -- they can be. But what I dd say what they ex-Catholics who leave and become evangelicals never truly understood what Catholicism is. They misunderstand it most likely because of the rotten catechesis found in so many diocese since the 1960's. Granted, it's not just in Catholic circles you'll find this, but Catholic circles aren't immune to watering down the faith.


It's a religious affectation. "If" is a loaded word for you. Christ is not in the eucharist, and so you are bowing to a bit of foodstuff. Your adoration is tainted in doing this.
But you're missing the point again. Let's say you are right, that Christ is not in the Eucharist and it really is only a piece of bread...then that does mean when I go to adoration, I am committing idolatry, but indirectly. Why? Because I am not meaning to worship a piece of bread -- based on my belief, I am on my knees in front of Our Lord Himself. So only if I was wrong about the Eucharist would I be committing idolatry, but INDIRECTLY. Now if I were to know the Eucharist was not the flesh of Christ Himself and still continued to adore the bread, then I would be committing DIRECT idolatry because I would be intentionally worshiping something that isn't Christ.

Euphemia, please understand that I am not making an argument for whether the Eucharist is or isn't really the flesh of Christ...we've had these discussions and we each know where we stand. No point in doing it again. The point of bringing it up is to distinguish the difference between whether Catholicism teaches to worship something other than God or if it teaches to only worship God. Logically, if the Church teaches that the Eucharist is in fact Christ's flesh, even if it is wrong, then that would mean it still doesn't teach to worship outside of God -- it would only mean we would be in error regarding the substance of the Eucharist.

Please show us where in scripture we must do this.

Please show us in scripture where we must do this.
First show me where the Bible teaches against sacred tradition (not false traditions of man mind you, but sacred tradition). These forms of bowing came from sacred tradition which were even practiced by the Apostles. See the writings of St. Justin Martyr -- St. Peter's disciple. The apostles of Christ passed this practice down and it has continued to this day.


Please show us where scripture instructs this behavior. God doesn't require this.
I never said God does. This practice is an act of directing worship to God. We don't have to raise our hands when singing hymns, but we do it for a reason.

I have no misunderstanding, as in Christ, I am free of all religious enslavements about these behaviours. There appears to be a very real implanted blindspot in the catholic worshiper about these behaviours, as they cannot see the correlation to idolatry in it all.
I'm sorry, Euphemia, but so far you've shown nothing but misunderstandings. You are doing what so many do when they quote Scripture to try and prove why Christianity teaches to stone sinners, own slaves, treat women like second-class citizens, hate your family, etc. etc. Taking text and then reading it all out of context in order to apply it to your agenda is exactly what Satan did in Matthew 4 when he kept quoting Scripture out of context to tempt Christ in the wilderness.

Do not stoop to that level in doing that. It's a cheap move. We have truth on our side with Christ and have nothing to fear in letting the truth out -- we don't need to twist things the way we want.

So the point ultimately isn't that I am trying to make you believe what I believe. The whole point was that you were supposed to show me where Catholicism teaches that we are to worship something or someone else other than Jesus. So far, nothing valid has been provided.

If you'd like me to provide where it teaches NOT to worship anyone other than God, I have plenty of those. And if you'd like to take me up on my offer, I'd be happy to do that. I know you don't have anything to be afraid of if you'd like to give it a shot. Please let me know.
 
Hmm. Well Mary is special.
So was Mary Magdalene.
And John, and Peter, and James...and Paul.

I dont know, when I asked my catholic friend about this...she just said catholics like to have a female role model, and who better than Mary?

I dont think she worships her but I suppose looking on the outside it looks like they do. I would refrain from judging. Im not all that comfotable with all those statues and religious paraphanelia though. I suppose people find meaning in it, but, for me, The Word of God is first.
why does it sound some of the born again christian, thinks Catholics are not christians? Im not saying all, but most.... For correction we are not worshiping an image, example is, the crucified Christ, the image hanging is not our God, or we do not bow down or kneel down on them. Who we are bowing down or kneeling down is the God who truly crucified there. Example is how about if there is no image or Crucified Christ ever before, as in never! how can people know, or appreciate (especially the people who did not know the Bible) the death of Christ if they can't even see a remembering image of Him. I, as a catholic do not look on the image as I pray... But every time a see a crucified Christ hanging on the cross. I remembered that there is God who suffered and died for me. A God with unselfish love.
:) I just give my point. :)
As I see you all have the same faith, but we are all looking on the external thing. Look on the heart brothers and sisters. :)
Bless u
 
I didnt say she wasnt a christian.
You dont understand, and are trying to justify a weakness that causes a lot of ppl to stumble.
Every time I hear scripture, I know it is Gods Word to me.
This is not so whenever I look at a religious statue or painting. I studied art history in school. There were many, many pictures of Jesus being crucified. It meant nothing to me just artists depictions. Also many tried to insert themselves in these pictures. I couldnt tell if they were real or not, Jesus looked Italian, not Jewish. maybe its cos im not a particularly visual person, but I dont believe I need a statue or picture to remind me of what Jesus did. his Word is enough, plus, the words in the bible are enough to create pictures in my mind.

If you need a picture, fine, but also...ppl been saying poor people cant read. That is rubbish. The only reason why they are not likely to read is they dont have any access to books. Ive worked in public libraries long enough to know this.
 
Jesus said to preach the gospel, shout it from the rooftop. He didnt say make statues of him and put his picture up on facebook etc etc.
your intentions may be good, but Thats not what God is asking us to do.

Then you get the instance when people will care more for the statues and paintings and pay more money for their upkeep and building maintanenence than actually looking after people.
 
I didnt say she wasnt a christian.
You dont understand, and are trying to justify a weakness that causes a lot of ppl to stumble.
Every time I hear scripture, I know it is Gods Word to me.
This is not so whenever I look at a religious statue or painting. I studied art history in school. There were many, many pictures of Jesus being crucified. It meant nothing to me just artists depictions. Also many tried to insert themselves in these pictures. I couldnt tell if they were real or not, Jesus looked Italian, not Jewish. maybe its cos im not a particularly visual person, but I dont believe I need a statue or picture to remind me of what Jesus did. his Word is enough, plus, the words in the bible are enough to create pictures in my mind.

If you need a picture, fine, but also...ppl been saying poor people cant read. That is rubbish. The only reason why they are not likely to read is they dont have any access to books. Ive worked in public libraries long enough to know this.

yeah, u are right, you don't need that., because you already saw what it looks like. before you even believe you saw it right. It doesn;t affect to our faith. Yes. And I agree that it became also the cause of people fall. And in reality there are so many people that mislead by that. but sister, remember this is a fallen world. Many people don't even believe in death on the cross, many people don't even know the true death in the cross, it's not about the death of the body of Christ it is about the turning back of the Father to His Son. Yes, Catholics may have lack of explanations about that. But for me, no one reveals that to me. Cause before, even I tried to put in my mind about why do we have images (even I was confused before) God reveals it to me. i know the truth, but I don't have to run from where I am, faith is not just running, it is resisting... Above those images,no! that is not my God.
 
Jesus said to preach the gospel, shout it from the rooftop. He didnt say make statues of him and put his picture up on facebook etc etc.
your intentions may be good, but Thats not what God is asking us to do.

Then you get the instance when people will care more for the statues and paintings and pay more money for their upkeep and building maintanenence than actually looking after people.
You have tried to preach/share the Gospel to the people right? Are all the people whom you talk to, accept it? not. That's a reality. God doesn't want us to build that statue. I agree with you. He say do not make any image, of anything on earth, or of heaven or under the sea. Does it mean, We are not allowed to take pictures? or draw a fish.? Very external right? What he meant there is do not make them your GOD. And correction, those are not our GOD.

I don't know how to explain my side sister. but open your mind. Even I, I've been there. But it is not about what eyes can see.
 
Many of my views echo those of Euphemia and Lanolin (both of whom I really enjoy reading) but I am on this site to learn about other points of view and other ways of seeing our Lord. Earlier in this thread, I asked some questions out of ignorance that hit a nerve. Although many of my questions were meant to show where my concerns lay, I wished to elicit explanations, when all I accomplished was to create ill will.

It is highly unlikely that I start praying the Rosary, or join a Catholic church. But I do have catholic friends. One of which is a leads a community service effort with which I am involved. Understanding more of what makes these persons who they are will help me to minister to them.

It is fine, even laudable to give voice to your beliefs, give reasons for your beliefs, and to describe the difficulties you have with different or even opposing ideas. But when it becomes an argument between those people that are not going to change their minds, it ceases to be edifying for anyone.

These differences are important and I do not think any of this is trivial, but it is unproductive. There are times when I may enter into a debate, but I would try to let it go when it becomes an argument. In recent days some other threads have hit a hot-button of mine and concerned my greatly. Whether my view on these issues is more correct or not is not the issue. I would not have changed anyone’s views, but increased the kind of animosity that I wish to dispel.
 
This is a doctrinal disagreement. Perhaps I'm wrong because God is our judge, but I'm not convinced I would make it to heaven if I willingly and knowingly began worshiping Jesus AND someone else blatantly. Isn't acceptance of Christ also to mean obeying Him and keeping His commandments? Can one be counted a Christian if he steps outside of recognizing Him as the only source of worship?
If one has accepted Jesus Christ as one's Saviour and Lord, then He will be transformed and want to obey the word. It's about grace. One needs to take stock of oneself in their faith: Does it please God for Him to see us bending the knee before an image or a likeness, and before the eyes of men? Does the Lord distinctly say in His word that He desires that we place a representation before our eyes to remind us of who is Lord? If not, then one must dispense with such religiosity.

You're missing the point. The point I was making is that if you are saying that Catholicism teaches that I am to worship idols, then that simply means I am a bad Catholic. Granted, that would also mean that I am accidentally doing what God would want, but it would mean that the Catholic Church is automatically wrong for teaching this practice and I am a dissident Catholic for rejecting it.
It does mean that the RCC is in error for teaching extra-biblical and unbiblical ideas and instructing in the performance of such things. A Christian would reject it.

The point I was making is that the Catholic Church does not teach that because God teaches to only worship Him, therefore it has no authority to even begin teaching otherwise. That was the whole point.
I don't see that in what the RCC teaches.

I'm not suggesting that non-Catholics can't be Christian -- they can be. But what I dd say what they ex-Catholics who leave and become evangelicals never truly understood what Catholicism is. They misunderstand it most likely because of the rotten catechesis found in so many diocese since the 1960's. Granted, it's not just in Catholic circles you'll find this, but Catholic circles aren't immune to watering down the faith.
Yes, there are Christians among catholics. Those who leave because they have experienced Jesus in a very real way have discovered what the RCC is. an intimate relationship with Jesus is a very freeing thing---free from religion, and free from the catechism. We need only God and His word.

But you're missing the point again. Let's say you are right, that Christ is not in the Eucharist and it really is only a piece of bread...then that does mean when I go to adoration, I am committing idolatry, but indirectly. Why? Because I am not meaning to worship a piece of bread -- based on my belief, I am on my knees in front of Our Lord Himself. So only if I was wrong about the Eucharist would I be committing idolatry, but INDIRECTLY. Now if I were to know the Eucharist was not the flesh of Christ Himself and still continued to adore the bread, then I would be committing DIRECT idolatry because I would be intentionally worshiping something that isn't Christ.
I would much rather one worship the Lord and be grateful for His broken body and spilled blood without all that extraneous unbiblical belief surrounding the communion memorial. Much rather to be sure that one is not wrapped up in error and even heresy, than to even have a hint of indirectly committing idolatry. We are instructed by God to avoid even the appearance of evil.

1 Thessalonians 5:22

Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Euphemia, please understand that I am not making an argument for whether the Eucharist is or isn't really the flesh of Christ...we've had these discussions and we each know where we stand. No point in doing it again. The point of bringing it up is to distinguish the difference between whether Catholicism teaches to worship something other than God or if it teaches to only worship God. Logically, if the Church teaches that the Eucharist is in fact Christ's flesh, even if it is wrong, then that would mean it still doesn't teach to worship outside of God -- it would only mean we would be in error regarding the substance of the Eucharist.
It is an adulteration and an addition of the truth of God's word. It's religiosity. That alone would make me run.

First show me where the Bible teaches against sacred tradition (not false traditions of man mind you, but sacred tradition). These forms of bowing came from sacred tradition which were even practiced by the Apostles. See the writings of St. Justin Martyr -- St. Peter's disciple. The apostles of Christ passed this practice down and it has continued to this day.
The bible reveals that we can be moved by God to prostrate ourselves or bow in solemn worship and reverence before the Lord. This is something that is prompted by the Holy Spirit in the heart of the individual, and is not to be a tradition.

I never said God does. This practice is an act of directing worship to God. We don't have to raise our hands when singing hymns, but we do it for a reason.
Jesus revealed His disdain for religious traditions.

Mark 7:8;13
8 For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

13 And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.”

I'm sorry, Euphemia, but so far you've shown nothing but misunderstandings. You are doing what so many do when they quote Scripture to try and prove why Christianity teaches to stone sinners, own slaves, treat women like second-class citizens, hate your family, etc. etc. Taking text and then reading it all out of context in order to apply it to your agenda is exactly what Satan did in Matthew 4 when he kept quoting Scripture out of context to tempt Christ in the wilderness.
I have no misunderstanding about these matters. That is why I speak to them.

Do not stoop to that level in doing that. It's a cheap move. We have truth on our side with Christ and have nothing to fear in letting the truth out -- we don't need to twist things the way we want.
As a student of the word, I have never done that, and I never will.

So the point ultimately isn't that I am trying to make you believe what I believe. The whole point was that you were supposed to show me where Catholicism teaches that we are to worship something or someone else other than Jesus. So far, nothing valid has been provided.

If you'd like me to provide where it teaches NOT to worship anyone other than God, I have plenty of those. And if you'd like to take me up on my offer, I'd be happy to do that. I know you don't have anything to be afraid of if you'd like to give it a shot. Please let me know.
It is up to Holy Spirit to teach you. If you want the truth, you need to get alone with Him and ask Him to point it out...and I am praying that you will do just that.
 
why does it sound some of the born again christian, thinks Catholics are not christians? Im not saying all, but most.... For correction we are not worshiping an image, example is, the crucified Christ, the image hanging is not our God, or we do not bow down or kneel down on them. Who we are bowing down or kneeling down is the God who truly crucified there. Example is how about if there is no image or Crucified Christ ever before, as in never! how can people know, or appreciate (especially the people who did not know the Bible) the death of Christ if they can't even see a remembering image of Him. I, as a catholic do not look on the image as I pray... But every time a see a crucified Christ hanging on the cross. I remembered that there is God who suffered and died for me. A God with unselfish love.
:) I just give my point. :)
As I see you all have the same faith, but we are all looking on the external thing. Look on the heart brothers and sisters. :)
Bless u
Not one single person needs to see any such image to worship the Lord. Jesus isn't on the cross.
 
I do not say we need images to worship the Lord, I say "remember". :)
How does one who has truly experienced Jesus really forget? We don't need images or crucifixes, or statues or icons, or strings of beads to help us remember what we have received by God's miraculous work of grace. Religion and superstition is an affront to God and they drive a wedge between the believer and the Saviour in relationship.

The veil in the temple was torn in half from top to bottom by God Himself, to open the way for us to come to Him boldly, and without reservation, and without religious accoutrements. We are His children and He is our Abba--Daddy. These articles and performances are superficial, and keep Him at arm's length. We are to be free from these things that smack of paganism.
 
How does one who has truly experienced Jesus really forget? We don't need images or crucifixes, or statues or icons, or strings of beads to help us remember what we have received by God's miraculous work of grace. Religion and superstition is an affront to God and they drive a wedge between the believer and the Saviour in relationship.

The veil in the temple was torn in half from top to bottom by God Himself, to open the way for us to come to Him boldly, and without reservation, and without religious accoutrements. We are His children and He is our Abba--Daddy. These articles and performances are superficial, and keep Him at arm's length. We are to be free from these things that smack of paganism.

i understand you, And I know that. But can't you see, the faith we have is not because of that images.

"You shall have no other gods before Me.4"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,…"

May I ask you, although Catholics have those images are we making them our gods? NO. The words, the homily, the preaching is Christ centered. That's why sometimes I do not understand why there are misunderstanding. I get your point, and even I, I don't believe in making images, but I understand what it is for. Not for worship, not even to be believer of God.
 
i understand you, And I know that. But can't you see, the faith we have is not because of that images.

"You shall have no other gods before Me.4"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,…"

May I ask you, although Catholics have those images are we making them our gods? NO. The words, the homily, the preaching is Christ centered. That's why sometimes I do not understand why there are misunderstanding. I get your point, and even I, I don't believe in making images, but I understand what it is for. Not for worship, not even to be believer of God.
The behaviour is like that of idolatry, but it is rationalized away. It is unnecessary in those who know God and want to please Him.
 
The behaviour is like that of idolatry, but it is rationalized away. It is unnecessary in those who know God and want to please Him.
Thank you. :D

but this is my last reply haha.

example you saw a picture of a family(not your own) together. Then you remember your family. Would you assume that the photo you saw is your family?

Im not saying that I am fine having those images that was worship by many. But in the verse above is far more different and the depth of meaning...
 
If one has accepted Jesus Christ as one's Saviour and Lord, then He will be transformed and want to obey the word. It's about grace. One needs to take stock of oneself in their faith: Does it please God for Him to see us bending the knee before an image or a likeness, and before the eyes of men? Does the Lord distinctly say in His word that He desires that we place a representation before our eyes to remind us of who is Lord? If not, then one must dispense with such religiosity.



It does mean that the RCC is in error for teaching extra-biblical and unbiblical ideas and instructing in the performance of such things. A Christian would reject it.



I don't see that in what the RCC teaches.



Yes, there are Christians among catholics. Those who leave because they have experienced Jesus in a very real way have discovered what the RCC is. an intimate relationship with Jesus is a very freeing thing---free from religion, and free from the catechism. We need only God and His word.



I would much rather one worship the Lord and be grateful for His broken body and spilled blood without all that extraneous unbiblical belief surrounding the communion memorial. Much rather to be sure that one is not wrapped up in error and even heresy, than to even have a hint of indirectly committing idolatry. We are instructed by God to avoid even the appearance of evil.

1 Thessalonians 5:22

Abstain from all appearance of evil.



It is an adulteration and an addition of the truth of God's word. It's religiosity. That alone would make me run.



The bible reveals that we can be moved by God to prostrate ourselves or bow in solemn worship and reverence before the Lord. This is something that is prompted by the Holy Spirit in the heart of the individual, and is not to be a tradition.



Jesus revealed His disdain for religious traditions.

Mark 7:8;13
8 For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

13 And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.”



I have no misunderstanding about these matters. That is why I speak to them.



As a student of the word, I have never done that, and I never will.



It is up to Holy Spirit to teach you. If you want the truth, you need to get alone with Him and ask Him to point it out...and I am praying that you will do just that.
With all do respect, I'm not sure how the discussion can continue if the subject keeps changing. I thought you were originally trying to say that the Catholic Church teaches outside worship. You've jumped from that to the Eucharist to only needing God and Hos Word (with which I never disagreed).

Forgive me, but if the topic can't be discussed without constant switching, than how can it be had at all.

You are more than welcome to continue speaking, but it really needs to stay in one spot before we change subjects.

With all sincerity, may God be with you and please pray for me.
 
Amens/Likes: Marry Joy