The Two Houses

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That which, above all else, marks the difference between the Church and Israel, and indeed we may say between the Church and the entire population of the millennial earth, is that the Church is blessed in the Lord Jesus Christ and is with Him: Israel and the millennial nations will be blessed by Him and we will be under His reign.

The Church is Christ Body—His Bride, and participates thus in His exultation to be head over all things both in heaven and on earth. As the body partakes with the head of all the vital energies by which the whole is actuated, so does the Church even now partake with the Lord Jesus of His risen life, and receive from Him the anointing of the Holy Spirit: and as the bride participates in all that is possessed by her husband, so is the Church, the Bride, the lamb’s wife, to participate in His inheritance of all things. Her oneness with Him is the great distinction of the Church.

There are many things in which those who compose the Church differ not from saints of other dispensations, whether past or future. True believers between the day of Pentecost and the descent of the Lord Jesus into the air at the Rapture, constitute the “Church;” and these in common with the Old Testament saints and millennial saints, are chosen of God the Father, redeemed by the Blood of the Savior, quickened and regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and they are all preserved by almighty grace. In these things the Church differs not from other saints.

That which distinguishes the Church is her oneness with the Lord Jesus Christ. “At that day you shall know (here upon the earth) that I am in the Father and you in Me, and I in you” (Jn 14:20). Of none but the Church could these words be spoken. Of no others could it be said, and the glory which thou gave Me I have given them that they may be one, even as We are One: I in them and You in Me and they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and has loved them as You have loved Me (Jn 17:22, 23).

Israel and the nations in millennial times will constitute “the world,” who, by seeing the Church in the same glory as the Lord Jesus, are to know that she is the object of the same love of the Father as the Lord Jesus Himself is loved. Israel and the nations will be happy, Israel preeminently so, under the reign of the King and His glorified Saints: but no distinction can be made more marked, no contrast more striking, than that which exists between the Bride of the lamb and the nations over which she, with her Lord and Bridegroom, is to reign.

Israel’s distinctive calling is to earthly blessings. Had they been obedient, wealth, power, fame and prosperity, would have been the tokens of God’s approval of their ways. By their disobedience, their idolatry, and especially their rejection of the Savior, they have come under the inflictions of God’s wrath, and that wrath has been manifested against them in all the heavy temporal judgments which have overtaken them. We refer now to God’s dealings with them nationally, in His providential government of the earth. As individuals they are, of course, in common with all men, amendable to eternal judgment and if not saved “by grace through faith,” that judgment will result in eternal ruin.

But it is with God’s dispensational dealings that we are now occupied; the scripture leaves no room for doubt that in this world, the wrath of God against Israel has been, is, and will yet be, manifested by the infliction of temporal calamities.

Prophecy, on the other hand, proves that God’s approbation of Israel, when nationally restored and saved, will be manifested in abundance of temporal prosperity and blessings. Israel’s is an earthly calling: and with Israel, consequently, adversity on earth is a token of God’s displeasure—prosperity a sign of His favor and His smile.

The Church having no present inheritance, except as one with the Lord Jesus in heaven, present earthly trials and sufferings are not her token of divine disapproval. Nay, they are as much her proper portion with Christ on earth, as the glory given by the Father to the Lord Jesus, and given by Him to the Church, is her portion with Him in heaven. Hence the sufferings of the Church are her glory. “Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up that which is behind in the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His body’s sake, which is the Church” (Col 1:24). “For unto you is given on behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake” (Phl 1:29).

“That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made comfortable to His death” (Phl 3:10). “And not only so, but we glory in tribulation also” (Ro 5:3). The Lord Jesus esteemed it His highest glory that the Father should be glorified in Him in His endurance of the Cross (Jn 14:31), and the Church, being by the Spirit like-minded with the Lord Jesus, esteems as her highest glory that she should be “counted worthy to suffer for His name” (Act 5:41).

Israel’s calling and that of the Church being so different, it follows up necessity that their hopes also differ. The Lord Jesus is the hope of both of the one and the other; but He is the hope of the Church as the One who will descend into the air, and receive her to Himself, and to the full consummation of her blessedness with Himself in heaven: He is “the hope of Israel,” as the one who will further descend to the earth, delivering them from the yoke of the Gentiles, executing judgment on all who have opposed them, and setting up on the earth His glorious Kingdom, of which Jerusalem is to be the center, and in which Israel, forgiven and purified, is to enjoy the most conspicuous, distinguished place.

Such are the hopes held out to Israel by the word of God—hopes which, in their fulfillment, are inseparable from the execution of destroying judgment on all who exalt themselves against God and oppress His people. “The day of vengeance” on God’s adversaries is to be the day of Israel’s deliverance and the immediate prelude to Israel’s exaltation and full blessing unto Messiah’s reign. It is impossible, therefore, for an Israelite, as such, to desire or invoke Jehovah’s interposition, or Messiah’s coming, for the fulfillment of Israel’s national hopes, without invoking or desiring judgment on the wicked.

The hopes of the Church, on the contrary, are quite unconnected with the thought of judgment on the wicked, she is aware indeed that judgment on the ungodly will ensue on her own removal from the earth; still, that for which she wait is not a state of earthly blessedness which judgment on the wicked is to introduce, but her own translation from amid the scene of evil to meet the Lord in the air, and to be “forever with the Lord.” This is the hope which the Church, or the saint, can both cherish and express without a thought of the wicked, or of the judgments to be executed upon them. These judgments succeed, and probably at some distance of time, the descent of the Lord Jesus into the air; they are not the necessary preliminaries of that event, and that even itself is the Church’s blessed hope.


—W. Trotter (1818-1865)



MJS daily devotional excerpt

The life that emerges from death is administered by a loving, nail-pierced hand.

“As with the seed that is buried once for all, but then disintegrated through a gradual process that sets free the new life, even so does our Father deal with our old nature by delivering it to death with the Lord Jesus once for all, and then bringing about its mortifying in detail through the circumstances of daily life, until the power of the old man has lost its hold on us.” -L.T.

“We are going to have to learn death in order to know life. Redemption must be known first, and the ultimate effect will be death to sin, to selfishness; and all this is very trying. One might be tempted to say, “All this trial comes upon me because I have not been redeemed.” Not so; it is just because you are redeemed. We may seek to avoid the bitter waters of Marah, but our Father will bring us to them. He intends to break down what is of the old man, and then, in His own good time, He will pour in that which sweetens all.

“But because God has brought me to Himself, He is putting His finger on everything that hinders complete dependence upon Him, or my soul’s full enjoyment of Himself. So count it not strange, though it be a fiery trial which is to try you; for the Father will have you drink of the very thing (death) that redeemed you.” -J.N.D.
 
Good morning, netchaplain;

For some reason I cannot put into words what The Two Houses is saying to me. I know God has two distinctions between His Church and His people, Israel. Perhaps this is one of those times we can't be quick to respond but take a step back before proceeding in the discussion.

God bless you and thanks for sharing The Two Houses. I do want to join in and will be back.

Bob
 
Good morning, netchaplain;

For some reason I cannot put into words what The Two Houses is saying to me. I know God has two distinctions between His Church and His people, Israel. Perhaps this is one of those times we can't be quick to respond but take a step back before proceeding in the discussion.

God bless you and thanks for sharing The Two Houses. I do want to join in and will be back.

Bob
Hi Brother Bob! It's a matter of dispensations, which are times that God does differently, e.g. Paul mentions dispensation of Grace (Eph 3:2), so there must have been a dispensation of Law. Thus there is a difference between the two ways God dealt with man. The Millennia and eternity are not dispensations because they begin eternity.
 
That which, above all else, marks the difference between the Church and Israel,
There are some biblical truths in this post, but I believe the main problem is that it separates Israel and the Church much further than the Bible does. The Bible says Christ “hath made both one” and created “in himself of twain one new man,” reconciling both unto God “in one body by the cross” Ephesians 2:14-16. Jesus also said, “There shall be one fold, and one shepherd” John 10:16. Romans 11 shows us one olive tree, not two separate groups of saved people with two different eternal destinies.

I also do not see where the Bible teaches that the Old Testament saints only had an earthly hope. Abraham “looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God” Hebrews 11:10. They desired “a better country, that is, an heavenly” Hebrews 11:16. Hebrews 11:40 also says that they without us should not be made perfect. That sounds like God is bringing His redeemed people together, not keeping them separated forever.

The rapture teaching in this post is also being assumed instead of proven from Scripture. The statement that judgment comes “probably at some distance of time” is speculation. The Bible does not say probably. Matthew 24:29-31 places the gathering of the elect after the tribulation. Second Thessalonians 1:7-10 shows Christ being revealed as both rest for His people and judgment upon the wicked.

God has not cast away Israel. Romans 11 makes that clear. But the Bible does not teach two bodies, two brides, or two separate ways of salvation. There is one Shepherd, one flock, one body, one Bride, and one Savior.

We need to be careful not to divide what Jesus Christ joined together by His cross.
 
There are some biblical truths in this post, but I believe the main problem is that it separates Israel and the Church much further than the Bible does. The Bible says Christ “hath made both one” and created “in himself of twain one new man,” reconciling both unto God “in one body by the cross” Ephesians 2:14-16. Jesus also said, “There shall be one fold, and one shepherd” John 10:16. Romans 11 shows us one olive tree, not two separate groups of saved people with two different eternal destinies.

I also do not see where the Bible teaches that the Old Testament saints only had an earthly hope. Abraham “looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God” Hebrews 11:10. They desired “a better country, that is, an heavenly” Hebrews 11:16. Hebrews 11:40 also says that they without us should not be made perfect. That sounds like God is bringing His redeemed people together, not keeping them separated forever.

The rapture teaching in this post is also being assumed instead of proven from Scripture. The statement that judgment comes “probably at some distance of time” is speculation. The Bible does not say probably. Matthew 24:29-31 places the gathering of the elect after the tribulation. Second Thessalonians 1:7-10 shows Christ being revealed as both rest for His people and judgment upon the wicked.

God has not cast away Israel. Romans 11 makes that clear. But the Bible does not teach two bodies, two brides, or two separate ways of salvation. There is one Shepherd, one flock, one body, one Bride, and one Savior.

We need to be careful not to divide what Jesus Christ joined together by His cross.
Hi, and thanks for your reply! Yes, one from the two-Christian Jews and Gentiles. Though God knew the majority of the Jews will not except the Lord Jesus, He knows many of the Jews truly love Him. The Christians relationship with God is He's their Father; the relationship with Israel is they will always be His people, but not His children. One must love the Lord Jesus to inherit the New Heaven. Thus Israel inherits the New Earth, which is a promise God will keep. I wouldn't think God after 4 millennia would abandon His people Israel.
 
Hi, and thanks for your reply! Yes, one from the two-Christian Jews and Gentiles. Though God knew the majority of the Jews will not except the Lord Jesus, He knows many of the Jews truly love Him. The Christians relationship with God is He's their Father; the relationship with Israel is they will always be His people, but not His children. One must love the Lord Jesus to inherit the New Heaven. Thus Israel inherits the New Earth, which is a promise God will keep. I wouldn't think God after 4 millennia would abandon His people Israel.
I agree that God has not abandoned Israel. Romans 11 makes that clear. But I do not see where the Bible says that Christians inherit the New Heaven while Israel inherits the New Earth.

Revelation 21 does not separate God’s redeemed people that way. John sees “a new heaven and a new earth,” and then the New Jerusalem comes down from God out of heaven. God says, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them” Revelation 21:1-3. That sounds like one redeemed people living with God, not two groups with two different eternal inheritances.

I also do not believe the Bible teaches that Israel will always be God’s people but never His children. No one becomes a child of God because of their nationality or natural birth. John 1:12 says, “As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” Galatians 3:26 says, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

That includes Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ.

Romans 9:6-8 also says, “They are not all Israel, which are of Israel,” and “the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God.” Being a natural descendant of Abraham does not give anyone eternal life. A Jewish person who rejects Jesus Christ is just as lost as a Gentile who rejects Him.

God will keep every promise He made to Israel, but He will not save anyone apart from Jesus Christ. Jesus said, “No man cometh unto the Father, but by me” John 14:6.

So where does the Bible clearly say that Israel inherits the New Earth but will never be God’s children? I do not see that in Scripture.
 
I agree that God has not abandoned Israel. Romans 11 makes that clear. But I do not see where the Bible says that Christians inherit the New Heaven while Israel inherits the New Earth.

Revelation 21 does not separate God’s redeemed people that way. John sees “a new heaven and a new earth,” and then the New Jerusalem comes down from God out of heaven. God says, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them” Revelation 21:1-3. That sounds like one redeemed people living with God, not two groups with two different eternal inheritances.

I also do not believe the Bible teaches that Israel will always be God’s people but never His children. No one becomes a child of God because of their nationality or natural birth. John 1:12 says, “As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” Galatians 3:26 says, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

That includes Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ.

Romans 9:6-8 also says, “They are not all Israel, which are of Israel,” and “the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God.” Being a natural descendant of Abraham does not give anyone eternal life. A Jewish person who rejects Jesus Christ is just as lost as a Gentile who rejects Him.

God will keep every promise He made to Israel, but He will not save anyone apart from Jesus Christ. Jesus said, “No man cometh unto the Father, but by me” John 14:6.

So where does the Bible clearly say that Israel inherits the New Earth but will never be God’s children? I do not see that in Scripture.
Scriptural passages confirming Israel’s inheritance of the earth—and the Promised Land—are primarily rooted in the Abrahamic Covenant and prophetic promises spanning the Old and New Testaments. [1, 2, 3, 4]
These foundational verses and themes highlight this inheritance:
1. The Everlasting Land Covenant
These passages establish the original, unconditional, and eternal promise of the land of Canaan to Abraham and his physical descendants. [1]
    • Genesis 17:7–8: "And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession..." [1]
    • Genesis 13:14–15: "Lift up your eyes now and look from the place where you are—northward, southward, eastward, and westward; for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever." [1]
2. Prophecies of Restoration and Eternal Possession
The Hebrew Prophets contain passages declaring that Israel’s inheritance of the land is ultimately permanent, securing their borders globally and eternally. [1, 2]
    • Amos 9:15: "I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, says the Lord your God." [1, 2]
    • Isaiah 60:21: "Your people shall all be righteous; they shall possess the land forever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I might be glorified." [1, 2, 3, 4]
3. The Inheritance of the Whole Earth
In the New Testament, the land promise to Abraham and his "seed" is expanded to include the ultimate inheritance of the whole earth. [1]
    • Romans 4:13: "For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith."
    • Matthew 5:5: "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." [1, 2, 3, 4]


These are a few of many passages of what Israel's eschatology looks like to me. I've found it easy to infer passages that I believe relate to Israel.
 
These are a few of many passages of what Israel's eschatology looks like to me. I've found it easy to infer passages that I believe relate to Israel.
Those passages confirm that God will keep His promises to Israel. I have not denied that. But none of them says that Christians inherit the New Heaven while Israel alone inherits the New Earth, or that redeemed Israelites will never be God’s children.

Romans 4:13 actually works against that division. Abraham became “the heir of the world” through “the righteousness of faith,” not through natural descent. Galatians 3:29 explains, “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” The inheritance belongs to those who are in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile.

Matthew 5:5 does not say ethnic Israel alone will inherit the earth. Jesus said, “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.” That promise belongs to all who belong to Christ.

Isaiah 60:21 says, “Thy people also shall be all righteous.” That is not describing unbelieving Israelites who remain outside Christ. Scripture says righteousness comes through faith in Jesus Christ. “There is no difference: for all have sinned” Romans 3:22-23.

Most importantly, Revelation 21 directly says of the eternal state, “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son” Revelation 21:7. That plainly includes sonship in the New Heaven and New Earth. It does not describe one redeemed group as children and another redeemed group as merely subjects.

Ephesians 2 also says believing Jews and Gentiles are made “one new man” and are “fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God” Ephesians 2:15, 19.

The verses you quoted prove that God will fulfill His promises. They do not prove two eternally separated classes of redeemed people with different inheritances. The original question still stands: where does Scripture actually say that Israel inherits the New Earth but will never be God’s children?
 
Those passages confirm that God will keep His promises to Israel. I have not denied that. But none of them says that Christians inherit the New Heaven while Israel alone inherits the New Earth, or that redeemed Israelites will never be God’s children.
It's ok that we have differing views, esp. concerning Israel's eschatology, because nearly all Bible believers aren't aware of this issue.
 
It's ok that we have differing views, esp. concerning Israel's eschatology, because nearly all Bible believers aren't aware of this issue.
No, this is not merely because we disagree. This is about what the Bible actually says. You have taught that Christians receive the New Heaven while Israel receives the New Earth, and that Israel will ALWAYS be God’s people but NEVER His children. I have asked YOU to show me where Scripture teaches that, but YOU have not done it.

Revelation 21 clearly says that the New Jerusalem comes “down from God out of heaven” and that “the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them” Revelation 21:2–3. It never teaches that Christians and Israel are two groups with separate eternal inheritances.

The Bible also says, “As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name” John 1:12. That includes every Israelite who receives Jesus Christ. Not one Israelite is excluded from becoming a child of God because of his nationality.

You can believe this doctrine if you want, but that does not make it Scripture. If you cannot show where the Bible teaches it, then you are teaching an extra-biblical doctrine. It does not matter how many Bible-believing Christians are aware of this issue. What matters is what God has actually said in His Word.

This is not a harmless disagreement over an unclear detail. It is dangerous to teach something as God’s truth when God’s Word does not actually say it. “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar” Proverbs 30:6.

Paul also warned us “not to go beyond what is written” 1 Corinthians 4:6. When you teach that Christians inherit the New Heaven, Israel inherits the New Earth, and redeemed Israelites will never be God’s children, you need Scripture that actually says those things. Your assumptions and conclusions are not enough.

The Bible gives a serious warning to anyone who teaches God’s Word: “My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation” James 3:1. I am warning you plainly because this is dangerous. Stop presenting this doctrine as biblical truth unless you can prove it from the Bible. We do not have the right to add our own ideas to God’s Word and then teach them as though God said them.
 
Hi Netchaplain,

A couple of points.

1. God has two inheritances for Israel - as the stars & as the sand. Stars are prominent in the universe (New Jerusalem as promised. Heb. 11) but NOT the predominant, the Body of Christ is further up in the third heaven. As the sand indicates the predominant position on the earth ruling over the nations as God promised.

2. Jesus does not have èros` romantic love that is earthly between male and female, but àgape` a giving of Himself.
If I say you are like a hare, I do not mean an animal. However, there is something similar of the two - you can run fast.
The same with Às a bride,` (Rev. 21: 2) The city is NOT an actual bride but something is similar. It is the glory of the Lord, (Rev. 21: 11) which is the very character of Christ.
 
Hi Netchaplain,

A couple of points.

1. God has two inheritances for Israel - as the stars & as the sand. Stars are prominent in the universe (New Jerusalem as promised. Heb. 11) but NOT the predominant, the Body of Christ is further up in the third heaven. As the sand indicates the predominant position on the earth ruling over the nations as God promised.

2. Jesus does not have èros` romantic love that is earthly between male and female, but àgape` a giving of Himself.
If I say you are like a hare, I do not mean an animal. However, there is something similar of the two - you can run fast.
The same with Às a bride,` (Rev. 21: 2) The city is NOT an actual bride but something is similar. It is the glory of the Lord, (Rev. 21: 11) which is the very character of Christ.
Marilyn, neither of those claims is actually stated anywhere in Scripture. God’s promise that Abraham’s descendants would be “as the stars of heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore” is about number. Genesis 22:17 plainly says, “I will multiply thy seed.” It does not say the stars represent one heavenly inheritance and the sand represents another earthly inheritance. That is being read into the text.

The claim that the Body of Christ will be “further up in the third heaven” also needs a verse. Where does the Bible say that? Hebrews 11 says Abraham looked for “a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God,” and that the faithful desired “a better country, that is, an heavenly” Hebrews 11:10, 16. It does not divide God’s redeemed people into different eternal levels.

Revelation 21 is also very clear. The angel says, “Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife” Revelation 21:9. John is then shown the New Jerusalem. You cannot brush that aside by saying it is only “as a bride,” because the angel directly calls it “the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”

The city has the names of the twelve tribes of Israel on the gates and the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb on the foundations Revelation 21:12–14. That shows unity, not two separate eternal peoples placed in different heavenly locations.

The discussion about eros and agape misses the point. No one is saying Christ’s love for His people is sexual. The bride language speaks of union, love, faithfulness, and belonging. Paul says, “Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it” Ephesians 5:25.

The real question is simple. Where does Scripture teach this two-inheritance system? Stars, sand, cities, and bride imagery do not give us permission to build doctrines the Bible never states.
 
No, this is not merely because we disagree. This is about what the Bible actually says. You have taught that Christians receive the New Heaven while Israel receives the New Earth, and that Israel will ALWAYS be God’s people but NEVER His children. I have asked YOU to show me where Scripture teaches that, but YOU have not done it.
The Bible contains numerous promises regarding the physical and spiritual restoration of Israel. Key passages include Amos 9:14-15, which guarantees God will plant them in their land never to be uprooted; Ezekiel 36:24-28, detailing a geographical return and a spiritual renewal; and Romans 11:25-27, where the Apostle Paul outlines that "all Israel will be saved".
These texts encompass two main types of restoration: geographical (returning to the land) and spiritual (turning back to God). -Reddit

Key Geographical Restoration Verses
    • Isaiah 11:11-12: The Lord promises to raise a banner and recover the remnant of His people from the "four corners of the earth".
    • Jeremiah 30:3: God declares He will bring Israel and Judah back from captivity to the land given to their ancestors.
    • Amos 9:14-15: God promises to rebuild ruined cities and firmly plant Israel on their land, so they will "never again be uprooted".

Key Spiritual Restoration Verses
    • Ezekiel 11:19-20: God promises to give the people a "new heart" and put a new spirit within them, turning them away from sin and toward His laws. [1]
    • Zechariah 12:10: A prophecy describing a future spiritual awakening, where the people will look upon the one they have pierced and mourn for Him. [1]
    • Romans 11:26-27: Paul explains that a partial hardening has come over Israel until the Gentiles come in, after which "all Israel will be saved". [1, 2] -YouTube
 
Hello everyone;

Where is this going? The Two Houses discussion is a problem and I'll share my thoughts.

I strongly believe we all must study the Bible, sola Scriptura, and be very careful not to outweigh God's Word with commentary. Constructively, this is what Minister W. Trotter does in his message, which is the whole of what I read in this thread.

I shared in another thread, what God wrote and Jesus wrote and taught is solely in the Bible. He didn't separate Christian and Jew which writers later developed after His death. The dispensations of Christians and Jews in Trotter's message fails to point to Ephesians 2:14-16, 3:6, Galatians 3:28 which should have been the verb of his message. Therefore, Trotter lost his audience.

netchaplain, there is some credibility to what you point in Scripture, but the bigger picture is Christ reconciled and brought both or all groups into a single Body of Believers. This is what I'm discerning is being overlooked in this discussion.

God bless you, Bob, for sharing and everyone else here.

Bob





 
The Bible contains numerous promises regarding the physical and spiritual restoration of Israel. Key passages include Amos 9:14-15, which guarantees God will plant them in their land never to be uprooted; Ezekiel 36:24-28, detailing a geographical return and a spiritual renewal; and Romans 11:25-27, where the Apostle Paul outlines that "all Israel will be saved".
These texts encompass two main types of restoration: geographical (returning to the land) and spiritual (turning back to God). -Reddit

Key Geographical Restoration Verses
    • Isaiah 11:11-12: The Lord promises to raise a banner and recover the remnant of His people from the "four corners of the earth".
    • Jeremiah 30:3: God declares He will bring Israel and Judah back from captivity to the land given to their ancestors.
    • Amos 9:14-15: God promises to rebuild ruined cities and firmly plant Israel on their land, so they will "never again be uprooted".

Key Spiritual Restoration Verses
    • Ezekiel 11:19-20: God promises to give the people a "new heart" and put a new spirit within them, turning them away from sin and toward His laws. [1]
    • Zechariah 12:10: A prophecy describing a future spiritual awakening, where the people will look upon the one they have pierced and mourn for Him. [1]
    • Romans 11:26-27: Paul explains that a partial hardening has come over Israel until the Gentiles come in, after which "all Israel will be saved". [1, 2] -YouTube
You still have not answered what I asked. I never said God has abandoned Israel or that Israel has no future restoration. Romans 11 makes it clear that God is not finished with Israel. The question is whether the Bible teaches that Christians inherit the New Heaven, Israel inherits the New Earth, and Israel will always be God’s people but never His children.

None of the verses you copied from Reddit and YouTube says that. Amos 9 speaks about Israel being planted in the land. Ezekiel 36 speaks about cleansing, a new heart, and God putting His Spirit within them. Romans 11 speaks about Israel being saved and their sins being taken away. Those verses teach restoration and salvation. They do not teach two eternally separated classes of redeemed people.

Your claim that Israel will always be God’s people but never His children is directly contradicted by Scripture.

“Ye are the sons of the living God.” Hosea 1:10

“Doubtless thou art our father.” Isaiah 63:16

“As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” John 1:12

That includes every Israelite who receives Jesus Christ.

Paul also says, “Ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:26. He does not say Gentile believers become children while believing Israelites remain permanent servants.

Revelation 21 says the New Jerusalem comes “down from God out of heaven” and that “the tabernacle of God is with men.” Revelation 21:2–3

It does not say Christians live forever in the New Heaven while Israel lives forever on the New Earth.

So please stop posting lists of verses that do not address the claim you made. Show the verse that actually says Christians inherit the New Heaven, Israel inherits the New Earth, and Israel will never be God’s children.

If you cannot show it from Scripture, then admit that it is your interpretation, not something the Bible actually says.
 
Marilyn, neither of those claims is actually stated anywhere in Scripture. God’s promise that Abraham’s descendants would be “as the stars of heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore” is about number. Genesis 22:17 plainly says, “I will multiply thy seed.” It does not say the stars represent one heavenly inheritance and the sand represents another earthly inheritance. That is being read into the text.

The claim that the Body of Christ will be “further up in the third heaven” also needs a verse. Where does the Bible say that? Hebrews 11 says Abraham looked for “a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God,” and that the faithful desired “a better country, that is, an heavenly” Hebrews 11:10, 16. It does not divide God’s redeemed people into different eternal levels.

Revelation 21 is also very clear. The angel says, “Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife” Revelation 21:9. John is then shown the New Jerusalem. You cannot brush that aside by saying it is only “as a bride,” because the angel directly calls it “the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”

The city has the names of the twelve tribes of Israel on the gates and the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb on the foundations Revelation 21:12–14. That shows unity, not two separate eternal peoples placed in different heavenly locations.

The discussion about eros and agape misses the point. No one is saying Christ’s love for His people is sexual. The bride language speaks of union, love, faithfulness, and belonging. Paul says, “Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it” Ephesians 5:25.

The real question is simple. Where does Scripture teach this two-inheritance system? Stars, sand, cities, and bride imagery do not give us permission to build doctrines the Bible never states.
Hi bdavidc:


Actually there are 3 inheritances.

Hebrews gives us more detail of 2 inheritances - Body of Christ AND the Old Testament Saints. In Heb. 12: 22 24 we read of Father God, Jesus and the angels in the third heaven. With them is the Body of Christ (church) AND the Old Testament Saints, just men.

``...you have come to Mount Zion AND to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, AND to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus...`(Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

So straight away we see that there is the Body of Christ (church) AND the Old Testament Saints. Two distinct groups that God has purposes for. All in God`s great kingdom but given different places for their responsibility.

So, we ask, `What are the two different places mentioned in this scripture.

`...you have come to MOUNT ZION and the CITY of the living God...` (Heb. 12: 22)

MOUNT ZION - on earth was where Israel`s kings ruled from. In heaven it represents where the Father has set His Son, Jesus as King.

Ì (Father God) have set my King on Zion, my holy hill...`(Ps. 2: 6)

This is where the Body of Christ will rule with Jesus. This is our inheritance on the Lord`s throne in the third heaven.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...`(Rev. 3: 21)

CITY (New Jerusalem) - This city comes down out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21: 2) In it are the Old Testament Saints who were promised that they would inherit this city.

`But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a CITY for THEM.`(Heb. 11: 16)

So we read of 2 different groups - Body of Christ and Old Testament Saints who have been promised two different places for their inheritance -

Body of Christ - on Mount Zion, the Lord`s throne in the third heaven.

Old Testament Saints - the City, which comes down out of heaven from God.
 
I shared in another thread, what God wrote and Jesus wrote and taught is solely in the Bible. He didn't separate Christian and Jew which writers later developed after His death.
True Bob, God brought together all who believe in the Lord Jesus, but this issue isn't related to Christianity, but to His "people Israel." I'm not sure why God isn't more clear about Israel's eschatology in Scripture than what is available, but there is much Scripture to infer to this subject. Fortunately this subject is not required for salvation, but I believe is for growth.
 
“Ye are the sons of the living God.” Hosea 1:10
Sometimes this phrase is seen is Scripture, but it comes more by way of a type of an "adoption" in Hosea 1:10: "Not only that they are "the people of God," but have a superior privilege, a greater character, and a higher relation, the sons of the living God; the sons of God, not by nature, as Christ; nor by creation, as angels; nor by office, as civil magistrates; or by profession merely, as nominal Christians; but by adopting grace." -John Gil / https://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary/john-gill/hosea/1

To be a child of God by Christ requires Christianity! That's why we do not see in the OT any phrasing of Israel being "children of God" but "children of Israel," or of Jacob. God's "people" will eventually and finally be brought back to God's fellowship.
“Doubtless thou art our father.” Isaiah 63:16
This phrasing is also rare in the OT and is why the small "f" is used and not the capital form "F;" which would designate being of Christ.
“As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” John 1:12
This is in reference to Christ, as everyone who is a Christian is a child of the Father.
Revelation 21 says the New Jerusalem comes “down from God out of heaven” and that “the tabernacle of God is with men.” Revelation 21:2–3

It does not say Christians live forever in the New Heaven while Israel lives forever on the New Earth.
I believe the New Jerusalem might be like a meeting place for Christians and the people of God. I admit there is mot much direct and clear language for these issues, but I believe there is much Scriptural inference to it!
 
Hi bdavidc:


Actually there are 3 inheritances.

Hebrews gives us more detail of 2 inheritances - Body of Christ AND the Old Testament Saints. In Heb. 12: 22 24 we read of Father God, Jesus and the angels in the third heaven. With them is the Body of Christ (church) AND the Old Testament Saints, just men.

``...you have come to Mount Zion AND to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, AND to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus...`(Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

So straight away we see that there is the Body of Christ (church) AND the Old Testament Saints. Two distinct groups that God has purposes for. All in God`s great kingdom but given different places for their responsibility.

So, we ask, `What are the two different places mentioned in this scripture.

`...you have come to MOUNT ZION and the CITY of the living God...` (Heb. 12: 22)

MOUNT ZION - on earth was where Israel`s kings ruled from. In heaven it represents where the Father has set His Son, Jesus as King.

Ì (Father God) have set my King on Zion, my holy hill...`(Ps. 2: 6)

This is where the Body of Christ will rule with Jesus. This is our inheritance on the Lord`s throne in the third heaven.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne...`(Rev. 3: 21)

CITY (New Jerusalem) - This city comes down out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21: 2) In it are the Old Testament Saints who were promised that they would inherit this city.

`But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a CITY for THEM.`(Heb. 11: 16)

So we read of 2 different groups - Body of Christ and Old Testament Saints who have been promised two different places for their inheritance -

Body of Christ - on Mount Zion, the Lord`s throne in the third heaven.

Old Testament Saints - the City, which comes down out of heaven from God.
You are still reading your system into the text instead of letting the text speak.

Hebrews 12:22 does not say Mount Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem are two different locations for two different groups. It says believers have come “unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.” These are connected descriptions of the same heavenly reality, not separate inheritances.

The passage also never says the “church of the firstborn” lives on Mount Zion while the “spirits of just men made perfect” live in the city. You inserted that division. The text places everyone together before God and Jesus in one great heavenly assembly.

Your claim that the Church will sit on Christ’s throne “in the third heaven” is still unsupported. Revelation 3:21 says believers will sit with Christ on His throne. It does not say that throne is a separate inheritance in the third heaven, nor does it exclude Old Testament saints.

Hebrews 11:16 says God prepared a city for the faithful, but that city is not limited to Old Testament saints. Hebrews was written to Christians, and Hebrews 13:14 says, “For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.”

Revelation 21 settles the matter. The New Jerusalem contains the names of the twelve tribes of Israel on its gates and the names of the twelve apostles on its foundations. That is one city containing the full testimony of God’s redeemed people, not two groups separated into different levels of heaven.

Paul says believers are “no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God” Ephesians 2:19. He does not say one group receives the city while another group lives above it.

You began by claiming there are three inheritances, but you have still not produced one verse that actually states even two separate eternal inheritances. You are taking Mount Zion, the city, the throne, the stars, and the sand, then assigning meanings and locations that Scripture itself never assigns.

Repeating an interpretation does not turn it into Scripture. Where the Bible does not divide God’s redeemed people, we have no authority to do it.
 
Sometimes this phrase is seen is Scripture, but it comes more by way of a type of an "adoption" in Hosea 1:10: "Not only that they are "the people of God," but have a superior privilege, a greater character, and a higher relation, the sons of the living God; the sons of God, not by nature, as Christ; nor by creation, as angels; nor by office, as civil magistrates; or by profession merely, as nominal Christians; but by adopting grace." -John Gil / https://www.christianity.com/bible/commentary/john-gill/hosea/1

To be a child of God by Christ requires Christianity! That's why we do not see in the OT any phrasing of Israel being "children of God" but "children of Israel," or of Jacob. God's "people" will eventually and finally be brought back to God's fellowship.

This phrasing is also rare in the OT and is why the small "f" is used and not the capital form "F;" which would designate being of Christ.

This is in reference to Christ, as everyone who is a Christian is a child of the Father.

I believe the New Jerusalem might be like a meeting place for Christians and the people of God. I admit there is mot much direct and clear language for these issues, but I believe there is much Scriptural inference to it!
You just admitted the real problem yourself when you said, “there is not much direct and clear language for these issues.” Then stop presenting them as biblical doctrine.

You claimed the Old Testament never calls Israel the children of God. That is simply false.

“Ye are the children of the LORD your God.” Deuteronomy 14:1

“Israel is my son, even my firstborn.” Exodus 4:22

“I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.” Isaiah 1:2

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.” Hosea 11:1

The Bible settles that plainly. Quoting John Gill does not change what Scripture actually says.

Your argument about the lowercase “f” in Isaiah 63:16 proves nothing. The verse says, “Doubtless thou art our father.” Israel called God their Father. You cannot dismiss the words of Scripture because of capitalization in an English translation.

John 1:12 says everyone who receives Christ becomes a child of God. That includes both Jews and Gentiles. It does not teach that believing Israelites remain only God’s people but can never be His children.

You also said the New Jerusalem “might be like a meeting place.” That is speculation. Revelation 21 never calls it a meeting place. It calls it “the bride, the Lamb’s wife” and says, “the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them” Revelation 21:9, 3.

This is the problem. You keep using words like “might be,” symbols, and inference to build doctrines the Bible never clearly teaches. Scripture warns us “not to think of men above that which is written” 1 Corinthians 4:6.

You are not proving your doctrine from Scripture. You are filling in the Bible’s silence with your own ideas. If the Bible does not clearly teach three eternal inheritances, separate heavenly levels, or the New Jerusalem as a meeting place, then you have no authority to teach those things as truth.
 
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