Serve God And Not Religion!
- Thread starter vengaturreino
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Paul said, I am not under the law of Moses, but am under the law of Christ ..
so I WILL not follow the lawless ways, but the laws of Christ under His legalism ..
Well, so that we all understand exactly what the Major said and believes, allow me to clear the air and be very specific.
Are there apostles today depends on how apostles are defined. Yes Michael, you are correct in saying that the word "apostle" literally means "one who is sent." So, by that interpretation, anyone who was sent by the Lord to do something would be an apostle.
That would then make Judas Iscariot an apostle. Is that what you really think that he was. A man on the same level of service with Peter, John, Paul??? Think Michael.....!
But that is a very, liberal interpretation that can only be used to fill in an agenda to the one who wants there to be apostles today. Such a liberal definition is not a sufficient answer. Biblically, an apostle was someone who was involved with Jesus and/or knew of Jesus before his crucifixion and after his crucifixion. Consider the following two sets of verses.
Now, over and over you have said that it is only what the Bible says that means anything to you. OK, here it is brother............
Acts 1:21, 22
"Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
Cor 9:1, 2.
“Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.”
There it is my brother. Now you can try and explain that away any way you choose.....but the Bible fact is that there are no Apostles today.
Notice that in Acts when the apostles are deciding on a replacement for Judas, Peter speaks of the necessity of someone who had been with Christ from the beginning. In 1 Corinthians Paul defends his apostleship by claiming to have seen the risen Lord. Therefore, we can conclude biblically that a true apostle in the New Testament style is no longer possible because it would require that the person had been with Christ and/or have seen the risen Lord.
I have no idea where you got such an idea from my friend. You are very wrong.
See comment #43.
I agree with your understanding of the "biblical usage" of the term ..
a person who is given the gift by the HS of "prophet, teacher, healer, administrator etc" are all given these as a direct ministry which God wishes you to embark upon (commissioned in God's will) ..
1Cr 12:29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
as well as the Church was built on only the fore-runner Prophets and the Apostles ..
(Jesus of course being the cornerstone upon which all is aligned by)
so if there were more then 12 Apostles, then a modern day one will still have the authority to still create the foundation ..
Eph 2:20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
so the 12 Apostles Jesus chose (Paul as a replacement) were not only
Apostles (leaders of faith) but were also disciples (followers of faith) ..
as we are but followers also ..
Mat 10:1 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
a person who is given the gift by the HS of "prophet, teacher, healer, administrator etc" are all given these as a direct ministry which God wishes you to embark upon (commissioned in God's will) ..
1Cr 12:29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
as well as the Church was built on only the fore-runner Prophets and the Apostles ..
(Jesus of course being the cornerstone upon which all is aligned by)
so if there were more then 12 Apostles, then a modern day one will still have the authority to still create the foundation ..
Eph 2:20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
so the 12 Apostles Jesus chose (Paul as a replacement) were not only
Apostles (leaders of faith) but were also disciples (followers of faith) ..
as we are but followers also ..
Mat 10:1 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
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Correct! PROPHETS ARE NOT NEEDED TODAY!.
Scripture shows us that the prophets of the New Testament had two primary purposes:
Eph. 4:11
11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers".
They were gifted men given to the Church and appointed by God for the purpose of helping to lay the foundation of the Church.
1 Corth. 12:28
"And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues."
Eph. 2:20
"built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone".
They, like the apostles, received God’s revelation and truth and proclaimed it to their churches.
Eph. 3:5
"which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."
It is important to remember that the early Church did not have a completed Bible, so God granted this revelation for the purpose of teaching His message to the Church. The New Testament prophets also spoke forth and taught the apostles’ doctrine. Everything taught by these prophets had to be consistent with the teaching of the apostles.
1 Corth. 14:36-37
"Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
Now, looking the the directions from the Bible and considering the two functions listed above from that very Bible, we can see that the office of prophet is one that is no longer necessary and has ceased within the Church because:
1. The foundation of the Church was laid long ago. And..............
2. God’s revealed Word was completed with the close of the New Testament canon.
Now THINK and read the Words of the Bible and ask yourself...........
If the purpose of a prophet was to reveal truth from God, why would we need prophets if we have the completed revelation from God in the Bible? If prophets were the “foundation” of the early church, are we still building the “foundation” today? Can God give someone a message to deliver to someone else? Absolutely! Does God reveal truth to someone in a supernatural way and enable that person to deliver that message to others? Absolutely! But is this the biblical gift of prophecy? No.
The office of Apostle and prophet in the New Test. were "temporary".
IMNSHO........whether is it a “word from the Lord” or a supposed prophecy, our response should be the same. Compare what is said to what the Word of God says. If it contradicts the Bible, throw it out. If it agrees with the Bible, pray for wisdom and discernment as to how to apply the message to our lives today. That folks comes from the proper TEACHING of the Word of God, not a prophetic massage.
Well, anyway........that is my thoughts on the subject.
I hear people claiming "legalism" as a bad term .. my use of "apple" was likening this notion to a deceitful misrepresentation of truth, that many people "bite into" (embrace) ..
lawful and lawless are biblically presented ..
(one being good, the other being bad)
legalism (lawfulness) applies to the Law of Moses ..
but it also applies to the Law of Christ ..
sorry for my lack of clarification ..
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MichaelH
Inactive
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
You know Major, I don't disagree with you. There were 12 Apostles of the lamb. Jesus said those that believe on Their Word. Those 12 (Paul later) were given the assignment to give the Word by which we believe today.
What bothers me Major is that I have to explain that away? I am not sure what is up with you. If I say something then I am just not saying it, I must have scripture. You have this ability to just ignore half of what I said and go right on making your point with zero consideration of changing what you want to believe to line up with scriptures.
It seems if you want to believe something based on bad doctrine then come hell or high water your going to believe just that. Forget what I just said, forget any scripture I gave.
What did I say............. There are 12. There are only 12 Apostles of the lamb.
Having 12 Apostles of the lamb that were originally sent out does not denote there are no more Apostles.
Those that have seen Jesus or had a personal revelation from Him to give the Word were of the 12.
We still need some to go out and do the same things with the Word Given.
Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
(Act 14:14)
Barnabas was what? A what? An Apostle. How that possible?
1Th 2:6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.
Who is WE..........Silvanus was one of them....... Apostle.
Php 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
Who is Epaphroditus? Another Apostle.
Php 2:25 And I thought it necessary Epaphroditus--my brother, and fellow-workman, and fellow-soldier, and your apostle and servant to my need--to send unto you,
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
(Rom 16:7)
Andronicus and Junia on the same level as Paul and Apostles. Some don't like this because they don't like the idea of a Female apostle but it's how the Greek reads.
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
(Act 13:2)
So, if Barnabas needed to be called as an Apostle to do the Work of an Apostle who was not part of the 12.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:11-12)
And if the Saints are not perfected yet....
And zero scripture saying the Office passed away.
Then there must still be Apostles.
If just the 12 could be Apostles as you claim then The Holy Spirit must have been confused on some other scriptures.
Or it could be Major got confused.
I don't know why I have to continue to repeat myself over and over.............. Seriously Major, it wears on you when someone ignores you to favor a broke belief system.
What are you going to do with those scriptures?
More important Question though......... Why do you want to do away with a ministry office? I suspect the root is in that, not scripture.
Also what got in your head that we don't need Apostles or prophets. Where is your scripture that says we don't need them? I gave you a scripture that says we do................. Where is your scripture that says we don't?
You know Major, I don't disagree with you. There were 12 Apostles of the lamb. Jesus said those that believe on Their Word. Those 12 (Paul later) were given the assignment to give the Word by which we believe today.
What bothers me Major is that I have to explain that away? I am not sure what is up with you. If I say something then I am just not saying it, I must have scripture. You have this ability to just ignore half of what I said and go right on making your point with zero consideration of changing what you want to believe to line up with scriptures.
It seems if you want to believe something based on bad doctrine then come hell or high water your going to believe just that. Forget what I just said, forget any scripture I gave.
What did I say............. There are 12. There are only 12 Apostles of the lamb.
Having 12 Apostles of the lamb that were originally sent out does not denote there are no more Apostles.
Those that have seen Jesus or had a personal revelation from Him to give the Word were of the 12.
We still need some to go out and do the same things with the Word Given.
Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
(Act 14:14)
Barnabas was what? A what? An Apostle. How that possible?
1Th 2:6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.
Who is WE..........Silvanus was one of them....... Apostle.
Php 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
Who is Epaphroditus? Another Apostle.
Php 2:25 And I thought it necessary Epaphroditus--my brother, and fellow-workman, and fellow-soldier, and your apostle and servant to my need--to send unto you,
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
(Rom 16:7)
Andronicus and Junia on the same level as Paul and Apostles. Some don't like this because they don't like the idea of a Female apostle but it's how the Greek reads.
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
(Act 13:2)
So, if Barnabas needed to be called as an Apostle to do the Work of an Apostle who was not part of the 12.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:11-12)
And if the Saints are not perfected yet....
And zero scripture saying the Office passed away.
Then there must still be Apostles.
If just the 12 could be Apostles as you claim then The Holy Spirit must have been confused on some other scriptures.
Or it could be Major got confused.
I don't know why I have to continue to repeat myself over and over.............. Seriously Major, it wears on you when someone ignores you to favor a broke belief system.
What are you going to do with those scriptures?
More important Question though......... Why do you want to do away with a ministry office? I suspect the root is in that, not scripture.
Also what got in your head that we don't need Apostles or prophets. Where is your scripture that says we don't need them? I gave you a scripture that says we do................. Where is your scripture that says we don't?
I most certainly agree with you that there WAS only 12 Apostles, as I had previously cited the same verse .. however I think you didn't understand the use of "Prophets" in the verse .. it is a reference to the "12 Major Prophets" sent before Jesus came .. they also laid the foundation .. and hence why you see these 24 special elders who are given thrones in the book of Revelations ..
I also agree with Candelario Mario Villa as to the need still within the church for the gifts of the HS, as these are people the HS is directly using to accomplish within the church .. as during Jesus' ministry (and afterwards) miracles were used to "help people believe" and still do .. "HS inspired teaching" is a gift that the church will never lack a need of .. but prophets really do not have a great role anymore, as God can still reveal some specifics of end-times for believers, but would have not much value to the non-believers as to help believe or give confirmation as it is fulfilled ..
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You have made a very good point about creating the foundation. And if only twelve apostles were called, I would submit to the doctrine of only twelve apostles. However: in the church in Antioch were prophets and teachers, then "...the Holy Spirit said, 'Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them...they sent them away." So, was Barnabas an apostle, or not? By the reading of that scripture, I gather he was. BUT...Barnabas (and Paul) were not called to lay another foundation than the one that was laid (planned): no one is called to do that; whether it be the Ministry, any denomination, or anyone else in the Church. "I have laid the foundation, and another builds thereon...For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." So the question becomes: what is the foundation? (this definitely requires a new thread)
And yes: the apostles were also disciples. The Apostle Peter called himself an elder, and "...a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed." Peter was writing to the elders of the Church, identifying himself as first an elder, and also and apostle. He did not try to magnify himself through the Office of apostle, but was content in being a disciple!
Agreed. There were 12 major Prophets and 12 minor prophets. I would have to disagree that those prophets laid the foundation for the church as the church was a "Mystery" until Paul revealed it in the New Test.
Agreed that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are needed today in the church. But what are those gifts?
Healing, tongues, slain in the spirit, drinking poison? NO!
The fruit of the Holy Spirit as found in Galatians is........
Galatians 5:22-26
English Standard Version (ESV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
Read comment #43.
YOU said.........
"Then there must still be Apostles."
The BIBLE says.....
Ephesians 2:20
"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets Jesus Christ him self being the chief cornerstone."
There are those who claim to be apostles and prophets by their own word. Others claim it by showing their signs, wonders and miracles. This so-called signs and wonders movement is part of an effort to restore what they understood to be the five-fold ministry described in Ephesians 4:11.
The proliferators of the movement claim that these dynamics are what is necessary for the church to have power. In actuality, those who lay claim to this ministry today are operating under a misunderstanding of apostles and prophets of the Bible. The Lord confirmed His signs to the apostles' words to show a transition of authority from Israel and its priesthood to the apostles who were laying down the foundation for the church, a new entity.
This unique anointing testified to Israel and to the gentiles a new order of leadership, the demonstration of spiritual authority was transferred to the church Christ body. Becoming aware of what the Bible says about these positions in the early church can help us guard against misleading teachings in the church today.
Validated by signs and miracles, the apostles deemed the faith for the whole Church and established the written word by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Once the scriptures were completed, the Church had all that was necessary in the area of revelational truth. The apostles' instructions were in words, then put to paper for all succeeding generations on how to live in obedience to the faith.
Once a foundation is laid down and a house is built, we don't rebuild the foundation.(Eph.2:20) Neither should we rip apart the house that the Lord has built. A true apostle would point out the false ones. Yet today, not only do those who claim to be apostles fail to do so, but there are threats and manipulations for those who do not go along with what they are trying to portray. 'Jezebel,' 'Antichrist,' and 'Blasphemer of the Holy Spirit' are common terms used for those who speak against them.
_______________________________________________________
I'm sorry that you don't see the need in the Church for the Ministry of the Lord. But I must agree with you that the offices in the Ministry are "temporary": that includes the offices of evangelist, pastor, and teacher. However, if we still need those three latter offices, we also need the apostle and prophet. Why? "...for the perfection of the saints..."!
MichaelH
Inactive
Go ahead Major..... Ignore those other scriptures I gave that Showed clearly there were Apostles outside the 12 that laid the foundation.
We don't need any more anointed offices to start works......... Got it.
Rom 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:
Barnabas must not been an apostle........... or the others I mentioned........I'll just rip that part out of my bible so I am not confused
anymore.
Who are these folks? Why do I care?
Miracles have nothing to do with Apostles, They are there even if your not an Apostle. Look at Stephan.......... Apostles do work the Gifts of the Spirit, but you don't have to be an Apostle to lay hands on the sick so they be healed.
I want your scripture that says we don't need these two offices anymore. I gave you one where they are for the perfecting of the saints. You give me one where it says we don't need them.
Your dodging my post. Your wrong, you have been taught wrong and If I started taking pages out that you claim can't be for us, I would not have much left to read.
Your scripture Major...................
We have the 12 that laid the foundation.................. We have zero scripture saying that there can't be other Apostles. ZERO........ I gave you scripture with other Apostles not of the 12.
Now you give my your scripture where we don't need 2 of the ministry offices.
Stop beating around the bush, and complaining what someone else does..... Don't hang with them if you don't like it, but here we are talking scripture.
Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,(Act 14:14)
Barnabas was what? A what? An Apostle. How that possible?
the Greek reads: "But (as) messengers, Barnabas and Paul hearing (of it) tore their robes leaping into the crowd crying out.
note: apostolos should have been translated as messengers above, the same as in the other verses below ..
1Th 2:6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.
Who is WE..........Silvanus was one of them....... Apostle.
once again, apostolos should have been translated as messengers .. the same as the 12 were the chosen messengers, they also choose assistant messengers .. the same as a church may have an assistant pastor .. he does have authority, but only through the one in whom he assists ..
Php 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
Who is Epaphroditus? Another Apostle.
another assistant messenger of the Gospel ..
Php 2:25 And I thought it necessary Epaphroditus--my brother, and fellow-workman, and fellow-soldier, and your apostle and servant to my need--to send unto you,
as you see, Paul makes it quite clear, as an "assistant messenger" he is under Paul's authority to "serve God by serving Paul ..
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. (Rom 16:7)
once again, apostolos should have been translated as messengers ..
Andronicus and Junia on the same level as Paul and Apostles. Some don't like this because they don't like the idea of a Female apostle but it's how the Greek reads.
actually it reads in the male .. the female rendition of the name did not appear until it was translated into Latin ..
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.(Act 13:2)
So, if Barnabas needed to be called as an Apostle to do the Work of an Apostle who was not part of the 12.
it merely says the HS wanted assistant messenger Barnabas and messenger Paul to do something specific ..
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ - Eph 4:11-12
this verse was written when all 12 Apostles were still alive .. hence it refers to the 12 chosen .. in the beginning, these you astutely named, were assistant messengers to get the Gospel proclaimed and established ..
the Gospel HAS BEEN proclaimed and established ..
(a success story)
all we need do is REPEAT THE GOSPEL "handed down" to us ..
hence Apostles/Messengers and assistant apostles/messengers are NO LONGER NEEDED ..
since it HAS BEEN "handed down to us" we who now proclaim the Gospel are "ambassadors" for Christ ..
God Bless you ..
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MichaelH
Inactive
apostolos has always been Apostolos, has always been Apostolos.
What you wanted it translated to does not change the Word used.
Apostles are messengers, Not just where you want it changed at.
Sent ones, that is the actually Greek Word. To say there are no more Apostolos is to say there are no more sent out.
If the Holy Spirit meant some messenger He would have used Kerusso.
The Holy Spirit was talking about an office, when the Holy Spirit used Apostolos. I don't think the Holy Spirit Got confused.
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:12)
If there are no Apostolos, then all of us must be perfected. Apostles start foundations. I already gave that scripture.
So I assume Some here that some don't believe we need to start any more churches even though there are lots of places that need them.
It's an anointed office to go in where nothing is.
The Evangilist brings people in.
The Pastor shepards the people.
The Teacher teaches.
The Apostle is anointed to start the Work.
The Prophet exorts and edifies.
We need all these offices.
If the Holy Spirit meant something different the Holy Spirit would not have used Apostles.
And God set fourth Apostles.......... God called some Apostles. It's a calling, an office.
Read the Word as it's written!!! The Holy Spirit got it right the first time. I should not even have to go over these basic lessons.
What you wanted it translated to does not change the Word used.
Apostles are messengers, Not just where you want it changed at.
Sent ones, that is the actually Greek Word. To say there are no more Apostolos is to say there are no more sent out.
If the Holy Spirit meant some messenger He would have used Kerusso.
The Holy Spirit was talking about an office, when the Holy Spirit used Apostolos. I don't think the Holy Spirit Got confused.
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:12)
If there are no Apostolos, then all of us must be perfected. Apostles start foundations. I already gave that scripture.
So I assume Some here that some don't believe we need to start any more churches even though there are lots of places that need them.
It's an anointed office to go in where nothing is.
The Evangilist brings people in.
The Pastor shepards the people.
The Teacher teaches.
The Apostle is anointed to start the Work.
The Prophet exorts and edifies.
We need all these offices.
If the Holy Spirit meant something different the Holy Spirit would not have used Apostles.
And God set fourth Apostles.......... God called some Apostles. It's a calling, an office.
Read the Word as it's written!!! The Holy Spirit got it right the first time. I should not even have to go over these basic lessons.
No problem with me mate. We all agree that we will all disagree at one time or another. I guess this is one of those times.
You said........
"I'm sorry that you don't see the need in the Church for the Ministry of the Lord".
I do not know what that means my brother? I never said such a thing or even suggested it. What ministry are you referring to?
Prophet/apostle. because you just agreed that those two were temporary.
Today we need men who can and will teach, pastor and be soul winners from what what we have as our guide lines in the Scriptures.