The message of the Gospel is even older than that, but it doesn't make it irrelevant.
No one said it was irrelevant. The born again, or burn in hell theology is about 500 years old. Go back before that and the talk was on man's deficiencies, lack of love, grow in love, and act in love. Watch the movie LUTHER. There is a guy named John Tetzel that put on shows to scare the skubalon out of the people to get money for indulgences. It was very fascist, oppressing, and held them hostage as sure as the terrorists that threaten a life/lives does. That's how the HELL FIRE preaching started. Probably not exactly when, but in that era. It was a gimmic used by a church as a protestant you decided was evul and needed to be separate from your faith/church. So you embrace their teaching, even though we are protestant because we opposed it. It's just incredible. If you are so worried about hell, you can't look at the prize which is God enough to chart a course to get there. GRACE says spit on sin and stop sweating it. Live for GOD, not to protect your own butt by not sinning. BORN AGAIN, started (as we teach it today) shortly after Wesley's time in America. Buy any Church History book and read it, they will support my claim. YES we talked born again before that, but it didn't mean the same thing, much as GAY used today, is different than GAY used in 1970.
Cultural things need to move with the times but the saving message of the Gospel is timeless.
Well what you present is the picture that moves. The CONSERVATIVE EVANGELICAL fraction of the church today, FOR THE MOST PART, certainly not everyone, scream to keep to conservative ideals in the faith. But those ideals are rooted in the flavor or incarnation they preach as recently as 200 years ago. And that means they are LIBERAL ideals, as the previous 1800 years they weren't there, the thoughts were different. Of course telling a CONSERVATIVE with all their chest puffing, and screaming they are martyrs and are just doing the right thing, that THEY THEMSELVES are the ones who are liberal and changing things, really stirs up the pot. Until they can stop the emotional ranting, as a group, there is no reasoning with them.
There are two specific applications of this method used by Jesus:
You should read more. Jesus taught the Gospel in about a hundred ways. :|
1. Samaritan Woman (John ch4);
Which, interestingly enough, had no threats of hell in it. Just showed her she was doing the wrong thing, something she already was convicted about in the first place. But, no hell.
2. Rich young ruler (Mark ch10 v17-27)
Which was the message, after salvation, you have maturation. It wasn't a salvific conversation. The young man was saved, or Christ was a liar. I can't see Christ as a liar. "IF YOU WOULD BE PERFECT...." Switched the chat from salvation/grace/atonement, to maturity.
The parable of the sheep and goats, the ones that did the works were the ones that were saved. No hell there, just the ones who ACTED ON THEIR LOVE, were the ones that were saved. That is the MAIN message of salvation. If you will take the time I'll go through EVERY parable of Christ's and teaching in the Epistles and prove my point.
This method is not the "sinner's prayer" method. The sinner's prayer is often the final step in conversion. It is the response of a contrite heart that has believed upon the Savior and fallen at the foot of the cross in repentance and gratitude. There are many variations of the sinner's prayer and it can of course be miss-used, abused, manipulated etc...
HUGS, we concur!
No, I don't see Jesus ever talking someone through a sinner's prayer. I don't ever push for a sinner's prayer. I encourage people to pray to God, to seek His forgiveness and embrace His offer of eternal life through what Jesus did on the cross.
The point I was making was, there is no place, ever, that Christ taught, be saved or burn in hell. He taught love your neighbor. His teachings were in regards to how you live your life. The living the life was the FIRST issue, and those that lived the life, had an eternal life. He didn't threaten them with hell. So for you or anyone else to do it today is simply making Christ, and His Father a fascist as sure as Mussolini was.
Consider the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15 v 11 - 32) The son came to his senses "“When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death!".
Note the reason for his return was NOT "How could I have been so bad to my father? I am overwhelmed with love for him so I will return. If he happens to throw me some food, well that is just a bonus".
Well, first I'd say, for the sake of the parable, he was still the son, so he still had salvation. We are not talking salvation we are talking maturation. Same as the rich young ruler, RYR, which all are examples of being blessed are the poor in spirit.
The word for POOR means, in short, dependent, a beggar, relying on others. So when your Spirit is poor, you depend on God's Spirit. Your weakness makes you strong. The prodigal son was still a son metaphorically -- thus he was still saved -- and as a son never lost his familial rights, proven that he was welcomed home. Jesus told that to the jews, the chosen people, who weren't exactly living right, and he was calling them home. When the feller went home, as RITUALLY FILTHY?UNCLEAN as He was, the father broke all the laws, hugged him, pulled him in the house, cleaned and fed him. The message, even though the law says to keep that unclean away from camp until it's cleaned, and that it would also dirty your house, GOD wants you home and HE is the one that cleans you, AFTER salvation, to make you perfectly clean.
The RYR asked how to get eternal life, and Jesus answered the RYR said I've done that.
Jesus loved this RYR and RYR is one of the few specifically named as one Jesus loved. So the kid was discussing life or death, and Jesus loved Him.
Jesus didn't challenge him and correct his claim on keeping the commandments. JESUS RAISED LAZARUS FROM THE DEAD, (another Jesus was named to have loved) SURELY HE WOULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS FELLOW FROM DYING, and say something. He did to the woman at the well, and he didn't love her specifically by name as these others were mentioned.
When Jesus says, "if you would be perfect" the word for perfect means mature. Jesus is saying, GOOD you are saved, but to be complete, be all you can be, finished, matured, perfect, you must abandon your former life, and come to me fully dependent (see POOR IN SPIRIT).
JEsus said, to be finished, you must die to your former life and be born with a new life dependent on me. Thus, born again.
So, yes, I LOVE your parable. I just find it means so much more than you expressed, I'd like you to see the full picture.
As unsaved sinners, our initial motives may come out of a desire to be saved from the wrath to come,
Only because generations of oppressive threats from the Church has made that the thought you find first. That wasn't how Christ taught it, nor the apostles.
but as we seek out this God who saved us, His lavish grace, mercy and love should "woo" us and draw us closer so that through the process of sanctification we become less like us (fear, greed...) and more like Him (love...).
Is it right to package up the Gospel into a pleasant lifestyle option, something that is desirable for the benefits of here and now? Did the Martyred apostles live this rich, full, abundant life of blessing? No, their hope was in the life to come.
But they lived their life full of loving neighbor. ESPECIALLY THE MARTYRS. TO paint any other picture, is simply revisionist history. Bible teaches you become that MATURE PERFECT picture above through works. Those works require you to seek them out and execute them, not trip on them as you from out of fear from sin.
Asa Christian, I no longer live in "fear" but in love and faith. I am no longer a servant/slave, I am a son. Refer: Gal 4:7
(Yes I still serve; yes I still fear God in the sense that I respect and am in reverent awe and submission...)
But, you do live in fear. All of your message is avoid sin. If you accepted Grace, you wouldn't be so worried over sin, and it wouldn't dominate your conversation.
I'm not picking at you, just observing. If you are in Him and HE is in you, your life will be fulfilled in works of love, through faith, to HIS children and enemies as HE is the instrument HE chose to use to deliver His blessings. Not only that, but you would be filled with the Spirit, which means no longer in the Flesh, and His Seed, or Spirit would not let you continue in the sinful nature, nor let you even sin. That is every bit of it straight scripture. I don't put it here to accuse, just to sober up the romantic notions of the faith with some real life results. Way too many claim they have what they don't and will fail thinking they have arrived when they never started the race. They should hear this message, and have hopes to run it and not fail.