Gotcha Cal...back to the OP...whats next?
Learning Genesis
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Speaking of the presence of light before the creation of the sun, It is understood by most that the light spoken of was the presence of God. OK, so now when Jesus was crucified, at about the sixth hour (around 3 pm) therre was darkness over all the land.
Mat 27:45. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
Mark 15:33. And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Luk 23:44. It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour,
According to a few Roman historians there was at about that time also earth quakes and un natural darkness over other places including Nicea
Many see this darkness as the Father turning His face from Jesus as He bore our sin. Be that as it may, ::
Joh 1:4. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
When Jesus was crucified, the light of God temporally departed, while the redemptive work on the cross was being achieved. It was after this period of darkness that Jesus cried out "it is finished" not after His resurrection, nor before the crucifixion.
It is after this period of darkness, not at the beginning that Jesus cried out asking why the Father had abandoned Him......interesting.
Mat 27:45. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
Mark 15:33. And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Luk 23:44. It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour,
According to a few Roman historians there was at about that time also earth quakes and un natural darkness over other places including Nicea
Many see this darkness as the Father turning His face from Jesus as He bore our sin. Be that as it may, ::
Joh 1:4. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
When Jesus was crucified, the light of God temporally departed, while the redemptive work on the cross was being achieved. It was after this period of darkness that Jesus cried out "it is finished" not after His resurrection, nor before the crucifixion.
It is after this period of darkness, not at the beginning that Jesus cried out asking why the Father had abandoned Him......interesting.
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Well scientifically, everywhere we look in the Universe under a certain condition (at 3 degrees Kelvin), we see the reflection/afterglow of a light that existed before any stars/suns...Tubby knows about this and would say it was the flash of the big bang but the point is there was no light and then instantaneously (we know it was because God said) there was and that this happened before the stars and moons come into being...(again by His calling)...
Did God's creating voice have a sound? Light and sound simultaneously...hmmm!
Did God's creating voice have a sound? Light and sound simultaneously...hmmm!
As for the darkness at the crucifixion, it was real physical darkness...the question is what was it?
Sometime between the years 50 and 100 A.D., a Historian named Thallus wrote a History of the World, it covered from the fall of Troy, to the mid-first century. He records the above mentioned phenomena very casually, believing it to be an eclipse of the Sun, without even remotely connecting it to the Jesus events. Here, we have the first external confirmation of this Biblically recorded phenomena from a totally disinterested source. Indeed the whole known world fell under a sudden darkness and this was his record of that event. Again, Thallus is drawing absolutely no connection to the crucifixion, yet records the occurrence of the phenomena.
Years later, another Historian named Julius Africanus, in his ‘History of the World’ argues against an eclipse as the most probable explanation! Yet further attested to the sudden darkness as occurring, the ‘what it was’ being the issue that was debated. In the case of Thallus he wrote neutrally concerning the facts during the lifetime of the men who engineered the crucifixion. But as far as Chrestos was concerned, after all, to a patriotic Roman citizen, what is one more crucified enemy of Rome? So no metion of Him is made. Now if as the critical school originally had claimed, that this strange darkness was merely the addition of a devise, at the time there would have been some dispute regarding Thallus’s declaration, wouldn’t you think? If Caesar knew it was a lie, what do you think would have happened to Thallus? Yet, again, nothing happened to him. Rome accepted this History as a true accounting of the facts!
Last of all there is Phlegon, another disinterested Roman Historian that was previously a slave who had been set free by none-other than Tiberius Caesar only decades after the event. He records the event of the darkness as being exactly between the 6th and the 9th hour, during the full moon of the very month specified in the crucifixion account (same hours, same exact day?). Phlegon as a disinterested and more than likely hostile source, confirms the time, and the day, which happened to be the Passover. The Scriptures say that this mysterious darkness occurred and so doesn’t all the extant Historians we have found so far. Hence, void of any interest in perpetuating this Jewish movement in the eyes of Rome, Phlegon unknowingly ties the event of the darkness to the very Passover recorded in the Gospels, without ever mentioning its alleged relation to Y’shua/Jesus!
Historiography declares this to be confirmation par excellence! Why would this group, not at all interested in the gospel story, validate an apparently insignificant detail, if it were not the truth? In other words, their concern was the peculiarity of the event, not the Christ message.
what's really cool however, it is modern science that has spoken to the miraculous nature of this historically validated event, and proves that Africanus actually was correct. Thallus was not correct because Passover is always on a full moon, and modern science absolutely proves that an eclipse of the Sun can never occurred on a full moon. Hello! Let’s repeat that one more time…AN ECLIPSE OF THE SUN CANNOT OCCUR ON THE DAY OF A FULL MOON. Therefore, this sudden darkness that factually happened was not a natural occurrence! Something else was going on there. But what? Could it be ummmm, GOD? God was physically effecting our time/space reality....this one is also for Tubby!
So in light of the Christ event the testimony of Thallus and Phlegon contrasted by Julius’s rebuttal becomes even more significant. Why? Because something outside of known natural laws, most assuredly occurred on that day, during that exact time, and up until recently the only indication of this fact was in the Gospel story. Hallelujah! So how come these revealed facts are always conveniently excluded from the presentations meant to feed the indoctrinated? Could they purposely be avoiding the truth for some reason? Hmmm! It has certainly been selectively excluded. Selah!
Sometime between the years 50 and 100 A.D., a Historian named Thallus wrote a History of the World, it covered from the fall of Troy, to the mid-first century. He records the above mentioned phenomena very casually, believing it to be an eclipse of the Sun, without even remotely connecting it to the Jesus events. Here, we have the first external confirmation of this Biblically recorded phenomena from a totally disinterested source. Indeed the whole known world fell under a sudden darkness and this was his record of that event. Again, Thallus is drawing absolutely no connection to the crucifixion, yet records the occurrence of the phenomena.
Years later, another Historian named Julius Africanus, in his ‘History of the World’ argues against an eclipse as the most probable explanation! Yet further attested to the sudden darkness as occurring, the ‘what it was’ being the issue that was debated. In the case of Thallus he wrote neutrally concerning the facts during the lifetime of the men who engineered the crucifixion. But as far as Chrestos was concerned, after all, to a patriotic Roman citizen, what is one more crucified enemy of Rome? So no metion of Him is made. Now if as the critical school originally had claimed, that this strange darkness was merely the addition of a devise, at the time there would have been some dispute regarding Thallus’s declaration, wouldn’t you think? If Caesar knew it was a lie, what do you think would have happened to Thallus? Yet, again, nothing happened to him. Rome accepted this History as a true accounting of the facts!
Last of all there is Phlegon, another disinterested Roman Historian that was previously a slave who had been set free by none-other than Tiberius Caesar only decades after the event. He records the event of the darkness as being exactly between the 6th and the 9th hour, during the full moon of the very month specified in the crucifixion account (same hours, same exact day?). Phlegon as a disinterested and more than likely hostile source, confirms the time, and the day, which happened to be the Passover. The Scriptures say that this mysterious darkness occurred and so doesn’t all the extant Historians we have found so far. Hence, void of any interest in perpetuating this Jewish movement in the eyes of Rome, Phlegon unknowingly ties the event of the darkness to the very Passover recorded in the Gospels, without ever mentioning its alleged relation to Y’shua/Jesus!
Historiography declares this to be confirmation par excellence! Why would this group, not at all interested in the gospel story, validate an apparently insignificant detail, if it were not the truth? In other words, their concern was the peculiarity of the event, not the Christ message.
what's really cool however, it is modern science that has spoken to the miraculous nature of this historically validated event, and proves that Africanus actually was correct. Thallus was not correct because Passover is always on a full moon, and modern science absolutely proves that an eclipse of the Sun can never occurred on a full moon. Hello! Let’s repeat that one more time…AN ECLIPSE OF THE SUN CANNOT OCCUR ON THE DAY OF A FULL MOON. Therefore, this sudden darkness that factually happened was not a natural occurrence! Something else was going on there. But what? Could it be ummmm, GOD? God was physically effecting our time/space reality....this one is also for Tubby!
So in light of the Christ event the testimony of Thallus and Phlegon contrasted by Julius’s rebuttal becomes even more significant. Why? Because something outside of known natural laws, most assuredly occurred on that day, during that exact time, and up until recently the only indication of this fact was in the Gospel story. Hallelujah! So how come these revealed facts are always conveniently excluded from the presentations meant to feed the indoctrinated? Could they purposely be avoiding the truth for some reason? Hmmm! It has certainly been selectively excluded. Selah!
Moreover Paul, the secular reporting of this darkness and accompanying seismic activity included Nicaea, which sustained major structural damage at that time as well. Now Nicaea is somewhat north of Jerusalem and many many miles displaced. So not only was an eclipse (by the moon) not going to happen at a time of full moon, the required size of a postulated umbral or even significant penumbral shadow by any 'rogue' celestial body is seen to be extremely unlikely.....bordering on absolutely impossible.
Another basic truth is that God by His very existence as creator, must necessarily exist outside of or beyond the created order of things.
That being the obvious truth, snce God is the ultimate source of light, a few things become clear(er).
Defining a dimension (in which we are) and then focusing His attention here, when He said 'let there be light'; that heralded His presence here. A stepping into this physical universe so to speak.
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It makes me think of this verse. "He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good" (Matthew 5:45). Without God's light and love in existence beyond the believer, everything would be sin, yet it is His presence that allows the unbeliever to experience goodness even where there are no believers, yet a believer immersed in the Holy Spirit is radiating forth light wherever they go.
"nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 5:15-16).
CAl can you show me some reference to the seismic activity on that day?
The following is not the source I was drawing from, but I think it will suffice. I'm very short on time just at the moment but I will look at this link more closely and also see if I can find my earlier link
http://www.textexcavation.com/phlegontestimonium.html
I replied to #509 in #511... what did I not answer that you still wish to inquire of me?
Indeed you've proven my point... the sin has been dealt with. By taking a child of bad people and placing him into a nice home, those foster parents have to deal with the sin. If the child were raised by his original parents who did not deal with their sin, would pass it on to their children. There is a lot about genetics that scientists do not know, and sadly Christians are totally ignorant of.
But, with you, there's no way to show you the truth because you're not willing to accept it. This is the only reason I'm involved with this thread, to show you that what you dismiss from the scriptures is proven in life day in and day out. I've pointed out over and over how the scriptures deal with the simple and super complex things of life. Yet you dismiss them. There's not much left to say though we continue all the way to the book of Revelation.
Yes, but there are plenty of examples where a child from a 'good' home has turned out bad. Really this must be obvious from the subject passage. The iniquity of the first father that is to be passed on to the third and forth generations obviously started with that father, who presumably came from upright parents.
I believe a better exegesis of that passage would be that the consequences of a really bad action will take 3-4 generations to dissipate, so to speak.
Illustration::: My Grand-pappy was a multi billionaire,.......until the tax office caught up with him, locked him up and threw the key away. My dad was an upright, honest fellow, but he was brought up in a poor estate, with a jailbird for a father.
I'm doing a bit better than my dad, but I have not been able to fully restore the 'family fortunes'.
The above is based on the following:
Exo 20:5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 34:7. Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Num 14:18. The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
Deu 5:9. Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
I believe a better exegesis of that passage would be that the consequences of a really bad action will take 3-4 generations to dissipate, so to speak.
Illustration::: My Grand-pappy was a multi billionaire,.......until the tax office caught up with him, locked him up and threw the key away. My dad was an upright, honest fellow, but he was brought up in a poor estate, with a jailbird for a father.
I'm doing a bit better than my dad, but I have not been able to fully restore the 'family fortunes'.
The above is based on the following:
Exo 20:5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 34:7. Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Num 14:18. The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
Deu 5:9. Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
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Yes, I'm talking about a predisposition towards certain wrongful bents in ourselves. Given the correct environment all is well. Put into a bad situation and the tendency comes out. You cannot be tempted with something you do not want. You can put a beer/wine/soda in front of me and I'm not tempted... put a brownie with ice cream and I'm all over it! This is the "sin" that's passed down, which is why we're not perfect when we're saved and still have to wrestle with the flesh to subdue it.
I am on a diet and you guys are killing me!!!!!
If you mean the background radiation map from the very early Universe, the big bang signature if you like, and before the first stars formed then I'm not sure it could be called light as we know it. It's a picture of variations in temperature.
The first stars formed some 100 million later and those first nuclear fusions of condensed Hydrogen clouds into Helium were the first time the Universe was 'lit up'.
"Did God's creating voice have a sound? Light and sound simultaneously...hmmm!"
I don't know whether it would have made a sound although presumably there were pressure waves associated with the expansion but no medium for sound to propagate through. I don't know the answer really, what does the bible say?
Clearly a solar eclipse can only happen during the new moon, you don't need to be a scientist to appreciate that. Absolutely impossible to occur with a full moon. Can you paraphrase your question so I can answer, I'm a bit busy to go through everything right now sorry.
Here we come back to faith again. Faith is the medium for the sound waves.
"Jesus said to the woman, 'Your faith has saved you; go in peace."'
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).
"By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible" (Hebrews 11:3).
Faith is power that makes an open portal through belief. Power (energy) is what manifestation is. Or to explain it better belief is power.
God creates by faith. He creates the energy manifestation of what He hopes for and what He doesn't see. He makes it real belief that by faith he manifests into real actuality in the physical. God is love and His love and faith are power working together.
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