I don't know if this is directed at me or not, but I will say that I really don't care about the past except God brings me remembrance when He wants to have me say something. I have the Holy Spirit now in every moment. Someone can't be in the past or future and be walking in the Spirit at the same time unless God is bringing the past or future to the person spiritually for His purposes. It is in giving one's whole self to God now, not that someone gave their whole self to God in the past or will do so in the future, but that they right now give them self to God moment by moment, turning everything that comes up in their life over to God as it occurs.
Learning Genesis
- Thread starter TubbyTubby
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I'm going to be delayed a bit with replying and designing a planet. Bit busy with Mothers day activities for a while.
I was just going to reply to you. I still will and really would like to continue talking with you. I am hoping you will come back.
Cool tubby.. Maybe I have not seen the gentle side of you?
Clearly not, we know very little about each other.
I guess when we disagree with others, we can assume the worst? But glad to see the better things in you tubby
If this is the literal meaning, I would find it more convincing if it were described as 'one great light and a disc to reflect that light during the night'. Even that is a bit vague seeing as the moon spends half of it's orbit in the daytime sky but it would be more accurate and thought provoking.
I think what you are saying is important. Of course you would want a perfect God to create a perfect world. I don't know that there are too many people who wouldn't want that. The question is did God create a perfect world?
Although we hadn't gotten this far yet, the bible says, "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good (Genesis 1:31).
So why would God call everything good if it wasn't perfect?
First we need to know why God created everything. God created people in His own image. Why? Because he wanted people whom He could give and receive real love with and have real communication with? Just imagine for a moment if you were the only one on earth or even if there were one or two others with you, but no one else. It is the amazing interaction of people, the different ways that people love and give love, caring, and sharing that makes life wonderful. Those who are loners and don't give and receive love are usually very unhappy. In fact would you rather have all the riches in the world and be utterly alone, or have a circle of those who really love you and be poor? Not that these are the only two options, but I am demonstrating a point.
God wants to give love and he wants to receive love because he is love.
"God is love" (1 John 4:8).
Therefore God wanted people to have free will so that they would have the choice of wanting to really love God or not wanting God. If love is forced, it isn't true love. God wants people to love him because they really do for who he is.
When God created the earth and everything in it he created everything very good and perfect. He put man and woman on earth to love and get love from, giving them free will to trust in his love or to doubt his love. Real love, that is perfect love requires mutual trust. God doesn't sin (which is lack of faith in perfect love) so since he doesn't sin he trusted Adam and Eve to have faith in his love and to love him.
How do we know sin is lack of faith in love:
The bible says, "Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’c 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’d 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:34-40).
"everything that does not come from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23). Lack of faith in God is really a lack of belief in God's love.
The bible tells us of the characteristics of love:
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails" (1 Corinthians 13:4-8).
God is love and thus has all these characteristics including not being proud or self-seeking, and always trusting that we will believe in His love.
So then how can there be a world like this if a loving God created it?
When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, what was happening is that they broke their trust in God by believing something evil and negative. The serpent said to the woman, "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:5). Before Eve ate she knew only the love of God. After she believed evil (not love which included the belief that God was proud, self seeking, and untrustworthy) Eve then knew evil which allowed her to believe and trust in evil (again that which is not love). So she decided to leave the perfect state of trust and love and believe evil which then separated her from love, because not love can't be in love or it wouldn't be perfect love.
Was this God's fault. No. He had to give the option to choose love or not love or Adam and Eve would just be like programmed machines. What other option did God have if he wanted real love.
Not love is separation from God and causes spiritual death, because love is true life and not love is death. So now Adam and Eve had spiritually allowed by choice death and separation to enter into their selves by sinning.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23).
The wages of sin is death is a spiritual principle. There was always evil otherwise good would not really be good. It is the contrast that shows good to be good.
God did not want to be separate from the humans however, even though he himself could not have spiritual union with sin and death or then he would be imperfect and have not love in himself by uniting with it.
Therefore God, although Spirit, became manifest as a human to pay the sin debt (cause justice to occur) so that humans could be free from their own debt. It is like if someone were sentenced to the death penalty and another could come and take the death penalty for them. This is what Jesus did. Does this sound like a prideful, self seeking way? Jesus although God humbled himself to be made as if He sinned, when it was we that sinned. Isaiah 53:2-10 shows how much Jesus suffered for us:
53" Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief" (Isaiah 53:2-10).
If we look at it a little closer:
"He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground" (This shows that even when Jesus was young [tender shoot] he did not get nurtured and loved (symbolized by the dry ground).
"He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him." (Not only was he seen as ugly but he wasn't respected either).
" He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not." (Many people hated him rejected him, and said cruel things to him and about him and yet he took it without saying anything evil when he could have backed out because he loved us so much). Jesus had constant daily persecution from the Pharisees as shown by a few of the examples in the bible. "When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. 46When they sought to seize Him" (Matthew 21:45-46). "The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him" (Mark 8:11-12). " "Then the Pharisees went and plotted together how they might trap Him in what He said." (Matthew 22:15-22). "So they watched Him, and sent spies who pretended to be righteous, in order that they might catch Him in some statement, so that they could deliver Him to the rule and the authority of the governor (Luke 20:20). "But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils" (Matthew 12:24). Not only were the Pharisees cruel to him and wanted to kill him, but the Saducees also hated him and constantly tested him.
"Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted." (People thought God was punishing him for his sins, when in fact he was taking the punishment for our sins). The suffering of Jesus included being homeless as well. "Jesus replied, "Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head" (Luke 9:58)
"But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed." (He was so crushed (beaten) that he was unrecognizable as a human). "Just as there were many who were appalled at him -- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness" (Isaiah 52:14).
"We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all." Not only had all of us turned away from God by our sins and indifference or unbelief, but even his disciples at the end turned from him. "Then everyone deserted him and fled" (Mark 14:50). Peter who said to Jesus that he would never deny him ended up denying Jesus three times right in front of Jesus as seen in Luke 22:54-62. Jesus did nothing but love and teach Peter and the disciples yet he was deserted by them all.
"He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth." (Jesus who did no wrong ever didn't defend himself, but willingly went to the horrible beating and torture and death on the cross for us. This is miraculous faith and love.) "The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, "Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?" 61But He kept silent and did not answer" (Mark 14:60-61).
"By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. 9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering" (He was judged guilty even though he was innocent. He suffered daily and was tortured and killed for our sins).
Was this treatment "easy street" for God? No. The bible says, "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame" (Hebrews 12:2). Jesus despised having to go through this, yet for the joy (which is having people to eternally love him) he did it. If there was any other way he would have taken it." Jesus said, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done" (Luke 22:42). God the Father did not want his son going through this, yet there was no other way for justice has to be for there to be perfection.
So let's examine some of the things you have brought up. The world was perfect, but when sin (which is not love and thus imperfection) was acknowledged by Adam and Eve it became part of existence, because God gave Adam and Eve dominion over existence. Not that evil didn't exist. It always has existed, which is why the serpent could speak as he did, but without the acknowledgement of it there is no power in it. If Eve had not acknowledged the serpent's words the evil words would have had no impact on her. This can be seen in our daily earthly lives. If someone is rude or mean, we have a choice to acknowledge it and let it exist as negativity in us or we have the choice to ignore it and forget it and it doesn't impact us. The knowledge of good and evil is basically going out of faith in the good and believing evil.
Worship in the bible is not some proud pompous egotist wanting everyone to bow down to them Worship is an expression of love and adoration for God whom we respect (which is what is meant by fearing the Lord) because His love is perfect in that he gave all and gives all from humble, beautiful, kind, and patient love. We worship (lay aside all we have as an act of love) because he has laid all aside for us and we are grateful to Him.
Now I already explained that God wants us as more than playthings, but why does he still allow sickness, disease, catastrophe, etc. This is because every sin produces evil. Evil is a spiritual manifestation that effects the world in physical manifestation. It is evil that causes the woes of the world. Someone who is a believer who has faith can be healed of sickness and disease because God can only work through faith. Remember, "whatever is not from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23). Even though God has faith to heal people, if they don't have faith it is a sin for God to heal them unless they ask and believe for help with their faith, because then God would be imposing his will on those he gave free will to.
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you" (Mark 10:52).
"He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you" (Mark 5:34).
Jesus although wanting to do miracles for others couldn't do them in a certain place because the people's lack of faith.
"He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them" (Mark 6:5).
God joins his faith to ours for the miracle.
It is people creating sin that causes the destruction. God could stop destruction by imposing his own faith on things, he doesn't need our faith except that he won't impose himself on someone. Not only does God not want to impose himself on others, but if he fixed things continuously, because continuously people are creating sin, then there would never be a world of perfection obtained for all, only a constant state of intervention. The destruction also allows people to see that this is not what they ultimately want eternally and gives them a chance to choose the one who is perfection rather than destruction.
In the end when God pulls himself out separating love (who He is) from not love (sin) all that will be left for those who believed in not love is destruction, because the only reason this earth is not fully destroyed by evil is that God holds evil back.
Those who chose God will not have any destruction because they did so by faith and chose God and His love wanting it.
God did show himself to people more than once. Jesus was on earth many years. Jesus was God in the flesh. There is historical proof of this that many unbelievers and scholars agree upon. Even though God walked here, however many did not believe who he was.
The difference between all other religions and gods and Christianity and their God is that all other rely on people doing their own works to achieve something. Christianity is the only religion that relies on God doing all the work and taking all the hardship for us. All we have to do for this free gift is trust him for it. There is a big difference. I could say much more, but have to leave right now and this is already a giant post.
May God bless you. Olivia
No. UK
Well I've read about all sorts of miracles and testimony of people being healed or rescued. The miracle business seems quite biased though if you don't mind me saying. It's usually only those that already believe in God that get to witness a miracle while I get nothing, not even a tiny little miracle, not once.
I know you will go on to cite non-believers experiences but lets try to accept that the general rule is that you need faith in the first place before you are privvy to miracles. You would of thought that of all the people on Earth, God would go out of his way to send a miracle to atheists like me? If it were a fantastic miracle that I can't explain then he would have shifted my thinking. With all respect, wondrous events are a bit wasted on those that believe if you ask me, they don't need any more convincing.
It's true that a believer is more likely to recognize the source of a miracle or even, perhaps, that a miracle has occurred. Beyond the Darkness by Angie Fenimore (http://www.bibleprobe.com/angiefenimore.htm ) is a small book about her successful suicide where she went to the edge of hell. She was brought back by the power of God, a much changed person. There are other near death experiences that detail people dying - experiencing the negative, calling out to God (whom they didn't believe in) and being brought back to life. One of the most well known of these negative experiences, is a man who died in a hospital inParis http://blog.godreports.com/2012/03/...ar-death-experience-in-hell-left-him-changed/.
In regards to your own life - are you sure? Sometimes when we review our own life, looking back on "crucial" events, sometimes we can see "coincidences" and strange turnings that we ignored or did not that lead our path. It's hard to describe the process but I have witnessed it in others where in depth stream of consciousness can lead to new insights into God's hand in our lives - believer or no.
In regards to your own life - are you sure? Sometimes when we review our own life, looking back on "crucial" events, sometimes we can see "coincidences" and strange turnings that we ignored or did not that lead our path. It's hard to describe the process but I have witnessed it in others where in depth stream of consciousness can lead to new insights into God's hand in our lives - believer or no.
Please Forgive me for the question asked. I had no intent to challenge your ability or relationship with God.
I have been at this for a very long time and over the years there has been a movement in Christianity to "spiritualize" things that were not understood instead of accepting them simply as they are written. For that reason when I read your comment a bell went off and obviously that thinking does not apply to you.
The results of "spiritualizing" Scriptures is that that then the Bible contains the Word of God and I maintain that the Bible IS the Word of God.
So again......I have no intent to harm you or challenge you.
No problem. I agree the bible is the Word of God. God bless you.
Tubby you said...the general rule is that you need faith in the first place before you are privvy to miracles
That's not true. I experienced some things not of the natural order BEFORE I had faith...it was these occurrances that made me begin to search for explanations...I gave one indication earlier but I am going to tell you one now (though I am sure you will not believe it, though if you apply ONLY believing what YOU experienced you would not believe much of science either...
One afternoon, a group of people (I was one) were sitting having lunch in the Kitchen of our local settlement house (a plcae that offers the neighborhood services and programs...there were about ten people (some are still acquaintances and only one other became a Christian eventually)...
We are all sitting at large center table when all of a sudden the blender up on the counter turns on, goes through all 7 speeds one at a time (at which point we are "What the Hell?" crossing the room) then shut off. Greg says "Can a power surge do that? I don't think so." When we pulled it out a bit from the wall we realized the device had not even been plugged in (the chord was wrapped and had a twisty tie around it)...
Another time (same place) we were in the lounge at night getting ready to close up (now understand I was still an agnostic at this point and most were degree holding atheists)...the building was shut down for the night and there was no one else supposed to be in the building...suddenly the shower in the 2nd floor bathroom goes on full tilt boogie...we conjecture that someone must have hid (a homeless person or something) and thought we were gone. We all ran upstairs. The shower was fully on and the door was locked. We pounded and pounded insisting they let us in with no response. Al ran down stairs to get the key...he comes up (shower still on) and as soon as he puts the key in and turns the shower turns off....we open the door and the steam pours out...THERE WAS NO ONE THERE and no way out except passed us...
Coincidence? Gas pocket? Huh? We all looked at each other eyes bulging like a comedy movie and took of like bats out of hell....we all talked about it later...there is no materialistic or even rational explanation for these phenomenon...they really occurred, no drugs, no hallucinations (which cannot happen to groups anyway)...no scientifically explainable cause...
Believe it or not Ripley...it happened!
Two other such occurrences elsewhere, along with these, FORCED me to reconsider my materialist delusion and accept things exist outside the natural order...this was the BEGINNING of my search which led to "faith"....I was in my early twenties and did not come to "God" until I was 32 years old...but never again could I say such things do not exist.
In His love
brother Paul
That's not true. I experienced some things not of the natural order BEFORE I had faith...it was these occurrances that made me begin to search for explanations...I gave one indication earlier but I am going to tell you one now (though I am sure you will not believe it, though if you apply ONLY believing what YOU experienced you would not believe much of science either...
One afternoon, a group of people (I was one) were sitting having lunch in the Kitchen of our local settlement house (a plcae that offers the neighborhood services and programs...there were about ten people (some are still acquaintances and only one other became a Christian eventually)...
We are all sitting at large center table when all of a sudden the blender up on the counter turns on, goes through all 7 speeds one at a time (at which point we are "What the Hell?" crossing the room) then shut off. Greg says "Can a power surge do that? I don't think so." When we pulled it out a bit from the wall we realized the device had not even been plugged in (the chord was wrapped and had a twisty tie around it)...
Another time (same place) we were in the lounge at night getting ready to close up (now understand I was still an agnostic at this point and most were degree holding atheists)...the building was shut down for the night and there was no one else supposed to be in the building...suddenly the shower in the 2nd floor bathroom goes on full tilt boogie...we conjecture that someone must have hid (a homeless person or something) and thought we were gone. We all ran upstairs. The shower was fully on and the door was locked. We pounded and pounded insisting they let us in with no response. Al ran down stairs to get the key...he comes up (shower still on) and as soon as he puts the key in and turns the shower turns off....we open the door and the steam pours out...THERE WAS NO ONE THERE and no way out except passed us...
Coincidence? Gas pocket? Huh? We all looked at each other eyes bulging like a comedy movie and took of like bats out of hell....we all talked about it later...there is no materialistic or even rational explanation for these phenomenon...they really occurred, no drugs, no hallucinations (which cannot happen to groups anyway)...no scientifically explainable cause...
Believe it or not Ripley...it happened!
Two other such occurrences elsewhere, along with these, FORCED me to reconsider my materialist delusion and accept things exist outside the natural order...this was the BEGINNING of my search which led to "faith"....I was in my early twenties and did not come to "God" until I was 32 years old...but never again could I say such things do not exist.
In His love
brother Paul
All the miracles that Jesus did were not only in front of believers, but many unbelievers including many Pharisees and Saducess that had the hardest of hearts.
When Jesus was here he didn't only do his miracles in front of believers, but unbelievers as well.
I'm in Brussels.
The purpose of a miracle is not to convince but to express His awesome love.
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