Tithing - A Systematic Study

the spell checks errors was i hit a o instead of a i i wasn't watching my key board real close. besides i speak not write or type. it really wasn't that hard to figure out. besides it was my first mistake of the year . i have to wonder if peter ever spelled wrong him being a fisherman
I am not trying to make you defensive but in fact trying to help you.

But the conversation was not about Peter. I am simply asking you to post your thoughts in a clear manner so we can understand what "YOU" are saying.

The truth is that It is actually not up to anyone to "figure out" what anyone is saying my friend.

All of us here make a real effort to "Watch our keyboards" so that others can easily read what we are saying.

As for " besides i speak not write or type.". That also is not germane as YOU are in fact writing by typing on a keyboard.
 
its not that impossible other than i used a o where i should used a i . my post is plain and clear odder dan dat it loos pretty good lol.
And this ............"its not that impossible other than i used a o where i should used a i . my post is plain and clear odder dan dat it loos pretty good."

Is exactly the perfect example of what I was telling you. NO ONE knows what you just said!!!!!!!:(
 
I am not trying to make you defensive but in fact trying to help you.

But the conversation was not about Peter. I am simply asking you to post your thoughts in a clear manner so we can understand what "YOU" are saying.

The truth is that It is actually not up to anyone to "figure out" what anyone is saying my friend.

All of us here make a real effort to "Watch our keyboards" so that others can easily read what we are saying.

As for " besides i speak not write or type.". That also is not germane as YOU are in fact writing by typing on a keyboard.

So, what you're saying then, Major, is that anything worth saying at all is worth saying clearly?

What if I WANT to be cryptic, and therefore keep everyone off balance?

...oh, never mind. I do that already...:rolleyes:

MM
 
So, what you're saying then, Major, is that anything worth saying at all is worth saying clearly?

What if I WANT to be cryptic, and therefore keep everyone off balance?

...oh, never mind. I do that already...:rolleyes:

MM

Yes. If it is worth saying then it is worth saying correctly and clearly!

To me it falls under the same thing that God said in Colossians 3:23.......
"So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."
 
Yes. If it is worth saying then it is worth saying correctly and clearly!

To me it falls under the same thing that God said in Colossians 3:23.......
"So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."
aww so the 13th commandant and 14th thou shalt have proper grammar 14 thou shalt have no typos. i have also learned its the poster..not the post :rolleyes:
 
Yes. If it is worth saying then it is worth saying correctly and clearly!

To me it falls under the same thing that God said in Colossians 3:23.......
"So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."
does two typos i think it was bother you that bad? of so i am sorry it does. se i am not perfect i make mistakes shoot some of the names in the Bible i don't pronounce right . curious do you give lessons on perfection ? if so please sign me
 
A church organization my wife noticed the other day, and that I had not heard of until she pointed it out, has an interesting name. It's called the "Evidence Church."

I thought, "Hmm. Maybe they're heavy into apologetics type of ministry. Sounds like my kind of place..."

NOT!

We looked at their belief page, and their site states this:

"Tithing · God commanded tithes and offerings in the Old Testament; Jesus Christ endorsed it in the Gospel (Matthew 23:23), and the apostle Paul said, "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him" (I Corinthians 16:2a)."
(https://evidence.church/what-we-believe)

To say that Yeshua 'endorsed' tithing is a tremendous deception. It's not a lie, but rather a deceptive use of key words that manipulate people's thinking.

Matthew 23:23-24

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

It's MOST interesting how false teachers draw attention to obscure items within a context such as this, and completely leave out all the other matters within that context that complete the portrait. Dare I ask that same false teacher if he leaves out other key elements when it comes to the salvation message, and he would decry such a practice, but when it comes to getting money out of the people, that's where the ethical meandering begins.

Now, for starters, please observe with me the putting on of the critical thinking cap. Let's look at the verses I copied into this post. When we read it, what all is actually said, to whom was it said, when was it said, what's the setting, and what are ALL the elements discussed therein?

What was said that goes ignored by false teachers for tithing requirements to the local '(c)hurch' is that Yeshua ALSO spoke of the 'weightier matters of the Law." Hmm. That false teacher missed all those items by completely glossing over them in order to fixate upon the ONE item that puts money into the coffers. The weightier matters of which Yeshua actually mentioned were...what? Yes. "...judgement, mercy, and faith..."

That (c)hurch's teaching along this line, being akin to so many others, violates the very weightier matters of which Yeshua spoke. Where is the judgement between truth and falsehood in their teaching about the tithe? Where is their mercy toward those who won't tithe to them, when much of the time they are berated as robbers of God. Where is their own faith in God providing if, in fact, God were the One who was behind the formation of that (c)hurch? Why not trust in the Lord to provide the support they need rather than to brow-beat the people with deceptive and false teaching?

To whom was it spoken? Quite clearly, it was addressed to the very people who were STILL under the Law at the time Yeshua spoke those words to the religious leaders. The Cup of the New Covenant had not yet been passed on to the hand of man from the Hnad of our Lord and Savior who fulfilled that Law. Yes, one need only read the OT Law, how it defined the tithe, and to what the tithe was directly tied...yes, the temple. Recall that the veil of that temple was ripped from top to bottom, exposing the Holy of Holies AND putting an end to things built by the hands of men as the dwelling place of the Lord, and an end to the priesthood that collected the tithe from ranchers, flockmen and herdsmen and vineyard owners. This answer the 'to whom' and the 'when'.

The setting was in the midst of a teaching session for the disciples and a show to the people as to what hypocrites the scribes and pharasees were, which now covers the elements discussed as well, other than the sheer greed, depicted in how they swallowed camels, and strained out a gnat.

So, the circus of false teaching is still alive and well, even in new up-start organizations, beating the people over the heads with scriptures taken completely out of context and misapplied.

Guess this will continue until all these organizations are forced by the iron fits of might from political powers to hold to the politically allowed preaching from their pulpits. Those who won't, they will have to go underground once again.

MM
 

bobinfaith

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Senior Moderator
A church organization my wife noticed the other day, and that I had not heard of until she pointed it out, has an interesting name. It's called the "Evidence Church." I thought, "Hmm. Maybe they're heavy into apologetics type of ministry. Sounds like my kind of place..."
NOT!
We looked at their belief page, and their site states this:

"Tithing · God commanded tithes and offerings in the Old Testament; Jesus Christ endorsed it in the Gospel (Matthew 23:23), and the apostle Paul said, "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him" (I Corinthians 16:2a)."
(https://evidence.church/what-we-believe)

To say that Yeshua 'endorsed' tithing is a tremendous deception. It's not a lie, but rather a deceptive use of key words that manipulate people's thinking. Guess this will continue until all these organizations are forced by the iron fits of might from political powers to hold to the politically allowed preaching from their pulpits. Those who won't, they will have to go underground once again.
MM

Hello Musicmaster;

After reading your post it saddened me to see how happy the members looked on their website. The reason why is after I reviewed their core beliefs I discern most of their members do not know the true doctrine of this new church plant.

Jesus
endorsing the tithes and offerings in the Gospel is erroneous and struck a nerve with me. Jesus teaches, speaks and commands, but He doesn't endorse. Endorse whom? Did someone make a suggestion to God leading Him to endorse and add it to the Bible?

I know that
one key word may not seem a big deal but this is where the deception and manipulation can lead others from the Truth becoming a disease that can infiltrate others from one's witness of the Gospel.

How many truly pray and refer to Scriptures before searching for a new church, take the time to meet with the pastor face to face, and present the accountability questions?

I feel you folks did your research about this new church plant and to me this is a good teaching for others before making an important decision where a family is led to worship.

I know there is more to this but I wanted to respond in short for now.

God bless
you, MM, and thank you for bringing this out in the open.





 
Sorry I haven't really been reading all the posts in this thread, but I was wondering, how do you tithe mint?

I have plenty of it growing in my garden, especially the applemint variety. Do I just give every tenth leaf?
If I gave you some runners, you can just plant them in the church yard and it will quickly take over.
 

bobinfaith

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Senior Moderator
Sorry I haven't really been reading all the posts in this thread, but I was wondering, how do you tithe mint?

I have plenty of it growing in my garden, especially the applemint variety. Do I just give every tenth leaf?
If I gave you some runners, you can just plant them in the church yard and it will quickly take over.

Hello, Lanolin;

The mint was a sweet perfume or used for medicinal purposes. I can't elaborate because I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to plants, flowers, fruit and vegetables. But Jesus mentioned the tithe mint as one way of giving a favorable food stuff.

In today's times I never gave an apple in the offering basket but have donated food many, many times in the community.
 
there will always be hirelings . wife gparents said they belonged to church sent notice out if you had not payed in specific amount. o will say this one more time the tithe is between you and the Lord and yes the tithe can help support the church . we had a good size offering this week from a family that had not been to church in several weeks. they are truck drivers .

i have those in church that gives fairly and those who dont have much to give.. one week i had offering of 39.00 you cant operate on that.. But the Lord takes care of us. times we are low in offering. but we manage our funds as they come in.. I dont fleece the flock on giving or tithing. i tell them as our numbers come up our offering will to .

we are a small church since i been there .. we put a new heat and air unit in cost over 5 thousand paid cash money. part of that was tithe money . we help others as we can
 
In NZ, we have GST and the tax on goods and services is now 15%.

We also have PAYE (pay as you earn) and Kiwisaver. So a lot of money comes out of our pay already to the govt. The more you earn the more tax you pay, which is fair, (up to 33%) but I don't think the lowest income earners should pay tax as thats taking a huge chunk out of their living expenses.

But the thing is with rich people who are clever with money, they can hide their earnings in offshore accounts where it won't be taxed, and also income from extra houses like rental income and capital gains from buying and selling houses, were not taxed.

I imagine that in OT times, how God wanted Israel to run, the tithe was like a tax or a sub so the priests could look after the temple, along with offerings and sacrifices. That was their administration at the time. Of course, when the Israelites lost their land and God left the temple, they couldn't justify it anymore. Plus Romans took over.

I'm not sure why churches then ask a tithe of everyone (every week?) like it's more than what most of us can afford since already paying enough tax as it is. Its ok if you are wealthy, it's probably nothing but for those on lower incomes seems like a slap in the face. Especially when employers are not willing to pay you any more, even to cover cost of inflation.
 
Sorry I haven't really been reading all the posts in this thread, but I was wondering, how do you tithe mint?

I have plenty of it growing in my garden, especially the applemint variety. Do I just give every tenth leaf?
If I gave you some runners, you can just plant them in the church yard and it will quickly take over.

You simply take 1/10th of the harvest from it and plop it into the passing offering basket. THAT is somewhat similar to what's taught in the Law.

MM
 
Hello Musicmaster;

After reading your post it saddened me to see how happy the members looked on their website. The reason why is after I reviewed their core beliefs I discern most of their members do not know the true doctrine of this new church plant.

Jesus
endorsing the tithes and offerings in the Gospel is erroneous and struck a nerve with me. Jesus teaches, speaks and commands, but He doesn't endorse. Endorse whom? Did someone make a suggestion to God leading Him to endorse and add it to the Bible?

I know that
one key word may not seem a big deal but this is where the deception and manipulation can lead others from the Truth becoming a disease that can infiltrate others from one's witness of the Gospel.

How many truly pray and refer to Scriptures before searching for a new church, take the time to meet with the pastor face to face, and present the accountability questions?

I feel you folks did your research about this new church plant and to me this is a good teaching for others before making an important decision where a family is led to worship.

I know there is more to this but I wanted to respond in short for now.

God bless
you, MM, and thank you for bringing this out in the open.






It would be interesting to show up there and just gauge the atmosphere in that place, and see how many people are actually attending.

You're right. It's sad that there are pharasees out there running churches with a following, and who are placing their followers under bondage of the Law once again, which is exactly the people to whom Jesus spoke when He "endorsed" the Law that false teachers today enslave people who would otherwise, possibly, be free.

Good to see you back, brother.

Blessings to you and yours.

Love you all.

MM
 
Hello Musicmaster;

After reading your post it saddened me to see how happy the members looked on their website. The reason why is after I reviewed their core beliefs I discern most of their members do not know the true doctrine of this new church plant.

Jesus
endorsing the tithes and offerings in the Gospel is erroneous and struck a nerve with me. Jesus teaches, speaks and commands, but He doesn't endorse. Endorse whom? Did someone make a suggestion to God leading Him to endorse and add it to the Bible?

I know that
one key word may not seem a big deal but this is where the deception and manipulation can lead others from the Truth becoming a disease that can infiltrate others from one's witness of the Gospel.

How many truly pray and refer to Scriptures before searching for a new church, take the time to meet with the pastor face to face, and present the accountability questions?

I feel you folks did your research about this new church plant and to me this is a good teaching for others before making an important decision where a family is led to worship.

I know there is more to this but I wanted to respond in short for now.

God bless
you, MM, and thank you for bringing this out in the open.






You know, Bob. I'll give that false teaching preacher at least SOME credit. Jesus DID endorse tithing for those people who, at that time, were still under the lawful requirements to tithe (which had nothing to do with money)...contrary to us today and ever since the cross. As you know, THAT is the false element to that teaching for today. We can observe that, even though the Pharisees and scribes all had money, Jesus said nothing to them about tithing from their money, but from the produce from their gardens. This too is yet another observation people must make, in reference to what it NOT said in relation to what is taught today, and falsely so.

MM
 
I just sent this off to that 'pastor' at that church organization referenced above. We shall see if he responds, and with what:

"Hello, Jason.

I drove past the building where you all meet while getting gas across the street, and saw the name on the building, and thought I'd check out your site.

The name of your organization on the building gave me the impression that you all are geared toward scriptural apologetics, and so that piqued my interest.

While perusing the organizational website, I noticed the statement, "Tithing · God commanded tithes and offerings in the Old Testament; Jesus Christ endorsed it in the Gospel (Matthew 23:23), and the apostle Paul said, "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him" (I Corinthians 16:2a)."

As a biblical apologist, the topic of the tithe has interested me for many years. Your site pointed out Matthew 23:23:

Matthew 23:23-24 KJV] 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

If I may, having studied many items of historic practices and lifestyles, I noted what is not said in the words that Jesus spoke, which is that He never said anything to the Pharisees and scribes about them tithing from their money. They did, after all, have money, and lots of it, and Jesus addressed only the tenth from the produce from their gardens. The OT tithe, in totality, never had anything to do with earned, monetary wages. Where I do indeed agree with folks supporting the place where they are fed and are expected to be supporting members, the tithe, apart from the tenth of the tenth, was all used for meeting the personal needs of the Levites, priests, orphans, widows and strangers in the land, never for the temple upkeep.

Some have pointed me toward what Abraham did with the spoils of which he intentionally returned to the rightful owners from whom it was all stolen, apart from the tenth handed over to Melchizedek, and the portion for his valiant men who fought with him. What they failed to notice is that Abraham, being a man who was a far cut above the rest of all the riff-raff of his day, did not consider the spoils to be his own personal property...not that the text ever indicates to us, given that he intentionally returned it all to those from whom it was stolen, as any of us should do if we find a wallet stolen from someone else (for example). It's just the Christian thing to do. Besides, Israel never did follow Abraham's example of handing over a tenth of spoils of war to the priests.

So, what I wonder is, do you teach your followers the whole truth about the OT tithe and what Abraham actually did? There are far too many false narratives out there about the subject of the tithe, such as the lack of observing that Jesus, in Matthew 23, was addressing a people who were still under the law, and thus lawfully required to continue the tithe...at least, until the Cup of the New Covenant was passed to mankind through the apostles.

As an apologist, this is important to me while I search for a possible group to join with. The pursuit of ALL truth is absolutely important to me, and the many false teachings surrounding topics like the tithe requirement has shown to me the great divide between those who teach falsehoods, without any shame whatsoever, and thus are too proud to be subject to other believers who call them out on the carpet for their false teachings:

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, ALL [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. [Emphasis mine.]"

MM
 
Here's today's response from Jason, and my response back to him:

"On Tuesday, May 17, 2022, 11:33:30 AM CDT, Jason Bruns <XXXXXXXXXXX> wrote:
Hello XXXXXXX,

Thank you for your email. I’ll be glad to discuss with you more about this in person, or over the phone.

I’m not sure where you saw tithing on our website. Could you put me to that place?

But yes I do believe in giving to the church. I think a tithe is a great place to start.

I don’t put people under the law as far as telling them it is necessary to be right with God. But I do think that we should give to God. There are far to me scriptures in the Bible That tell us to give.

Once again I’ll be glad to visit with you more about this over the phone or in person.

Thanks for reaching out!"

END
========================

The senior 'pastor' doesn't even know what's on his own organization's website? :confused: That would be quite concerning to me...


My response:


=========================
"Greetings, Jason.

The page where it talks about Jesus endorsing tithing is at the following link to your organization's website that I quoted verbatim:

https://evidence.church/what-we-believe

I fully agree that Jesus did indeed endorse tithing. Please don't get me wrong. It's just that the distinction is that He was addressing a people who, at that time, were still under the lawful requirement to tithe, even from the increase from their gardens. That belief statement didn't establish that distinction. Giving and the tithe are not at all the same thing, because the OT tithe, again, never had anything to do with earned, negotiated, monetary wages. Not even Jesus tithed since He did not own any producing lands or livestock. Not even fishermen were required to tithe from their daily catch, nor carpenters from what they made with their own hands.

So, giving and tithing as defined in scripture are not the same thing, and for anyone to tell another modern believer such things as, "A tenth is a good starting point..." That's an intrusion and its an attempt at taking captive the hearts and minds of the gullible. Paul of Tarsus said this about our giving:

2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

It's about attitude, not percentages. Fixating on a percentage, even in a suggestive manner, is an undermining of the freedom each one has in Christ, and it foists, perhaps inadvertently in some cases, a measure of guilt, intended or not, upon the gullible listener.

So, where I personally am concerned, I give first and foremost, to meet the needs of people, not buildings, lawn care, programs and all the other stuff church organizations and their members lavish upon themselves as luxuries. The line of distinction between necessities and luxuries have been greatly smeared with all manner of false teaching and intellectual intrigue. So, were I to join up with your organization, my giving to it would likely not ever come close to the level of a tenth of my income since there are far greater priorities in meeting needs than for something from which I would personally benefit. We can give of time and talent, as I'm sure you would agree.

Now you know where I stand personally as a biblicist. The Bible defines for us ALL what should be our priorities in giving, and handing it all over to local organizations, most of which are known to expend the majority of it all on the facility, bills, lawn care, staffing, etc., no. That is not giving to God. When I give to the poor man, woman, family, etc., needing groceries for survival, THAT is giving to God with no earthly return and benefit to me as the giver. THAT is a part of storing up treasure in Heaven. Also, giving to meet the needs of the itinerant minister of the Gospel out there pounding the dirt and pavement to bring the Gospel to unbelievers, THOSE are the direction of my primary giving, not to support luxuries from which I personally benefit. A number of local 'pastors' have told me that they have no use for me becoming a member if I don't hand it all over to them, with only the remainder of what's left for me to give going elsewhere as I so choose."

END
=========================

Something just doesn't set right with me when a 'pastor' doesn't even know what his own website says to the world around him. When delegation gets to the point that one can disavow responsibility for what is disseminated to the public, that's the mark of a man who isn't fit for leadership. However, in this case, perhaps he will state his agreement with what that statement says that I quoted to him from his site, which then shows the lack of understanding in the man and his blind followers. Christ's endorsement of the Law still being in effect for those people at that time, that doesn't at all translate over to us today, and using that as a basis for "giving" to him and his organization, no. That's just dead wrong.

MM
 
Top