U Die Then Go? Where?

[Brother Paul]

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life

And are we not to make our salvation sure? Is not salvation not only a moment bu also the end goal? Sadly many think they are saved but you shall know them by their fruits. I know some who claim they were ONCE SAVED (?) and now oppose God and do not even believe He is...but John says "If they went from us they were never one of us"...their alleged salvation was an illusion or a delusion but they were not born from above (like the five unwise virgins)....

And what is it to attain unto glory where there is honor with God? Is not to have Christ IN YOU and for you to be IN HIM? (back to Christ in you the hope or eager expectation of glory)....those who in earnest are seeking glory and honor before God know they have nothing of their own to offer and embrace/receive Christ....

 

[Major]

Amen brother...but they are also true aren't they, and cannot be removed or else no one can trust the word of God is actually God breathed and that leads to eliminating a whole slew of others and the whole of "faith" is a lark. For now each can pick and choose what fits their belief not knowing for sure which are true and which are false.

Yes sir. That was my point! We seem lately to have placed more truth in opinions and traditions of men than we do the Word of God.
Is that something you have observed or is it just me ????

 

[Major]

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life

And are we not to make our salvation sure? Is not salvation not only a moment bu also the end goal? Sadly many think they are saved but you shall know them by their fruits. I know some who claim they were ONCE SAVED (?) and now oppose God and do not even believe He is...but John says "If they went from us they were never one of us"...their alleged salvation was an illusion or a delusion but they were not born from above (like the five unwise virgins)....

And what is it to attain unto glory where there is honor with God? Is not to have Christ IN YOU and for you to be IN HIM? (back to Christ in you the hope or eager expectation of glory)....those who in earnest are seeking glory and honor before God know they have nothing of their own to offer and embrace/receive Christ....

As usual Paul, you are Biblically correct and because of that, I have no choice but to agree with you.

Speaking of our salvation it was Peter in his 2nd epistle, chapter 1 verse 10 who said........
"Wherefore the rather brethren, give diligence to make sure of your calling and election sure; for if ye do these things ye shall never fall".

 

[Major]

My dear brother, what Bible are you reading? God does not recognize the deeds of atheists or evil ones as "good" or "well":

• "Can an evil tree bring forth good fruit?"
• "Whatsoever that is without faith is sin"
• "Can any clean thing come from an unclean?"
• "The carnal mind is enmity with God. It is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
• "All our righteousness (right and well doing) is as filthy rags."

Please remember that "man looketh on the outward aopearance, but God looketh on the heart" and be careful not to call evil good. These seekers of immortality are not engaged in working for Christ's free gift of salvation - they are in Christ, performing the works that they were "created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

You are in fact agreeing with Bro. Paul my friend!!!

Every verse you posted is correct and I for one accept them and agree with you and IMO Bro. Paul does as well.

 

[Brother Paul]

Yes sir. That was my point! We seem lately to have placed more truth in opinions and traditions of men than we do the Word of God.
Is that something you have observed or is it just me ????

No I definitely have noticed because sadly I was of such a camp...defendinjg our denominational position was of utmost importance...then after much study of the arguments against, I found it was wanting in some areas ...not that the others were "the truth" but we were not really taking in the whole council of God and makng room for what appeared to be antagonistic passages (though they had developed clever answers).

 

[agua]

If the wicked lost do not live forever in the lake of fire, then at least two Bible verses need to be removed from the Bible.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and false prophet ARE, and shall be TORMENTED (past tense) day and night forever and ever".

20:14....(After the Great White Throne judgment of the wicked lost)
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".

Have you noticed that the beast and the false prophet have a dual personality ?

KJV And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Yes sir. That was my point! We seem lately to have placed more truth in opinions and traditions of men than we do the Word of God.
Is that something you have observed or is it just me ????

No I definitely have noticed because sadly I was of such a camp...defendinjg our denominational position was of utmost importance...then after much study of the arguments against, I found it was wanting in some areas ...not that the others were "the truth" but we were not really taking in the whole council of God and makng room for what appeared to be antagonistic passages (though they had developed clever answers).

I've noticed it's unlikely to have a good discussion on this subject with ECTers sticking to the subject matter.

 

[Phoneman777]

Actually what you said here does not contradict where I have been going with this at all, in fact, it confirms it. By no works of righteousness of our own have we been saved, but in His mercy....(Titus 3:3-8)....see how God calls these filthy rags by the same term (in Hebrew it is Tzedakah...good works, works of righteousness OF OUR OWN)....therefore all our good works cannot and do not earn us what is elsewhere called "eternal life"...it is the GIFT of God based on what Christ did not on what you do...but God can see the striving and the desire of this fallen man (when such a man strives and so desires) and perhaps it is these who He foreknows will respond appropriately when He initiates (by grace) the offer to come to Christ. I cannot however speak for God for His ways are higher than our ways....

You see brother (and I believe this is coming in from the Holy Spirit) many doctrinal understandings laid out in the Bible present themselves like unto two sides of a single coin (predestination and free will, faith and works, for two examples)....now when one does not take them all from both sides to be equally part of the truth and only emphasizes one side they can miss the greater truth that encompasses them both. The bottom line is that we KNOW we are not worthy and nothing we can do after we have sinned (and all have sinned) can merit, earn, or deserve, His free gift IN CHRIST. All else is commentary or arguments over the fine details involved. Now I am not saying this is not healthy for as they say Iron sharpens Iron and we all learn and grow fro such discussion, but if one set of passages (taken as separate from the whole council of God on a matter) is set against the other set of seemingly opposing passages, then that would mean the others are not also true and thus part of the scriptures are either a lie or are unreliable (God forbid!). We see this with passages like when God says "Choose" and suggests they choose life, are not the "totally incapable of choosing" camp in error? Does God not know what He is talking about? Does He make false promises? And if so can we trust any of the other promises?

My dear brother, you don't realize it, but although you say you believe that immortality cannot be bought with works, that is the very thing that you are claiming the seekers of immortality in Romans 2:8-10 have done!
By saying that the seekers are not saved, but by their good works and well doing they will receive Jesus and be granted immortality, you are essentially claiming that they have earned it.

I stand by my position that these seekers of immortality - said to be well doers and good workers - are engaged in bearing the fruit which springs forth from the heart that has already accepted the free gift of Jesus' salvation, because an unconverted heart can never bear such fruit, as evidenced by countless Bible verses like the ones in my last post. Jesus will grant these and all seekers of immortality eternal life when He raises them up from their mortal death in the First Resurrection.

 

[Major]

Have you noticed that the beast and the false prophet have a dual personality ?

KJV And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.





I've noticed it's unlikely to have a good discussion on this subject with ECTers sticking to the subject matter.

No to a dual personality. There are TWO totally different people. The 1st beast of Revelation 13 is the antichrist my brother.
The 2nd beast is the false prophet.

Please read and notice the words.
Rev. 13:11..........
"And I beheld ANOTHER beast coming up out of the earth.............."

The "False Prophet" is the religious beast who forces men to receive he Mark of the beast.

What is an ECTers????

Why can't we have a good discussion????

 

[Phoneman777]

You are in fact agreeing with Bro. Paul my friend!!!

Every verse you posted is correct and I for one accept them and agree with you and IMO Bro. Paul does as well.

Amen, brother, that's why we cannot consider the seekers of immortality in Romans 2:8-10 as not yet saved, but previously saved doers of well and good which God ordained that we should do as Christians (Eph. 2:10), and yet seeking the immortality which they will not be granted until "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...for the Lord shall descend...with the trumpet of God...the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality."

 

[Major]

T

No I definitely have noticed because sadly I was of such a camp...defendinjg our denominational position was of utmost importance...then after much study of the arguments against, I found it was wanting in some areas ...not that the others were "the truth" but we were not really taking in the whole council of God and makng room for what appeared to be antagonistic passages (though they had developed clever answers).

Then the answer is YES not NO. I agree with that!

 

[Major]

Amen, brother, that's why we cannot consider the seekers of immortality in Romans 2:8-10 as not yet saved, but previously saved doers of well and good which God ordained that we should do as Christians (Eph. 2:10), and yet seeking the immortality which they will not be granted until "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...for the Lord shall descend...with the trumpet of God...the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality."

Correct! See. I told you that there would be things we would agree on and you did not believe me!

 

[agua]

No to a dual personality. There are TWO totally different people. The 1st beast of Revelation 13 is the antichrist my brother.
The 2nd beast is the false prophet.

Please read and notice the words.
Rev. 13:11..........
"And I beheld ANOTHER beast coming up out of the earth.............."

The "False Prophet" is the religious beast who forces men to receive he Mark of the beast.

What is an ECTers????

Why can't we have a good discussion????

Firstly a good discussion is when we stick to the subject matter and don't resort to implying the opposing view is unwarranted or somehow anti Biblical. If you can't do this we can't have a good discussion. ECT = eternal conscious torment

Im not saying the beast and the false prophet are the same but that they both have 2 components. They are both men who are posessed by devils.

Rev 16:13-14 KJV And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

 

[Major]

Firstly a good discussion is when we stick to the subject matter and don't resort to implying the opposing view is unwarranted or somehow anti Biblical. If you can't do this we can't have a good discussion. ECT = eternal conscious torment

Im not saying the beast and the false prophet are the same but that they both have 2 components. They are both men who are posessed by devils.

Rev 16:13-14 KJV And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Please post the comment number where I imposed upon you a view that was not Biblical. If I some how insulted I am sorry. I never meant to do such a thing so the comment number will help me understand that.

It seemed to me that you were saying in #106 that.....well in your own words were....
"Have you noticed that the beast and the false prophet have a dual personality" ?

Are you saying that there is one or two beasts. Your comment is a little confusing.

OK....I read it a couple of times. I agree with you. They are men, humans overcome and possessed by Satan so that they are indistinguishable. I agree!!!!!

 

[agua]

Please post the comment number where I imposed upon you a view that was not Biblical. If I some how insulted I am sorry. I never meant to do such a thing so the comment number will help me understand that.

It seemed to me that you were saying in #106 that.....well in your own words were....
"Have you noticed that the beast and the false prophet have a dual personality" ?

Are you saying that there is one or two beasts. Your comment is a little confusing.

OK....I read it a couple of times. I agree with you. They are men, humans overcome and possessed by Satan so that they are indistinguishable. I agree!!!!!

Please post the comment number where I imposed upon you a view that was not Biblical. If I some how insulted I am sorry. I never meant to do such a thing so the comment number will help me understand that.

Post # 102 eg

Yes sir. That was my point! We seem lately to have placed more truth in opinions and traditions of men than we do the Word of God.
Is that something you have observed or is it just me ????

I don't believe these type of veiled insults are innocent but if you repent I accept your apology.

 

[Major]

Yes sir. That was my point! We seem lately to have placed more truth in opinions and traditions of men than we do the Word of God.
Is that something you have observed or is it just me ????

It is just YOU. My comment was not to you or about you or for you. You are reading something into nothing that has anything to do with you at all.

It seems to me you are looking for something that is not there because there is nothing to repent from. Have a wonderful life and may the Lord bless you.

 

[agua]

It is just YOU. My comment was not to you or about you or for you. You are reading something into nothing that has anything to do with you at all.

It seems to me you are looking for something that is not there because there is nothing to repent from. Have a wonderful life and may the Lord bless you.

Ok. I've seen this so many times on Christian Forums it has become tiresome. I don't trust your honesty nor sincerity.

 

[ModeratorTeam]

This topic has run it's course and the debating in this thread is going nowhere, so for the time being, the staff is closing it. We caution members to NOT start another thread on this topic without first sending a PM to the Administrator (HisManySongs) requesting permission. Any violation of this staff memo will result in discipline, including temporary or permanent bans.








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