What do you think the relationship should be for Christians between faith and knowledge?

DanielGarneau

DanielGarneau

Hello,

What do you think the relationship should be for Christians between faith and knowledge? A decade ago or so I became concerned with the consensus that appeared to be dominating the medias and the general culture. Believers rely on "belief", and learned people on "knowledge". It was as if one either believed or knew. This led me to express myself in the following manner about this topic : The Christian Faith is based on Knowledge, but its source is in the most part not recognized by society at large.

This morning I published a video titled Knowing and Believing -- a Christian Perspective, where I touch up on this subject. Feel free to provide your input here on that topic.

God bless you all.
 
DanielGarneau said:
Hello,

What do you think the relationship should be for Christians between faith and knowledge? A decade ago or so I became concerned with the consensus that appeared to be dominating the medias and the general culture. Believers rely on "belief", and learned people on "knowledge". It was as if one either believed or knew. This led me to express myself in the following manner about this topic : The Christian Faith is based on Knowledge, but its source is in the most part not recognized by society at large.

This morning I published a video titled Knowing and Believing -- a Christian Perspective, where I touch up on this subject. Feel free to provide your input here on that topic.

God bless you all.
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Quite a remarkable question. Allow me to quote for all of you what C.S. Lewis once wrote In Mere Christianity he wrote,

I am not asking anyone to accept Christianity if his best reasoning tells him that the weight of evidence is against it. That is not the point at which faith comes in. But supposing a man’s reason once decides that the weight of the evidence is for it. I can tell that man what is going to happen to him in the next few weeks. There will come a moment when there is bad news, or he is in trouble, or is living among a lot of other people who do not believe it, and all at once his emotions will rise up and carry out a sort of blitz on his belief. Or else there will come a moment when he wants a woman, or wants to tell a lie, or feels very pleased with himself, or sees a chance of making a little money in some way that is not perfectly fair; some moment, in fact, at which it would be very convenient if Christianity were not true. And once again his wishes and desires will carry out a blitz. I am not talking of moments at which any real new reasons against Christianity turn up. Those have to be faced and that is a different matter. I am talking about moments where a mere mood rises up against it.
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Now faith, in the sense in which I am here using the word, is the art of holding onto things your reason has once accepted, in spite of your changing moods. For moods will change, whatever view your reason takes. I know that by experience. Now that I am a Christian, I do have moods in which the whole thing looks very improbable; but when I was an atheist, I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable. This rebellion of your moods against your real self is going to come anyway. That is why faith is such a necessary virtue; unless you teach your moods “where they get off” you can never be either a sound Christian or even a sound atheist, but just a creature dithering to and fro, with its beliefs really dependent on the weather and the state of its digestion. Consequently one must train
the habit of faith.
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DanielGarneau said:
Hello,

What do you think the relationship should be for Christians between faith and knowledge? A decade ago or so I became concerned with the consensus that appeared to be dominating the medias and the general culture. Believers rely on "belief", and learned people on "knowledge". It was as if one either believed or knew. This led me to express myself in the following manner about this topic : The Christian Faith is based on Knowledge, but its source is in the most part not recognized by society at large.

This morning I published a video titled Knowing and Believing -- a Christian Perspective, where I touch up on this subject. Feel free to provide your input here on that topic.

God bless you all.
Click to expand...
I would offer the word faith in the Bible is used as a "noun" to represent the labor of God's unseen Love, .It speaks of the exclusive source of faith identified by as it is it written .The power of God. Unbelivers are acreditied with no faith , none. . . while belivers always atributed as little faith in need of increase the word of God the greater, as the very exclusive source.

Again our faith is always considred little compared to His . . .all .


Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Matthew 6:30Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Matthew 8:26And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Matthew 14:31And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Matthew 16:8Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

Luke 12:28
If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

In the Deuteronomy 32:20 passage above God is shown hiding his face .This mean his presence is not found working in a persons heart. Face to face in the revealed knowledge (as it is writen) . or called faith (the unseen power of revealing) to faith the unsen power that does reveal the face or unsen glory of God .

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Again to emphasize "face to face" in the reveled knowledge received. . . or "faith to faith" same difernce . The word of God doing its work in us .

Romans 1: 17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Faith is the power of God unseen. No faith, no God.

In that same way he spoke to Moses just as us today .


Exodus 33:11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
 
Garee said:
I would offer the word faith in the Bible is used as a "noun" to represent the labor of God's unseen Love, .It speaks of the exclusive source of faith identified by as it is it written .The power of God. Unbelivers are acreditied with no faith , none. . . while belivers always atributed as little faith in need of increase the word of God the greater, as the very exclusive source.

Again our faith is always considred little compared to His . . .all .


Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Matthew 6:30Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Matthew 8:26And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Matthew 14:31And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Matthew 16:8Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

Luke 12:28
If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

In the Deuteronomy 32:20 passage above God is shown hiding his face .This mean his presence is not found working in a persons heart. Face to face in the revealed knowledge (as it is writen) . or called faith (the unseen power of revealing) to faith the unsen power that does reveal the face or unsen glory of God .

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Again to emphasize "face to face" in the reveled knowledge received. . . or "faith to faith" same difernce . The word of God doing its work in us .

Romans 1: 17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Faith is the power of God unseen. No faith, no God.

In that same way he spoke to Moses just as us today .


Exodus 33:11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
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God does speak to people today. First, God speaks to us through His written Word. The Bible is God’s Word, and it contains everything we need to know in order to be saved and live the Christian life

God can also “speak” to us through events, through a song or a prayer and a sermon. He can guide us through arranging our circumstances. And God helps us to discern right from wrong through our consciences. God is in the process of conforming our minds to think His thoughts. God allows events to occur in our lives to direct us, change us, and help us to grow spiritually.

Moses did not see God, Face to Face. Unraveling the problem begins with a simple truth: God is spirit. He does not have a body:

John 4:24.......
"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

Moses is the prime example: In Exodus 33:11.......
"The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend."

In this verse, "face to face" is a figure of speech, a descriptive phrase that is not to be taken literally. It cannot be, for God does not have a face. Instead, it means that God and Moses shared a deep friendship.
 
Major said:
God does speak to people today. First, God speaks to us through His written Word. The Bible is God’s Word, and it contains everything we need to know in order to be saved and live the Christian life

God can also “speak” to us through events, through a song or a prayer and a sermon. He can guide us through arranging our circumstances. And God helps us to discern right from wrong through our consciences. God is in the process of conforming our minds to think His thoughts. God allows events to occur in our lives to direct us, change us, and help us to grow spiritually.

Moses did not see God, Face to Face. Unraveling the problem begins with a simple truth: God is spirit. He does not have a body:

John 4:24.......
"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

Moses is the prime example: In Exodus 33:11.......
"The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend."

In this verse, "face to face" is a figure of speech, a descriptive phrase that is not to be taken literally. It cannot be, for God does not have a face. Instead, it means that God and Moses shared a deep friendship.
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I would agree seing face to face is in respect to the prefect His writen word . The writen word we have in full . Nothing can be aded to it or taken away from it.
 
hmm I haven't thought too much about it, Jesus really did emphasise believing first and then with that you wlll know God, though some people have it the other way round, that you get to know God and then believe.

I think it can work both ways! Paul sort of addressed both types of people.

Jews can be really intellectual, knowing every single scripture, but still not believe.
Greeks can believe in all the other gods, but not know the unknown God.
 
Lanolin said:
hmm I haven't thought too much about it, Jesus really did emphasise believing first and then with that you wlll know God, though some people have it the other way round, that you get to know God and then believe.

I think it can work both ways! Paul sort of addressed both types of people.

Jews can be really intellectual, knowing every single scripture, but still not believe.
Greeks can believe in all the other gods, but not know the unknown God.
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Actually Jews do not read or accept the New Test. so they do not know any of the Scriptures therein.
 
Lanolin said:
hmm I haven't thought too much about it, Jesus really did emphasise believing first and then with that you wlll know God, though some people have it the other way round, that you get to know God and then believe.

I think it can work both ways! Paul sort of addressed both types of people.

Jews can be really intellectual, knowing every single scripture, but still not believe.
Greeks can believe in all the other gods, but not know the unknown God.
Click to expand...
It works as he works in both kinds. a learning curve. If he began the good work of faith as our first love or experence of beliveing God not seen. He will call us back to do the "first works". . . "believe God' not seen and not man seen like that of Nicole the leader of the Nicolaitanes,. Remember we can plant the gospel seed and water it with the doctrines of God that fall from heaven like rain on the hard earth .But his seed causes the growth . Hearing and also the gospel power to believe as a anchor to our new born again soul..

In the end of the matter we can as new crestures hear as he gives us his understansing and not the understanding of the demonations like that of the Nicolaitanes, which our God does hate (Robs him of his unseen glory giving it over to the corrupoted flesh of mankind )

Revelation 2: 5-7 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
 
I don't really know who or what the Nicolatians were or did, I remember asking this once in a bible study. It was a bit puzzling since there aren't any Nicolatianes around today that I know of!

I know of some friends called Nicole though!
 
Lanolin said:
I don't really know who or what the Nicolatians were or did, I remember asking this once in a bible study. It was a bit puzzling since there aren't any Nicolatianes around today that I know of!

I know of some friends called Nicole though!
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Hi thanks for the reply . I think like all demonyms.. which is a noun it used to denote the natives or inhabitants of a particular country, state, city, or sect as a family . it is used to represnt the resdentas of that city named after the founder Nicole or in that case that sect Nicolatianes. .Just as the new name the father named his bride Christian in Acts Christian literly meaning residents of the city of Christ. named after her husnband and founder Christ . Like Phidephia the city of brothering love.

Other wise I can see no reason to say he hates the deeds of that sect other than they rob our unsen God of his glory . When we fall and are called to we return to our first love( hearing and beliving God not seen ) and then we can do the first works again as he works us . . . . believe as it is written in the law and prohets (sola scriptura)
 
Garee said:
Hi thanks for the reply . I think like all demonyms.. which is a noun it used to denote the natives or inhabitants of a particular country, state, city, or sect as a family . it is used to represnt the resdentas of that city named after the founder Nicole or in that case that sect Nicolatianes. .Just as the new name the father named his bride Christian in Acts Christian literly meaning residents of the city of Christ. named after her husnband and founder Christ . Like Phidephia the city of brothering love.

Other wise I can see no reason to say he hates the deeds of that sect other than they rob our unsen God of his glory . When we fall and are called to we return to our first love( hearing and beliving God not seen ) and then we can do the first works again as he works us . . . . believe as it is written in the law and prohets (sola scriptura)
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Good answer and I would only add that the exact origin of the Nicolaitans is unclear. Some Bible commentators believe they were a heretical sect who followed the teachings of Nicolas—whose name means “one who conquers the people”—who was possibly one of the deacons of the early church mentioned in Acts 6:5.

It is possible that Nicolas became an apostate, denying the true faith and became part of a group holding "the doctrine of Balaam," who taught Israel "to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality." Clement of Alexandria says, “They abandoned themselves to pleasure like goats, leading a life of self-indulgence.” Their teaching perverted grace and replaced liberty with license.

However, other commentators believe that these Nicolaitans were not so called from any man, but from the Greek word Nicolah, meaning "let us eat," as they often encouraged each other to eat things offered to idols. Whichever theory is true, it is certain that the deeds of the Nicolaitans were an abomination to Christ. They, like the Gnostics and other false teachers, abused the doctrine of grace and tried to introduce licentiousness in its place.
 
Garee said:
Hi thanks for the reply . I think like all demonyms.. which is a noun it used to denote the natives or inhabitants of a particular country, state, city, or sect as a family . it is used to represnt the resdentas of that city named after the founder Nicole or in that case that sect Nicolatianes. .Just as the new name the father named his bride Christian in Acts Christian literly meaning residents of the city of Christ. named after her husnband and founder Christ . Like Phidephia the city of brothering love.

Other wise I can see no reason to say he hates the deeds of that sect other than they rob our unsen God of his glory . When we fall and are called to we return to our first love( hearing and beliving God not seen ) and then we can do the first works again as he works us . . . . believe as it is written in the law and prohets (sola scriptura)
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Imagine if you got a bad enough reputation to be written about in the Bible, like in one letter its written the Cretans are always liars....you'd never live it down!
 
Lanolin said:
Imagine if you got a bad enough reputation to be written about in the Bible, like in one letter its written the Cretans are always liars....you'd never live it down!
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Some hid in caves others in plain sight God hates the lying deeds of Cretans and Nicolatianes.Their deeds deny the first loving union of faith . God workining in them to both will or understand and empower them to do the good pleasure of God
 
Thank you for your feed back on the original them of this thread: the relationship between knowing and believing. The context of this question is that I am surrounded by a culture who tends to oppose knowing to believing as if those who believe in Jesus Christ for their personal Savior have no basis. Some people with whom I worked through the years respected me for who I was in the context of the services I rendered to them a part of my work. They also knew that I was a Cristian, and to some of them, that was a puzzle. How can this guy whom I know and respect buy into pure belief.

My answer to this quandary is that my faith although it comes from the Spirit and is not available to unaided human beings is still not without foundations. Whereas natural sciences rely on observation and experimentation to gain knowledge, we Christians believe that the Bible is also a source of knowledge.

It has become impossible for me to not believe what the prophets and apostles tell me in the pages of the Word of God. So from this I began to know about God, and somehow throughout this process the Spirit of God enabled me to receive the truth about who God is, who Jesus is, and also who I truly am.

God bless you all!
 
DanielGarneau said:
Thank you for your feed back on the original them of this thread: the relationship between knowing and believing. The context of this question is that I am surrounded by a culture who tends to oppose knowing to believing as if those who believe in Jesus Christ for their personal Savior have no basis. Some people with whom I worked through the years respected me for who I was in the context of the services I rendered to them a part of my work. They also knew that I was a Cristian, and to some of them, that was a puzzle. How can this guy whom I know and respect buy into pure belief.

My answer to this quandary is that my faith although it comes from the Spirit and is not available to unaided human beings is still not without foundations. Whereas natural sciences rely on observation and experimentation to gain knowledge, we Christians believe that the Bible is also a source of knowledge.

It has become impossible for me to not believe what the prophets and apostles tell me in the pages of the Word of God. So from this I began to know about God, and somehow throughout this process the Spirit of God enabled me to receive the truth about who God is, who Jesus is, and also who I truly am.

God bless you all!
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Yes we are given the "book of law" called the whole bible not the book of philosophical theories or we serve the "law of faith" not a theory of faith as the philosophies of men it as His Spirit works in us with us unravels the mystery of faith hiding the understanding from those who believe not.

Natural man who continue to wonder not coming to faith the end of belief .Our yes or no in Christ.

Luke 8:9-11 King James Version (KJV)And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
 
Major said:
Good answer and I would only add that the exact origin of the Nicolaitans is unclear. Some Bible commentators believe they were a heretical sect who followed the teachings of Nicolas—whose name means “one who conquers the people”—who was possibly one of the deacons of the early church mentioned in Acts 6:5.

It is possible that Nicolas became an apostate, denying the true faith and became part of a group holding "the doctrine of Balaam," who taught Israel "to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality." Clement of Alexandria says, “They abandoned themselves to pleasure like goats, leading a life of self-indulgence.” Their teaching perverted grace and replaced liberty with license.

However, other commentators believe that these Nicolaitans were not so called from any man, but from the Greek word Nicolah, meaning "let us eat," as they often encouraged each other to eat things offered to idols. Whichever theory is true, it is certain that the deeds of the Nicolaitans were an abomination to Christ. They, like the Gnostics and other false teachers, abused the doctrine of grace and tried to introduce licentiousness in its place.
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I would agree there are many different ideas. I am no scholar. But looking at the way demonyns are used in the Bible which as nouns are used in the New Testament to denote the natives or inhabitants of a particular country, state, city, or sect . Not only does it apply to the new name he named his bride in Acts. “Christian” literally meaning residents of the city of Christ prepared as his bride named after her founder Christ needed to represent the unseen kingdom heavenly city .

The Christian nation is the untied nation, the nation of nations. Demonyns are used in all the cities that way as if they represent the differences among the believers .The Philippians, Thessalonians, Galatians, Berea’s or Nicolaitans .

The deeds that God hates with some of the Nicolaitans which cause them to fall from their first love trusting God. The warning applies to all the denominations as churches. Do not put ones trust in what the eyes see along faith must be mixed so that we can do the first works of Him working in us (believe God not the churches .

Using it as a demonyn seems to work out best when dividing that portion of scripture.
 
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