The Holy Rosary

Someone early on expressed concern this would devolve into some kind of "us" versus "them" stone throwing contest and apparently that is happening. The OP was to discuss the Rosary (a practice...a ritual). Within the Rosary there are a number of statements....one is a prayer (the Our Father)...one is a Creed (a statement of shared essential beliefs), and the other a call for intercession (called the hail Mary)....

The only controversy IS the hail Mary....I was under the impression we were going to discuss it as no one disagrees with the other two! Since it is NOT a prayer according to its language or grammar why can't it be analyzed line by line to see if it line's up with scripture and not concern ourselves with those who took this to its outlandish idolatrous application?

Well I can see we obviously cannot do that...so perhaps we should close the thread (after all it was made up by the church only in the west around the 14th century)....Siloam said it would be interesting to see people's thoughts and explanations so we all could learn (correct me if I am incorrect Sil) which I thought would be interesting and so I share my views...has anyone ever heard R. C. Sproul's view? Yeah he has one....

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/mary/hail-mary/

He is not the only non-RC to weigh in on the subject but it is good to listen to the various views....

In His love

Paul
 
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I didnt say she wasnt a christian.
You dont understand, and are trying to justify a weakness that causes a lot of ppl to stumble.
Every time I hear scripture, I know it is Gods Word to me.
This is not so whenever I look at a religious statue or painting. I studied art history in school. There were many, many pictures of Jesus being crucified. It meant nothing to me just artists depictions. Also many tried to insert themselves in these pictures. I couldnt tell if they were real or not, Jesus looked Italian, not Jewish. maybe its cos im not a particularly visual person, but I dont believe I need a statue or picture to remind me of what Jesus did. his Word is enough, plus, the words in the bible are enough to create pictures in my mind.

If you need a picture, fine, but also...ppl been saying poor people cant read. That is rubbish. The only reason why they are not likely to read is they dont have any access to books. Ive worked in public libraries long enough to know this.
Keep in mind that we are weak. We are sinners and have a nature to stumble, which is precisely why we need God. We are human and have a human nature with which God gifted us, our sinful nature also interferes. God also speaks to us through the material -- through what we see, smell, and hear, which ultimately is a reach to our immaterial souls.

In the 1200's, there was a growing heresy called albigensianism which taught that matter was evil and that uses of imagery and sound were to be rejected. It taught that the body was evil, marriage was evil because it included a physical character along with the spiritual, and so on. After years, the heresy mostly died out and understanding of why God loves the physical and uses it to speak to us so often is because of His creating it and loving us.

The use of sacramentals (that's what they are -- physical reminders that direct us to God), like the cross at your church or the Bible in your hands or the hands you fold when you pray, these are physical ways of speaking to us that we also display when speaking to Him. When little children learn about the gospel in Sunday school, it is often used with visuals (story books, puppet shows, etc.) because we are reached that way. Or when we go to church on Sunday and sing a hymn and the music is playing, we aren't worshiping the music itself, we are worshiping THROUGH music.

So these things don't cause people to stumble. Our abilities to see and hear are gifts from God and can even be seen as crutches because we can stumble and fall. They themselves don't save us (that's God), but they do help in directing us to the one who saves us. This is also why we have passages like Exodus 25:18-22, Exodus 28:33-34, Exodus 37:7-9, Numbers 21:8-9, 1 Kings 6:23-28 1 Kings 7:23-29 -- where God used the physical to reach us.

No one was suggesting that if you're poor you can't read. I can think of dozens and dozens of examples of people who grew up impoverished and went on to accomplish extraordinary things academically. However, what I did say was that literacy and education have been a secondary means in impoverished locations. With today's resources, literacy is more accessible even to the very poor in third world countries, but before that when they were a bit more scarce, so was literacy. And especially long ago, this was a major purpose for the illiterate, whether poor or rich, to be able to take in God's Word.

In the 8th century, another heresy took place called Iconoclasm, which is the fear and rejection of icons -- the word is Greek for icon breaker. It was mostly practiced among Muslims and were offended by icons out of fear that it could serve in conversions to Christianity. And part of this is also because they knew of its purpose in being a physical expression of the Bible.
 
According to Muslim friends of mine was not so much the use of statues or icons as much as bowing down to them, kissing them, genuflecting before them, praying to them....

The word ICON comes out of the Bible....in 1 Cor and Col Paul uses this word to refer to Jesus and this comes from the LXX as well when it speaks of us being made in the image (eikon) of God...but the bowing, kissing, etc., this is what enraged the early Muslims
 
According to Muslim friends of mine was not so much the use of statues or icons as much as bowing down to them, kissing them, genuflecting before them, praying to them....

The word ICON comes out of the Bible....in 1 Cor and Col Paul uses this word to refer to Jesus and this comes from the LXX as well when it speaks of us being made in the image (eikon) of God...but the bowing, kissing, etc., this is what enraged the early Muslims
That's interesting info. I'll have to research that and get back to you. Thanks, Brother Paul :)
 
Please note the reason they use for all praying toward the Ka'bah during the Hajj (a bit of hypocrisy maybe?)

"When Muslims pray facing toward this single central point, they are reminded of their common purpose and long-term goal. Even when standing directly before the Ka‘bah in prayer, one is not to look at it but rather at the ground before him. The spiritual focus is on God alone and never upon any created object."

This does not differ from the official position of the RC correct? I mean, here they are by the 1,000s bowing before the house containing the stone chanting their prayer...how would an uninformed observer view this...no different I assume!
 
Please note the reason they use for all praying toward the Ka'bah during the Hajj (a bit of hypocrisy maybe?)

"When Muslims pray facing toward this single central point, they are reminded of their common purpose and long-term goal. Even when standing directly before the Ka‘bah in prayer, one is not to look at it but rather at the ground before him. The spiritual focus is on God alone and never upon any created object."

This does not differ from the official position of the RC correct? I mean, here they are by the 1,000s bowing before the house containing the stone chanting their prayer...how would an uninformed observer view this...no different I assume!
You're correct. The altar in a Catholic Parish is facing east (better known as Ad Orientum). This is a very old tradition dating from the first century of Christianity from the time when the Sabbath was recognized on the day of the sun (or as we call it now, Sunday). The East isn't meant to direct ourselves to a certain location so much as a symbolism for the rising sun and the universality of God. That's the traditional way and is still practiced in many parishes. Though a common practice today is where the priest is facing the west (so the congregants and the priest are facing each other) -- this is called Novus Ordo and began picking up not too long ago.

Islam (which surprisingly is actually a Christian heresy) has their overlap of practices but are abuses because of teaching and spiritual direction of worship. I don't think the facing a direction is the evil part so much as it is the focal point of belief itself. Muslim prayers aren't evil because they are prayers -- they are evil because of the heresies behind them.
 
With all do respect, I'm not sure how the discussion can continue if the subject keeps changing. I thought you were originally trying to say that the Catholic Church teaches outside worship. You've jumped from that to the Eucharist to only needing God and Hos Word (with which I never disagreed).

Forgive me, but if the topic can't be discussed without constant switching, than how can it be had at all.

You are more than welcome to continue speaking, but it really needs to stay in one spot before we change subjects.

With all sincerity, may God be with you and please pray for me.
I haven't switched from the topic.
 
has anyone ever heard R. C. Sproul's view? Yeah he has one....

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/mary/hail-mary/
Thanks for the link, interesting, very interesting to listen to (it is an audio)

Makes me think: a Good Judgment

Judgment: so as to judge properly: we need to see the critical Points of the issue.

A good man of a judge see many points of view (POV)….although a good judge may not see a different POV, but after he seen it, it is now included in his POV of view to be used in his judgment,
...... but still, there still more POV, infinite POVs…..INFINITY..

I like the part where, in my own words, Calvin’s concern is more on the “theoretically correct” may not be “practically, in application, practiced correctly” …. hmm…

I also like the last part, it is human nature to look for heroes, the Hebrew verse: a roll call of heroes…