When is it ok to fight when not to fight?

Nov 30, 2014
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Ok, Mathew 26:59 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

And, Romans 13:4, "For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

Ok, now if you are not working for governments law enforcement for instance, when can you fight/ignore, etc. and when not to?

Also,

Matthew 5:44
44 [a]But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and

persecute you,

Verses

And 2 John 1:10: If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them.

Also, when can you cut of someone from your life. It’s hard for me to work these things out.

If you are dealing with heavily corrupt authorities, can you fight them, or do you put the “sword” down?


Is it ok for police to lie, like undercover, etc?



Thanks
 
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I would give the following citation:

Luke 22:35-36 (NASB)
35 And He said to them, “When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?” They said, “No, nothing.” 36 And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

From this I would say that providing for self defense would be an acceptable condition and the Lord was counseling them to take adequate precautions, but I would caution that the disciples were not being sent out to look for trouble. It was just that they would be carrying money and would be a target for highway thieves.
 
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Sep 3, 2009
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I would give the following citation:

Luke 22:35-36 (NASB)
35 And He said to them, “When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?” They said, “No, nothing.” 36 And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

From this I would say that providing for self defense would be an acceptable condition and the Lord was counseling them to take adequate precautions, but I would caution that the disciples were not being sent out to look for trouble. It was just that they would be carrying money and would be a target for highway thieves.
Agreed!

There were in those days many wild animals and robbers at every corner.
 
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Ok, Mathew 26:59 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

And, Romans 13:4, "For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer."

Ok, now if you are not working for governments law enforcement for instance, when can you fight/ignore, etc. and when not to?

Also,

Matthew 5:44
44 [a]But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and

persecute you,

Verses

And 2 John 1:10: If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them.

Also, when can you cut of someone from your life. It’s hard for me to work these things out.

If you are dealing with heavily corrupt authorities, can you fight them, or do you put the “sword” down?


Is it ok for police to lie, like undercover, etc?



Thanks
Christianity is not a pacifist religion my friend.

If we think about it, it was God Himself who told the people to "Take passion of the land" and they had to fight 10 battles to do that.

1 Samuel 23:5 says that David...….
“fought with the Philistines and brought away their livestock and struck them with a great blow”.

It was also that say man, David who slew Goliath.

Also in 1 Samuel 30:17 we see that......….
“David struck them down from twilight until the evening of the next day, and not a man of them escaped, except four hundred young men who mounted camels and fled”.

Why did David do such a thing???? God told him to!!!!

You asked...…….

"Is it ok for police to lie, like undercover, etc?"

Certainly it is.

Let ask you a question. If someone kidnapped your child.....would you allow the police to lie and do whatever it took to get your child back to you?
 
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Is it ok for police to lie, like undercover, etc?
FYI:

In the 1969 supreme court decision in Fazier v Cupp the court held that deceptive interrogation tactics were acceptable.

I read the decision several years ago and am still ambivalent. I recognize that one cannot always be transparent when investigating wrong doing, but the case involved telling a person lies during interrogation. One would hope that the police were trying to get at truth. I find it troubling that their standard for their own speech was so much lower than their standard for the response by the suspect.
 
Nov 30, 2014
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Christianity is not a pacifist religion my friend.

If we think about it, it was God Himself who told the people to "Take passion of the land" and they had to fight 10 battles to do that.

1 Samuel 23:5 says that David...….
“fought with the Philistines and brought away their livestock and struck them with a great blow”.

It was also that say man, David who slew Goliath.

Also in 1 Samuel 30:17 we see that......….
“David struck them down from twilight until the evening of the next day, and not a man of them escaped, except four hundred young men who mounted camels and fled”.

Why did David do such a thing???? God told him to!!!!

You asked...…….

"Is it ok for police to lie, like undercover, etc?"

Certainly it is.

Let ask you a question. If someone kidnapped your child.....would you allow the police to lie and do whatever it took to get your child back to you?
Thanks Major. Yes I would allow them to lie. However, I am trying to find out God Yahweh’s will. I am pretty sure for instance that there is a law called a citizens arrest, where if let’s say someone steals from a supermarket and you see it, that you can arrest them and hold them, call the police and wait for them to come. Now, could one Who is not police lie in order to save someone from injustice?

Thanks
 
Feb 10, 2015
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Christianity is not a pacifist religion my friend.

If we think about it, it was God Himself who told the people to "Take passion of the land" and they had to fight 10 battles to do that.
I still remember a sermon from later 1970’s when I was living on Ft Meyer when the Post Chaplin preached a sermon on Matt 5:9.
Matthew 5:9 [NASB]
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Remember this was right after the Vietnam war, and the country was very much divided and some held the military in low esteem.

His point was the it does NOT say Blessed are the peace lovers.

The peace lovers want to sit and moan for peace, while peace is often made by thoughtful application of force. It was true when the people of Israel took Canaan. It was true as Israel fought both successfully and unsuccessfully to remain a kingdom. It will be true then the Lord returns.
 
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I still remember a sermon from later 1970’s when I was living on Ft Meyer when the Post Chaplin preached a sermon on Matt 5:9.
Matthew 5:9 [NASB]
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Remember this was right after the Vietnam war, and the country was very much divided and some held the military in low esteem.

His point was the it does NOT say Blessed are the peace lovers.

The peace lovers want to sit and moan for peace, while peace is often made by thoughtful application of force. It was true when the people of Israel took Canaan. It was true as Israel fought both successfully and unsuccessfully to remain a kingdom. It will be true then the Lord returns.
Agreed brother!

I was part of the Vietnam war and I remember very well what the nation thought of the military. It broke my heart to see our men treated like they were treated.
 
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Thanks Major. Yes I would allow them to lie. However, I am trying to find out God Yahweh’s will. I am pretty sure for instance that there is a law called a citizens arrest, where if let’s say someone steals from a supermarket and you see it, that you can arrest them and hold them, call the police and wait for them to come. Now, could one Who is not police lie in order to save someone from injustice?

Thanks
You are it seems to me asking about the 9th commandment....."Do not bear false witness."

I would say that you are overthinking that problem. It would be very, very difficult for that happen in everyday life.

Jesus does not ask us to learn how to convincingly lie in order to deliver ourselves or someone else. If we truly love others, we will also pray for them and ask God’s blessing and protection upon them as well.

Secondly, we need to realize that even though we will face problems and trials in our lives, God promises to deliver us. In 1 Corth. 10:13...……...
" it says, “No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.”
 
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I don't know if I can answer your question directly Peki
Are you in the police force? Or do you know people? In nz we did have a problem with some police who also can be understaffed and overworked and there has been instances of corruption/incompetence. Just because they enforce the law doesn't mean they are above the law themselves.

I do know that there are police who are Christians and need encouragement. The Bible Society has published a special Police Bible for them and there are christian police fellowships. My senior pastor was a former cop.

I do know that God is a merciful God and also a just God. So He knows what is right in every situation.

I don't think you can arrest or detain someone if you are not the police yourself, but you can call security and they can handle the situation before the cops come. If you don't have security the best thing you can do is keep yourself safe and that might mean hiding, or taking a photo so they can recognise the offender, rego, etc.
 

rtm3039

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FYI:

In the 1969 supreme court decision in Fazier v Cupp the court held that deceptive interrogation tactics were acceptable.

I read the decision several years ago and am still ambivalent. I recognize that one cannot always be transparent when investigating wrong doing, but the case involved telling a person lies during interrogation. One would hope that the police were trying to get at truth. I find it troubling that their standard for their own speech was so much lower than their standard for the response by the suspect.
Ok, you have to put this one in perspective. Give you two real world examples: Rape case where I told the suspect I already had witnesses that he and the victim had a relationship. Ok, what I had was information that they had a professional relationship, but I kind of didn't mention the type of relationship. Breaking and Entering. Interviewed the suspect and had the lock in an evidence bag and a fingerprint kid next to the bag. Truth was, there were no prints on the lock, but not sure he needed to know that. It is ok to lie to a suspect, you just can't make promises or guarantees (i.e. "nothing will happen to you.").
 
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Thanks Major. Yes I would allow them to lie. However, I am trying to find out God Yahweh’s will. I am pretty sure for instance that there is a law called a citizens arrest, where if let’s say someone steals from a supermarket and you see it, that you can arrest them and hold them, call the police and wait for them to come. Now, could one Who is not police lie in order to save someone from injustice?

Thanks
Hi. Ok....In most US states, there are laws that allow a regular citizen to made am arrest (aka: citizen's arrest); however, this is usually only when that citizen sees the person commit a felony (you would pretty much have to steal the entire supermarket, before is gets to the felony category).

I am both law enforcement and military. Semi-retired now. Several years ago, I was ordered to report for serve on a jury. Despite my background, made it all the way to jury selection. At one point, the defense asked me if police officers lied. He brought up the undercover thing, but I told him that cops do not lie, they act. I mean, when someone plays a part in a movie, is it a lie or an act? I did not make it to the actual jury.

I would consider that the taking of a like for something as petty as property is not in keeping with Christianity. However, in the defense of self or others, I have no problems with that. In such cases, it doe not violate the six commandment.

Lastly, "Now, could one Who is not police lie in order to save someone from injustice?" No, not just the police, but also the non-police. You can fight injustice without having to lie. If you have to lie, maybe it's not all that unjust that from which you are trying to same someone. For that matter, what is injustice? I am often amused at people who demand justice, but do not like the outcome (not saying you are one of those).

Several of our family here have cited good teachings about violence and honestly. I believe that Matthew 26:52 was specific for that moment. Were it not the time and place for the Scripture to be fulfilled, none of them would have been at that place at that time.

rtm3039
 
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I don't want to say much, going through a bad time spiritually, of my own making by the way. But I think we need to look at the reason and motive. We live in a fallen and imperfect world. I vaguely remember the news reels of Vietnam. I think people questioned why we were there. The French withdrew in the early 50's, creating North and South, the US Raison de etre was to prevent communism. However that is the war of ideas. Did America need to go to war. I dont know, I also cant defend the use of Napalm, or Agent Orange. Yet, the US Government thought they were doing the best for their people. Also at the same time they received Plaudits for intervening in the Suez conflict. The History of US decision making 1945- 1970 is very complex, Cuba, Korea, etc. Yet the men who go to war on trust shouldn't be seen as anything less than heroes. As to the police they are an essential part of managing that imperfect world, God allows us civil laws, it is our job, to line them up with his views on justice, in wrath remember mercy
 
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I don't want to say much, going through a bad time spiritually, of my own making by the way. But I think we need to look at the reason and motive. We live in a fallen and imperfect world. I vaguely remember the news reels of Vietnam. I think people questioned why we were there. The French withdrew in the early 50's, creating North and South, the US Raison de etre was to prevent communism. However that is the war of ideas. Did America need to go to war. I dont know, I also cant defend the use of Napalm, or Agent Orange. Yet, the US Government thought they were doing the best for their people. Also at the same time they received Plaudits for intervening in the Suez conflict. The History of US decision making 1945- 1970 is very complex, Cuba, Korea, etc. Yet the men who go to war on trust shouldn't be seen as anything less than heroes. As to the police they are an essential part of managing that imperfect world, God allows us civil laws, it is our job, to line them up with his views on justice, in wrath remember mercy
I am distressed to hear that you are having any problems David. I pray that what ever it is you will be granted the blessings of God to come through it.

As for the Vietnam newsreels......I lived those things!!!

I can promise you that men did lots of bad things to people in order to save the lives of their fellow men from death from the enemy.

If we had a VC who we knew had information about an ambush or a planned attack, there was virtually nothing out of reach to get that information from the enemy. Killing him would be about the only thing not done and even that I am not so sure of. That should not be news to anyone as it has been taking place in every war ever fought including today.
 
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I don't know if I can answer your question directly Peki
Are you in the police force? Or do you know people? In nz we did have a problem with some police who also can be understaffed and overworked and there has been instances of corruption/incompetence. Just because they enforce the law doesn't mean they are above the law themselves.

I do know that there are police who are Christians and need encouragement. The Bible Society has published a special Police Bible for them and there are christian police fellowships. My senior pastor was a former cop.

I do know that God is a merciful God and also a just God. So He knows what is right in every situation.

I don't think you can arrest or detain someone if you are not the police yourself, but you can call security and they can handle the situation before the cops come. If you don't have security the best thing you can do is keep yourself safe and that might mean hiding, or taking a photo so they can recognise the offender, rego, etc.
Hi Lanolin. I apologise for not answering your question earlier. I am not a policemen. However I was first a security guard( only for the show at melbourne(Australia) city Myer shop, I was in the Australian regular Army infantry for three years, then I was a waiter at Victorian arts centre( being a waiter has nothing to do with the subject, but I though I’ll put it there), and I was a crowd controller( otherwise known as bouncer in Australia)working mainly in Melbourne CBD, and suburbs near by. I happened to have been a head of security at a big club bar and a nightclub at the same time.

That was to just answer your question of what might be my knowledge of how some things might work.

I also have other experiences which I don’t feel like discussing which means that I don’t really want to say exactly why I asked the question. And I am sorry for not being a bit more direct. I suppose there have been a few different reasons.

Anyway, as I learn more some teachings like what we are discussing in this thread are becoming clearer.

Thanks
 

rtm3039

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Hi Lanolin. I apologise for not answering your question earlier. I am not a policemen. However I was first a security guard( only for the show at melbourne(Australia) city Myer shop, I was in the Australian regular Army infantry for three years, then I was a waiter at Victorian arts centre( being a waiter has nothing to do with the subject, but I though I’ll put it there), and I was a crowd controller( otherwise known as bouncer in Australia)working mainly in Melbourne CBD, and suburbs near by. I happened to have been a head of security at a big club bar and a nightclub at the same time.

That was to just answer your question of what might be my knowledge of how some things might work.

I also have other experiences which I don’t feel like discussing which means that I don’t really want to say exactly why I asked the question. And I am sorry for not being a bit more direct. I suppose there have been a few different reasons.

Anyway, as I learn more some teachings like what we are discussing in this thread are becoming clearer.

Thanks
You know, among other things, I am also a volunteer security person at our church. We have close to 100 security members and the church employees a security director. On any any given weekend, we have 1 - 2 issues, some of which go to the extend of someone carrying a weapon into the building (which is allowed by FL law) and two occasions where someone made threats against our lead pastor. Unlike my former law enforcement career, confrontations at church tend do me much more Christian like. While we have had to escort a couple right of campus, most of the time we try to be as understanding as possible.

Now we are currently dealing with this:

miami 1.jpg
miami 2.jpg
miami 3.jpg
So, this weekend was the first where local restaurants could open back up. Now we are under an 8pm - 6am curfew. There were protests in 111 US cities yesterday and they are gearing up for day two. Our PO's have done a great job at taking the insults, rocks, and having their unit's set on fire. Looks like we are getting close to time to fight again.

The family and I are ok, as we live in the suburbs of Miami. So, my worries today is just cutting the grass in the Florida heat. However, my office is in down town Miami and within a couple of blocks where all this is unfolding.

Have a nice day,

rtm3039
 
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Lots of looting and setting buildings on fire here in NC, too. I remember the craziness with the gas shortages in the 70's, the looting during a NYC wide blackout in the early 80's, and countless major social upheavals including women being raped during a men's parade. None of this is new, and neither are race riots. You would think humanity as evolved beyond all this, but we are still all just sinners in the end. The world needs salvation now more than ever.
 
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rtm3039

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Lots of looting and setting buildings on fire here in NC, too. I remember the craziness with the gas shortages in the 70's, the looting during a NYC wide blackout in the early 80's, and countless major social upheavals including women being raped during a men's parade. None of this is new, and neither are race riots. You would think humanity as evolved beyond all this, but we are still all just sinners in the end. The world needs salvation now more than ever.
Yes. The last time we had this here was in the early 80s. Tomorrow is my one day at the office thing. Normally, I leave around 5:30 - 5:45, to beat the traffic. Now I have to wait until curfew ends at 6am.

They appear to be gearing up for round two.
 
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I just want to say as Christians I do believe we have the right to protect our lives, family, liberty, and property, but not at the expense of taking a human life.
So during chaos we must still be diligent to shine as lights in the world full of darkness, as soldiers for Christ.

Protestors are geared up for several more rounds Im sure. Why? I understand racism, and have had my share of bad experiences being of Greek and western Asian decent. Ask any TSA employee that has diligently searched through my items and patted me down every time I fly. It is complete with a "your luggage has been searched" insert in my bags. Since desert storm I've had my share.

These protestors have been fueled by the idea that they can be on the top of the scale, if only for a short lived few moments of that feeling of "glory".
The bounty of "loot" they steal might just be the most they have had in life, there for the taking. Anger is a strong emotion, and those of us living in the deep south know the taste of discrimination all too well. Its a two edged sword all on sides of the fence, because the civil war really is still alive. Its living among the supremist, and as the reverse racist. Magnify those rooted discriminatory feelings nation wide and what do you get? A national stew pot stirred by an election, anarchist groups, and any of your global variety of mischief makers. In my opinion, the national guard needs to go arrest all looters and protestors during a pandemic to protect our law abiding citizens. None of this is peaceful.
 

rtm3039

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I just want to say as Christians I do believe we have the right to protect our lives, family, liberty, and property, but not at the expense of taking a human life.
So during chaos we must still be diligent to shine as lights in the world full of darkness, as soldiers for Christ.

Protestors are geared up for several more rounds Im sure. Why? I understand racism, and have had my share of bad experiences being of Greek and western Asian decent. Ask any TSA employee that has diligently searched through my items and patted me down every time I fly. It is complete with a "your luggage has been searched" insert in my bags. Since desert storm I've had my share.

These protestors have been fueled by the idea that they can be on the top of the scale, if only for a short lived few moments of that feeling of "glory".
The bounty of "loot" they steal might just be the most they have had in life, there for the taking. Anger is a strong emotion, and those of us living in the deep south know the taste of discrimination all too well. Its a two edged sword all on sides of the fence, because the civil war really is still alive. Its living among the supremist, and as the reverse racist. Magnify those rooted discriminatory feelings nation wide and what do you get? A national stew pot stirred by an election, anarchist groups, and any of your global variety of mischief makers. In my opinion, the national guard needs to go arrest all looters and protestors during a pandemic to protect our law abiding citizens. None of this is peaceful.
I'm with you, just not with the "protect our lives, family . . . but not at the expense of taking a human life. I agree about the property aspect, but that's about all. As for my life, that of another, and liberty, nope I am taking arms for those. I was in the Army for 25 years, so it's just in me.
 
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