Were There Humans In Heaven Before Jesus Ascended.

Major

Major

Supporter
John 3:13..........
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

The answer is Yes and NO! In the Scripture above, Jesus is saying that no person has ever gone to heaven and returned.

The question asked then should actually be......has anyone died as a human and gone to heaven before Jesus. ?????

NO!

However, 2 men have been "Translated" from earth to heaven. Another word for that is "Rapture". Their "SPIRITS" were snached by God.
1. Enoch
2. Elijah

So then......did Enoch die. ???? IMHO opinion YES!
But it is important to note in Hebrews 11 that there are two different Greek words for death in verse 5 and verse 13. The Greek word for death in verse 5 is-
1. thanatos, and it refers to the process of dying due to disease.
2. apothnesko is the Greek word for “died” and in verse 13 it is apothnesko, which refers to physical death.

This helps us understand that verse 5 tells us that Enoch did not experience the death process. God snatched Enoch’s spirit away.

“Did Elijah die?” “Yes, his mortal body died when he was taken to heaven in a chariot in a whirlwind.” Only his spirit went to heaven.

Remember, when we read the faith chapter of Hebrews 11 we see............
A plain reading of Hebrews 11:13 seems to say that Enoch actually did experience death.
"All these died in faith, without receiving the promises . . . "!
 
Could you address Abraham's bosom, Lazarus and the rich man? Also the thief on the cross that Jesus said that they would be in paradise.
Jesus states that God is the God of the living, meaning Abraham is alive and not dead.
 
Hello Big Moose;

I did a word study about what you are trying to talk about here are the results

Taking a look at the word Sheol,

Sheol (7585), The 65 occurrences of this word are distributed throughout every period of Biblical Hebrew.

First, the word means the state of death :"For in death there I no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? (Psalms 6:5cf Psalms 18:5). It is the final resting place of all men: "They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment god own to the grave. (John 21:13). Hanah confused that it was the omnipotent God who brings mean to sheol (death) or kills them (1 Samuel 2:6). "Sheol is parallel to Hebrew words for "pit" or "hell" (Job 26:6), ,"corruption" or "decay" (Psalms 16:10), and "destruction" (Proverbs 15:11).

Second, "Sheol" is used of a place of conscious existence after death. In the first biblical appearances of the word Jacob said that he would "go down into the grave unto my son mourning" (Genesis 37:35). All men go to "Sheol"-- a place and state of consciousness after death (Psalms 16:10). The wicked receive punishment there (Numbers 16:30, Deuteronomy 32:33; Psalms 9:17). They are put to shame and silenced in "Sheol" (Psalms 31:17). Jesus alluded to Isaiah's use of Sheol - (Isaiah 14:13-15) in pronouncing judgement on Capernaum (Matthew 11:23), translating "Sheol as "Hades" or "Hell", meaning the place of conscious existence and judgement. It is an undesirable place for the wicked (Job 24:19) and a refuge for the righteous (Job 14:13). Thus "Sheol" is also a place of reward for the righteous (Hosea 13:14; cf 1 Corinthians 15:55). Jesus teaching in Luke 16:19-31 seems to reflect accurately the Old Testament concept of Sheol; it is a place of conscious existence after death, one side of which is occupied by the suffering, unrighteous dead separated by a great chasm from the other side peopled by the righteous dead enjoying their reward.

I personally do not believe anyone goes here today (if others do that is fine) - but instead go to what is described by John in Revelation 21-22.

The credit goes to Vines Exo. Dic. Hebrew and Greek Words : Hope this helps you.
 
Big Moose said:
Could you address Abraham's bosom, Lazarus and the rich man? Also the thief on the cross that Jesus said that they would be in paradise.
Jesus states that God is the God of the living, meaning Abraham is alive and not dead.
Click to expand...
Glad to do it brother.

PARADISE was the side of Hades/Sheol = Hell in which the spirits of the believers went to before Jesus came/ or ABRAHAMS Bosom.

TORMENTS was the other side of that same place and it was where the spirits of the lost went to and they are still there.

Luke 16:22...........
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."
To the thief on the cross Jesus said in Luke 23:43..........
"Today you will be with Me in Paradise".

Abraham's SPIRIT is alive and well and the place he was in is where Jesus went to meet with the thief.

When Jesus assended to heaven He took all the saints in PARADISE with Him to heaven.

Ephesians 4:8 (ESV)
“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”

Today........Paradise side of Hades/Sheol/Hell is empty.

Today the spirit of the saved man goes to heaven.

The TORMENTS side of Hell is still full waiting on Revelation 21 and the Great WHite Throne Judgment. It is at that time which is AFTER the 1000 year rule of Christ that all in TORMENTS will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
 
Damascus said:
I thought the Book of Revelation tells us no one is yet in heaven or hell because they've not yet been judged.
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Post that Scripture for me so we can discuss it.

But, No sir. As Believers........ALL our sins have been judged and placed upon the Lord Jesus Christ. Believers do not stand before God on judgment day to be judged.

The moment we accept Jesus as the Christ, we are "Justified" = Declared Not Guilty!

Romans 3:23-25
" for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. "

Salvation is a 3 step process.............

1. This initial stage is the “judicial” act called justification. “Judicial” means God is the Judge. And he declares the guilty sinner innocent.

2. The second stage is the lifelong process of sanctification = growth, set apart.

3. And the third stage of Christian salvation is glorification, or when we meet Christ in heaven at death or the Rapture.

Also..........believers go to heaven at death.

2 Corth. 5: 1-2 & 8.......
"For we know that if our earthly house, this tent is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed, we shall not be found naked. . . ".

"We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord"!

Acts 7:55-56 * 59...............
And he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, 'Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!'. . . And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit'.
 
GoodNewsSharing said:
Hello Big Moose;

I did a word study about what you are trying to talk about here are the results

Taking a look at the word Sheol,

Sheol (7585), The 65 occurrences of this word are distributed throughout every period of Biblical Hebrew.

First, the word means the state of death :"For in death there I no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? (Psalms 6:5cf Psalms 18:5). It is the final resting place of all men: "They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment god own to the grave. (John 21:13). Hanah confused that it was the omnipotent God who brings mean to sheol (death) or kills them (1 Samuel 2:6). "Sheol is parallel to Hebrew words for "pit" or "hell" (Job 26:6), ,"corruption" or "decay" (Psalms 16:10), and "destruction" (Proverbs 15:11).

Second, "Sheol" is used of a place of conscious existence after death. In the first biblical appearances of the word Jacob said that he would "go down into the grave unto my son mourning" (Genesis 37:35). All men go to "Sheol"-- a place and state of consciousness after death (Psalms 16:10). The wicked receive punishment there (Numbers 16:30, Deuteronomy 32:33; Psalms 9:17). They are put to shame and silenced in "Sheol" (Psalms 31:17). Jesus alluded to Isaiah's use of Sheol - (Isaiah 14:13-15) in pronouncing judgement on Capernaum (Matthew 11:23), translating "Sheol as "Hades" or "Hell", meaning the place of conscious existence and judgement. It is an undesirable place for the wicked (Job 24:19) and a refuge for the righteous (Job 14:13). Thus "Sheol" is also a place of reward for the righteous (Hosea 13:14; cf 1 Corinthians 15:55). Jesus teaching in Luke 16:19-31 seems to reflect accurately the Old Testament concept of Sheol; it is a place of conscious existence after death, one side of which is occupied by the suffering, unrighteous dead separated by a great chasm from the other side peopled by the righteous dead enjoying their reward.

I personally do not believe anyone goes here today (if others do that is fine) - but instead go to what is described by John in Revelation 21-22.

The credit goes to Vines Exo. Dic. Hebrew and Greek Words : Hope this helps you.
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You said...........
"I personally do not believe anyone goes here today (if others do that is fine) - but instead go to what is described by John in Revelation 21-22."

Now, if that is true, then where do the spirts of the wicked lost go today upon death?

Actually, the fate of the unbelievers of all the ages is in Revelation 20:6-15................
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Keep in mind that earlier Death and Hades were personified, so it makes sense in the apocolyptic setting that they could be sent to the same "place" as other persons.
 
There is a lot to all of that Major.

I believe the Lake of fire is for those who wanna go through and learn the truth about the Lord Jesus Christ dying to themselves whom are outside the kingdom.

(of course the devil, the false prophet, the beast - are in the lake of fire forever - the rest that go into the lake of fire only have a part in it)

It is a subjective view and belief on my part - to have hope for all to come to the knowledge of the truth - while here it comes at a loss of dying to the world and our selves.

There will also be a loss for those who are on the outside of the kingdom, who go through the fire,

Those who go through it here, because of faith will go into the Kingdom.

Revelation doesn't stop at Chapter 20, Major.

So while people may believe what they will, I will believe my conjecture of my understanding hopefully by following the spirit.

Not a place where people wanna go and we don't even wanna go through the fire here that burns out the darkness in my opinion.

Love the ability to have freedom and people make their own choice, no one has to believe me, thank you friend.
 
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Damascus said:
I thought the Book of Revelation tells us no one is yet in heaven or hell because they've not yet been judged.
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Hello Damascus,

Well some people believe that when you die you wait in the grave, for the judgement, and then you either go to hell or heaven.

Depends on what the Holy Spirit of God leads you to believe, by having your mind renewed in the Bible. Context, and contents of the Bible all are useful for study.

My personal belief is people when they die, are judged instantly; they are given a resurrected body of either condemnation or of life according to Jesus: which is given by God. There is the outside of the Kingdom of Heaven, and there is an inside to the kingdom of God were God resides in the Heavenly Jerusalem with 12 gates open and they never close.

The reason I believe this way is that I believe Jesus Christ has had the victory over Sin, death, hell/hades/sheol, and the Devil and his angels. That being so we wrestle around with our own souls, and which direction we take, eat from the knowledge of good and evil, or from the tree of life - the bread of life, the everlasting water - Yeshua the Messiah.

Be encouraged,
Matthew
 
GoodNewsSharing said:
There is a lot to all of that Major.

I believe the Lake of fire is for those who wanna go through and learn the truth about the Lord Jesus Christ dying to themselves whom are outside the kingdom.

(of course the devil, the false prophet, the beast - are in the lake of fire forever - the rest that go into the lake of fire only have a part in it)

It is a subjective view and belief on my part - to have hope for all to come to the knowledge of the truth - while here it comes at a loss of dying to the world and our selves.

There will also be a loss for those who are on the outside of the kingdom, who go through the fire,

Those who go through it here, because of faith will go into the Kingdom.

Revelation doesn't stop at Chapter 20, Major.

So while people may believe what they will, I will believe my conjecture of my understanding hopefully by following the spirit.

Not a place where people wanna go and we don't even wanna go through the fire here that burns out the darkness in my opinion.

Love the ability to have freedom and people make their own choice, no one has to believe me, thank you friend.
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I have to disagree with you brother.

You said...........
"I believe the Lake of fire is for those who wanna go through and learn the truth about the Lord Jesus Christ dying to themselves whom are outside the kingdom."

Of course there are NO Bible Scriptures that support that opinion! LIFE NOW is the time to learn about Jesus the Christ and make a choice to accept Him as Saviour!!! Death ends all choices!

Those who wind up in the Lake of Fire do not want to be there!!!! May I also say that NO ONE in hell today wants to be there!
They are there because they rejected the Lord Jesus Christ! No other reason whatsoever.

You then said......................
"There will also be a loss for those who are on the outside of the kingdom, who go through the fire,"
Those who go through it here, because of faith will go into the Kingdom."

I am perplexed at what you are saying. I really have no idea what it is you are putting forth.
If you have a Denominational position, or thesis that you would like to put forth, please do so because what you just posted has NO basis in the Bible. I do not say that to be challenging....just a statement of fact!

You see, there are NO Scriptures that support the idea of anyone "going through" the LOF. Those lost people who go there are going to be there for all eternity. They will be in torments for all eternity.

Yes, thank you but I do know that there is a chapter 21 and 22. Those chapters are CONTEXTUALLY about New Jerusalem New Heaven and a New Earth. The reason I posted Rev. 20 because you mention the LOF in Rev. 21 and 22 but there is no LOF in 21 and 22.

I appreciate your opinion......I just have to tell you that it is not Biblical and that is what I deal in. Please feel free to enlighten us all or clarify your post.
 
In the books of revelation of Jesus Christ given by God to John; wrote in revelation 21:8 that there are people who have a part of what looks to me like the lake of fire. In revelation 22, you are right there is no mention of the fire there; but there are people who are described to be outside of the city gates, in Revelation 22:15 I believe.

My conjecture is if God is a consuming fire; and if he desires for all people to be able to bow and confess that Jesus is the Lord and they have to go through the fire to learn and grow and know about God, and that can be torturous just as Jesus was tortured and beat and struck in the face and spit on.

Perhaps people who are in the Kingdom who had lost family while here on earth I wonder if God would let them go outside the kingdom to find them and bring them back home?

God is a good God my friend that is all I know, and I respect you and appreciate your kindness.

Matthew
 
GoodNewsSharing said:
Hello Damascus,

Well some people believe that when you die you wait in the grave, for the judgement, and then you either go to hell or heaven.

Depends on what the Holy Spirit of God leads you to believe, by having your mind renewed in the Bible. Context, and contents of the Bible all are useful for study.

My personal belief is people when they die, are judged instantly; they are given a resurrected body of either condemnation or of life according to Jesus: which is given by God. There is the outside of the Kingdom of Heaven, and there is an inside to the kingdom of God were God resides in the Heavenly Jerusalem with 12 gates open and they never close.

The reason I believe this way is that I believe Jesus Christ has had the victory over Sin, death, hell/hades/sheol, and the Devil and his angels. That being so we wrestle around with our own souls, and which direction we take, eat from the knowledge of good and evil, or from the tree of life - the bread of life, the everlasting water - Yeshua the Messiah.

Be encouraged,
Matthew
Click to expand...

As blueskies has said.........you are approaching the subject of SOUL SLEEP. It is not a subject that can be discussed.

However, may I say to you in all Christian love, your opinions are very far from Bible truth. May I ask you where you have been taught your ideas.

You said...........
"My personal belief is people when they die, are judged instantly; they are given a resurrected body of either condemnation or of life".

Now we all are entitled to our opinions. However when it comes to Christiaity, we all must come to the point of accepting what GOD has said and not what we think or someone told us. Having said that allow to post Hebrews 9:27.
"It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

Notice it doesn’t say, “immediately after this”. The only judgment that occurs immediately after death is the one that separates believers from unbelievers. The various other judgments occur at different times. For the Church, it’s at the rapture/resurrection and is only for the purpose of rewarding us for things we’ve done. As I have stated......Christians will never be judged on our sin. That has already been paid for by The Lord Jesus Christ. We either accept it or we reject it.

For unbelievers, judgment is at the end of the Millennium, when they’re transferred from hell to the lake of fire. A sometimes overlooked point of Hebrews 9:27 is that once our physical life ends, our opportunity to decide our eternal destiny ends, too.
 
GoodNewsSharing said:
In the books of revelation of Jesus Christ given by God to John; wrote in revelation 21:8 that there are people who have a part of what looks to me like the lake of fire. In revelation 22, you are right there is no mention of the fire there; but there are people who are described to be outside of the city gates, in Revelation 22:15 I believe.

My conjecture is if God is a consuming fire; and if he desires for all people to be able to bow and confess that Jesus is the Lord and they have to go through the fire to learn and grow and know about God, and that can be torturous just as Jesus was tortured and beat and struck in the face and spit on.

Perhaps people who are in the Kingdom who had lost family while here on earth I wonder if God would let them go outside the kingdom to find them and bring them back home?

God is a good God my friend that is all I know, and I respect you and appreciate your kindness.

Matthew
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I agree. That would be the logical conclusion based on what we see in chapter 20. My only responce was to the words Lake of Fire being in #21 0r #22.

Yes............The book of Exodus and Deuteronomy tell us that God is a flame of righteousness.

You then said.........
"and if he desires for all people to be able to bow and confess that Jesus is the Lord and they have to go through the fire to learn and grow and know about God, and that can be torturous just as Jesus was tortured and beat and struck in the face and spit on."

NO-NO-NO my dear friend. You are portraying accepting Jesus as some kind of torture or contest or a fire to go through.

That is simply not the case. We come to God through FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ for the payment for our sins. THere is NO test to take. There is NO fire to go through! There is NOTHING to learn!!! There is NOTHING to know about God to accept Christ as Saviour.

And yes........God is good and God saves all men who will come to Jesus as the Christ and believe upon Him for the remission of their sins.
 
Odd that a topic in scripture is banned.

However, soul sleep though biblical isn't what I was referring to. Revelation 20:11-15 is.
 
I was thinking of the Mount of Transformation with Moses and Elijah <Mark 9>. Of course that doesn't mean they were in heaven, but...

As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
— 2 Kings 2:11
 
blueskies said:
Dear Damascus,
This was a general advisory, however, if you haven’t yet familiarized yourself with this list please take this opportunity.

Here is a link:
Banned Topics at CFS

Here you will find the CFS explanation as to why certain topics are banned and the list of those topics.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
Thank you.
I would hope the Revelation verses I referenced are addressed, as they do not violate the rules as far as I've read.
 
Damascus said:
Odd that a topic in scripture is banned.

However, soul sleep though biblical isn't what I was referring to. Revelation 20:11-15 is.
Click to expand...
Revelation 20:10-15...........
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

From your post #6.........
"I thought the Book of Revelation tells us no one is yet in heaven or hell because they've not yet been judged."

20:10-15 concerns only the lost of all the ages. It is commonly referred to as The Great White Throne Judgment. It is the final judgment. of Those who are judged and are assigned to their final state., the Lake of Fire. There is NO escape and NO end.

There is nothing there about anyone being in heaven. It is all about those in hell who will be resurrected (2nd Resurrection) and then judged and assigned to the LOF!

Believers will also be judged by Christ, at the Believers Judgment but since Christ’s righteousness has been imputed to us and our names are written in the book of life, we will be rewarded, but not punished, according to our deeds.
 
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