Christ says
- Thread starter smellycat
- Start date
Strictly speaking, Christians must not live side by side bodily w/ some folks:
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat
1 Cor 5:11
We should not even eat together w/ these people. That's why there is a need for excommunication:
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person
1 Cor 5:13
B
Boanerges(Inactive)
Guest
The Word of God does indeed tell us not to associate with those who say they are of Christ and live sinfully, purposefully ignoring His Word.
We are also to have discerning hearts as Church discipline is always done with restoration in mind. Keep a right heart towards them as they may yet repent and they are precious to Christ.
We are also to have discerning hearts as Church discipline is always done with restoration in mind. Keep a right heart towards them as they may yet repent and they are precious to Christ.
I have a couple of close family members with drinking and drug problems. Am I not to have them over to my house for the holidays and such? I love them with all my heart.
I think it's better that I do, because as least when they're here I have a chance to witness to them. They may not listen right that moment, but when their addictions become too much, they may remember my words.
Cheri
I think it's better that I do, because as least when they're here I have a chance to witness to them. They may not listen right that moment, but when their addictions become too much, they may remember my words.
Cheri
Of course , Cheri . You are the Salt and Light to them and Christ's example .And as they see your life and that you do not offer them any alcohol , they will come to respect you and want to know more about Jesus .
Thank you Dusty, I still have a lot to learn and by studying the Bible and being here, I try to do that every day. I couldn't imagine having to stay away from them all together.
I love learning about the Lord and what he wants and expects from me and it has happened here more than anywhere for me.
Thanks so much.
Blessings, Cheri
I agree with Johns assessment of this.
Matthew 18:15-17
Actually, the correct translation is go and reprove him, or show him his fault, condemn him, rebuke him, or convict him as the Greek word is used in 2Tim. 4:2, John 16:8, Jud. 15, 1Tim. 5:2, Tit. 1:13, Tit. 2:15, John 8:46, Tit. 1:9, 1Cor. 14:24, Eph. 5:11, John 3:20, Eph. 5:13, James 2:9, Luke 3:19, Heb. 12:5, Rev. 3:19. This is why Luther translated the word to mean "punish him between you and him alone."
Your first Christian responsibility to these people is to address them and the problem. "JUST BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU." Paul was saying that the first contact needs to be private. If it is resolved, then so be it, it need not go any further, no one needs to go around saying.."Bob was using drugs, but I streghtened him out..." Or anything like that.
You may even be faced with the unfirtnate situation of saying; "Look, you cannot be around my family unless you can control this problem."
I can't really answer that because I don't have any specifics, but regardless, Matthew 18 teaches us to begin one on one.
If that fails, take witnesses. This is so that a testimony can be established with legal witnesses. This should be someone well versed in scripture that can observe, instruct and guide from a Biblical persepective.
If that fails, take it to the church. The problem continues, you have done all you could, the offender still refuses to see the error of his/her ways. You have witnesses to the problem, take it to the church.
The church has been given this authority and this responsibility as is recorded in Matthew 16:19 Matthew 18:18 John 20:22 .
The church may then use excommunication as the ultimate disciplinary tool.
John pointed to 1 Corinthians 5:11 that is a perfect example. 1 Corinthians 5:13 is another.
Any Christian who is not in communion with their congregation, not in unity of faith is to be excluded ,FROM, said communion.
Some people are under the misconception that "excommunication" means getting kicked out of the club, or ostracized from the church.
That is simply a false understanding. Excommunication, like all Gods disciplines is designed to effectively restore.
To the sinner who refuses to accept that the Word of God prohibits a particular behavior or lifestyle, ie, drunkardness, sorcery, adultery, homosexuality,... then how can that person receive absolution?
In other words, a person cannot truly ask for forgiveness, or truly confess their sin, if in their heart they do not beieve they are doing anything wrong?
Are you following me?
They are unrepentant sinners, and the unrepentant cannot be absolved, and therefore, must be excluded from taking the Holy Eucharist.
2 Thessalonians 3:14 2 John 1:10-11
But once the Holy Spirit does enter into their heart, and restores that person, and that person says; "NOW! I SEE!!!"
I do understand, I should not have been living that way, then they are back in communion. They are now "repentant" and can receive absolution for their sins.
I know this is long but I would like to add one more thing.
Some people believe that the repentance is not enough, that the person must also abstain entirely from the activity.
I do not personally believe that, in my view, that belief indicates that we are saved by our own works and merit, rather than by the grace of God.
The forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation we receive are by the Word and promise of Christ Himself; "Given and shed for you, for the forgiveness of sins."
It is enough to have faith in Christ's own Words and to have repentance. The healing is a part of the process of Sanctification and may be instantanious, or may take a great deal of time and friction.
B
Boanerges(Inactive)
Guest
It should be noted that the scripture referred to in post two is in reference to the Church and not lost people.
We are in the world but not of the world.
I agree with Johns assessment of this.
Matthew 18:15-17
Actually, the correct translation is go and reprove him, or show him his fault, condemn him, rebuke him, or convict him as the Greek word is used in 2Tim. 4:2, John 16:8, Jud. 15, 1Tim. 5:2, Tit. 1:13, Tit. 2:15, John 8:46, Tit. 1:9, 1Cor. 14:24, Eph. 5:11, John 3:20, Eph. 5:13, James 2:9, Luke 3:19, Heb. 12:5, Rev. 3:19. This is why Luther translated the word to mean "punish him between you and him alone."
Your first Christian responsibility to these people is to address them and the problem. "JUST BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU." Paul was saying that the first contact needs to be private. If it is resolved, then so be it, it need not go any further, no one needs to go around saying.."Bob was using drugs, but I streghtened him out..." Or anything like that.
You may even be faced with the unfirtnate situation of saying; "Look, you cannot be around my family unless you can control this problem."
I can't really answer that because I don't have any specifics, but regardless, Matthew 18 teaches us to begin one on one.
If that fails, take witnesses. This is so that a testimony can be established with legal witnesses. This should be someone well versed in scripture that can observe, instruct and guide from a Biblical persepective.
If that fails, take it to the church. The problem continues, you have done all you could, the offender still refuses to see the error of his/her ways. You have witnesses to the problem, take it to the church.
The church has been given this authority and this responsibility as is recorded in Matthew 16:19 Matthew 18:18 John 20:22 .
The church may then use excommunication as the ultimate disciplinary tool.
John pointed to 1 Corinthians 5:11 that is a perfect example. 1 Corinthians 5:13 is another.
Any Christian who is not in communion with their congregation, not in unity of faith is to be excluded ,FROM, said communion.
Some people are under the misconception that "excommunication" means getting kicked out of the club, or ostracized from the church.
That is simply a false understanding. Excommunication, like all Gods disciplines is designed to effectively restore.
To the sinner who refuses to accept that the Word of God prohibits a particular behavior or lifestyle, ie, drunkardness, sorcery, adultery, homosexuality,... then how can that person receive absolution?
In other words, a person cannot truly ask for forgiveness, or truly confess their sin, if in their heart they do not beieve they are doing anything wrong?
Are you following me?
They are unrepentant sinners, and the unrepentant cannot be absolved, and therefore, must be excluded from taking the Holy Eucharist.
2 Thessalonians 3:14 2 John 1:10-11
But once the Holy Spirit does enter into their heart, and restores that person, and that person says; "NOW! I SEE!!!"
I do understand, I should not have been living that way, then they are back in communion. They are now "repentant" and can receive absolution for their sins.
I know this is long but I would like to add one more thing.
Some people believe that the repentance is not enough, that the person must also abstain entirely from the activity.
I do not personally believe that, in my view, that belief indicates that we are saved by our own works and merit, rather than by the grace of God.
The forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation we receive are by the Word and promise of Christ Himself; "Given and shed for you, for the forgiveness of sins."
It is enough to have faith in Christ's own Words and to have repentance. The healing is a part of the process of Sanctification and may be instantanious, or may take a great deal of time and friction.
Thank you for posting this. This is very good and informative.
I hope you find it helpful.
Just remember, The LCMS views the Holy Eucharist as Sacramental. We hold to two sacraments, the Lords Supper and Baptism.
Many denominations do not see these as sacraments and therefore they would not necessarily share the same belief.
I think, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, and Presbyterian hold simmilar doctrinal beliefs with regard to excommunication, whereas Protestant denominations differ considerably.
My point is, if you don't view the Lords Supper as Gods Grace and the forgiveness of sins, then using it in a disciplinary manner for restoration would be ineffective.
You're not alone. Many people believe that.
I place the blame for that on us, the clergy, because we do not do as good of a job of teaching this as we should.
The church is not some social club, or some group that one can join or be kicked out of, it is the Body of Christ, and if one member hurts, the entire body suffers.
Excommunication is like wrapping a sick child in blankets, the heat builds and the fever breaks. We as Christians have the awesome responsibility to wrap ourselves around those who are suffering from any afflictions and bring them back into healthy communion with God.
Also, one other important fact, the Pastor or the Preist do not ex-communicate, the congregation does. In the early church the Pope would ex-communicate Kings for the wrong reasons, this was a major contributing factor that led to the reformation.
smellycat
Account Closed
sorry but i think your very wrong,Christ came and drunk with the sinners,and was not affraid to do so,infact he would rather sit with them than the pharisees.being saved by Christ does not make us self righteous.it gives us hope of having a better relationship with God.ie getting closer.for us to get closer the middle ground has to be removed.we cut out the middle man who shoved a wedge between us and God.moses killed a man but was righteous with God,his reasons were to protect another from hurt.this war is a spirit war,lots of lies are everywere.
Yup, yup, it refers only to the members of the Church.
But now I have written unto you
1 Cor 5:11
Paul's letter was written to the Church:
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1 Cor 1:1-2
So relax people, it does not apply to your family. That's why I said it applies to some folks. Sorry I did not make it clear.
Right again. It is the ultimate tool:
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject
Tit 3:10
Ah yes, but it was God who commanded man to write this.
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1 Cor 14:37