God has already limited Himself through the promises He has made. He cannot break these promises, so by definition He has limited Himself.
Destiny Or Free Will?
- Thread starter Big Moose
- Start date
Brother Michael is passionate about his faith. Nothing wrong with that. Keep that passion Michael.
Not to mention he is following the scripture, comparing scripture with scripture, as it should be.
No need to get rude because he is right. The scripture backs him up.
Matthew 17:20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
The disciples were given a seed of faith from God, as we all are, He is no respecter of persons. Here, the disciples wanted the faith to cast out the demon, but their faith had not grown even to the size of a mustard seed. So we do receive faith from God, but it is up to us to allow it to grow by prayer, fasting and hearing, and learning, the Word.
Not to mention he is following the scripture, comparing scripture with scripture, as it should be.
No need to get rude because he is right. The scripture backs him up.
Matthew 17:20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
The disciples were given a seed of faith from God, as we all are, He is no respecter of persons. Here, the disciples wanted the faith to cast out the demon, but their faith had not grown even to the size of a mustard seed. So we do receive faith from God, but it is up to us to allow it to grow by prayer, fasting and hearing, and learning, the Word.
Luke 17:
5 And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”
6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. 7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? 8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”
If I am understanding this, Jesus is saying you must go beyond just doing what you are supposed to do, to earn or receive more faith. Jesus did not say, "Ok, here is more faith." It is a growing process as is all His creation.
5 And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”
6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. 7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? 8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”
If I am understanding this, Jesus is saying you must go beyond just doing what you are supposed to do, to earn or receive more faith. Jesus did not say, "Ok, here is more faith." It is a growing process as is all His creation.
MichaelH
Inactive
Job is a great example of this principle. God's man Job did serve and obey God, but broke a very serious spiritual law giving place to the enemy.
In fact, the bible warns us about what Job did far more many times then the bible warns us about adultery, or murder. Idolatry was mentioned the 2nd most times.
God's position is that he has a man He wants to protect and bless, but Job gave entrance to the enemy.
This put Job in a position to blame God for like 30 some chapters and proclaim how righteous he was. To make Job's situation worse, not one time did Job call out to God saying he did not understand, help Me!!! No, Job spent how many chapters wondering about the Why, when Job could not have even understood the why. Get help from God, then have God show you the why, if it be you or just the devil being stupid.
Elihu being the only one that spoke on God's behalf, and the rest in Hot water with God, alongside Job said.........
For he hath said, (JOB) It profiteth a man nothing that he should delight himself with God. Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity. For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways. Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
(Job 34:9-12)
God will not pervert his Word, even for our sake. We are in line with what God said, or out of line with what God said. Job said what profit a man that he should delight himself with God. Speaking this way does not give God those Warm fuzzy feelings toward us.
Elihu also points out to Job that God had nothing to do with his Kids murder, His stuff being taken and him being sick.
Giving permission to a disobedient, murderous, lying angel to Make someone sick, have their children murdered is evil. (At least in the USA it is)
Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee? Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
(Mal 3:13-14)
We know what Job did, but Job did not understand what he did. God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, and everything that pertains to this life is already ours, but through the knowledge of Him...... No knowledge, then you do without.
(Hose 4:6) (2 Peter 1:3)
God sent his word to heal us and deliver us, it does us well to believe what God said. (Psa 107:20)
Promising something is not limiting yourself. God can't lie, simply because it is not in his nature. However, that doesn't make God less powerful. Similarly, the fact that God has promised Abraham an everlasting kingdom does not make God less powerful.
MichaelH
Inactive
Nothing was said about God being less powerful, nothing was said about decreasing the power of God and rising the power of man. Where do you get these ideas from?
What was said is God is not free agent to just do things outside of his Word, or is a type of outlaw, and will always keep his word, even if that helps or does not help someone.
Someone that wants to disobey God all the time, and God sends others to to help, and get the person on the right track is still not going to be blessed, though God would like to bless them and get them straightened out.
God does not violate his own word, and that is all that was said. How you came up with those ideas is confusing.
Some of you are saying that God doesn't know the future. That's decreasing the power of God a LOT.
MichaelH
Inactive
Even I know how it ends, because God said how it ends.
Nobody said God does not know the future, nor can the future be changed as God has spoken. How are you reading things into this that are not there?
The thread is about how God deals with people. Everything backed by scriptures.
However, Religion causes people to loose comprehension and reading ability, I understand.
Here, We are told exactly what is going to happen.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(Rev 20:12)
Here, God shows us how he finds things out.
And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
(Gen 18:20-21)
What alerted the Lord there was an issue in Sodom?
Psa 145:19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.
How is God going to know if the sin, matches the Cry, what did God say he had to do?
And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
(Gen 11:5)
You should be here to learn, you won't get taught right by those who hold false doctrines of election. I can shred any election doctrine, and I have been very nice so far. I don't have an opposing Election doctrine, I have scriptures and don't believe in any of those old man made doctrines. That is why people have a hard time against election doctrine, trying to fight it with another broke doctrine.
Now answer the simple questions, the smart answer is just to believe what God said, and not try to wrap a doctrine around something very easy to understand.
I am trying to help here.
It is simply illogical to say that God knows the final outcome of mankind's story, but has no idea of what will happen tomorrow. If God knows when the Earth will cease to exist and when the armies of Armageddon will attack Jerusalem, how can he ignore what my neighbor is going to think tonight?
MichaelH
Inactive
I can see you were unable to answer the simple questions, though I even gave support scripture under the main scripture questions to help.
Nobody said God does not know what is going to happen tomorrow. The end Jesus said comes when the gospel is preached all over the World. Peter said in the Last days there will be scoffers saying, "Where is his coming, things continue as before." The Lord is not slack concerning this promise, but will have been long suffering toward mankind not wanting anyone to perish but come to the truth.
A good indication that how soon the body of Christ get in line, is a indication of when God pushes the big red button.
You seem to be reading into things that were never said. I understand this is caused by doctrine. What is it you think people are saying about Destiny and free will?
You have to take all scriptures into account. Did Zacharias have a choice? Seemed God was going to use him regardless. Did Jonah have a choice? He seemed to have a "Slight" change of heart when the fish came to take him where he was suppose to be.
What about King Saul?
The Lord wanted him to succeed, but God said he repented for Making Saul King because Saul would not obey him.
I am confused. Didn't you say that God does not know everything?
MichaelH
Inactive
I only posted scriptures. I asked the simple question of How does God know what He knows.
The other question would be, what does God care to know?
There are some things God won't even hear.
Psa 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
The verse that you cited does not mean that God cannot or would not know what's in your heart, provided that you think of iniquities. It means that if you think of iniquities, God would not hear your prayers (i.e., he want give you what you are asking for).
First off God is not limited (except perhaps self imposed limitations, like not immediately smiting all who sin as soon as they sin but providing an atonement/redeemer) if in His sovereign plan He determines to require there to be an appropriate initial response on man's part...recognition of this plan (as taught by the Apostles as the proper interpretation to their immediate appointed church leaders, which taught this to their disciples) is expressed in the writings of all the earliest church fathers, universally (no matter where there was a church writing and no matter which apostolic line it grew from)....to put it simply and clearly THERE WERE NO CALVINISTS for the first 400 years of the church...
What happened (and Augustine explains this and refutes this extremism) was that after Augustine rightly rebuked the Pelagians (who took mans free will to such an extreme that grace took a back seat) another group started to arise who misinterpreted his apologetics against Pelagius to mean that grace was so ALL POWERFUL that free will played no role at all (hence later we called this heresy Calvinism)...and so in On Grace and Free Will, Augustine goes forth and similarly and quite scripturally refutes this opposite extreme...making it plain that predestination and free will ARE the plan of God and the Bible bears this out.
The murderer and self appointed arm of God, John Calvin, started a divisive 500 year war and division among Christians that still rages. He was a prolific writer and scholar no doubt, however to hold this view one would have to ignore or re-interpret the plenary wording of the Holy Scriptures in over 70 passages...so though there are as many that can be used to support this view (if emphasized and the rest ignored or re-interpreted) then the "TRUTH" or correct doctrine must be one in which all the scriptures fit and do not be made to appear to oppose one another.
It has been spoken to you (in the hearing of your ears) by some of us here...the opposite of your view IS Pelagianism and both are one-sided...the view expressed here is NOT Pelagianism. if you need to read what Augustine said about this division causing misinterpretation of his apologetic let me know and I will gather a summary for you to explore (he references over 30 scriptures to make his point)
Do you believe that faith is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8)?
You use Ephesians 2:8 as a support for this view...sadly that is a Calvinist re-interpretation....faith in Ephesians 2:8 is NOT the gift referred to...
Ephesians 2:8 is often quoted as a proof text to show that God is the one who gives faith. Reformed theology goes even farther and states that a person must be regenerated (born again) before he can exercise faith. R.C. Sproul states: “A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: Regeneration precedes faith.” (Sproul, R.C., Chosen by God, Wheaton: Tyndale House, 1986, p. 72.)
Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson whose Grammar of the Greek New Testament is considered a definitive work, makes this statement about the gender of τοῦτο:
“…οῦτοs agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate of attributive…. In Eph. 2:8… there is no reference to πίστεως in τοῦτο, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before.” (Robertson, A.T., A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, Broadman Press, Nashville, Tennessee, 1934, p. 704.)
“Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned by faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.(Robertson, A. 1997. Word Pictures in the New Testament. Vol.V c1932, Vol.VI c1933 by Sunday School Board of the Southern Baptist Convention. Logos Research Systems: Oak Harbor)
Dr. Kenneth Wuest, Professor of New Testament Greek at Moody Bible Institute, states:
The words, “through faith” speak of the instrument or means whereby the sinner avails himself of this salvation which God offers him in pure grace. ..The word “that” is touto (τουτο), “this,” a demonstrative pronoun in the neuter gender. The Greek word “faith” is feminine in gender and therefore touto (τουτο) could not refer to “faith.”
All Greek scholars worth their salt and especially any who are not Christians and ALL Orthodox (for whom this Greek is their native tongue)...agree (all except the Reformed camp of course...it has to be made to appear that this is what it says to support their preconceived conclusion)....
Sorry my brother but perhaps there was a reason for your coming to this place....
In His love
brother Paul
You use Ephesians 2:8 as a support for this view...sadly that is a Calvinist re-interpretation....faith in Ephesians 2:8 is NOT the gift referred to...
Ephesians 2:8 is often quoted as a proof text to show that God is the one who gives faith. Reformed theology goes even farther and states that a person must be regenerated (born again) before he can exercise faith. R.C. Sproul states: “A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: Regeneration precedes faith.” (Sproul, R.C., Chosen by God, Wheaton: Tyndale House, 1986, p. 72.)
Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson whose Grammar of the Greek New Testament is considered a definitive work, makes this statement about the gender of τοῦτο:
“…οῦτοs agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate of attributive…. In Eph. 2:8… there is no reference to πίστεως in τοῦτο, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before.” (Robertson, A.T., A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, Broadman Press, Nashville, Tennessee, 1934, p. 704.)
“Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned by faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.(Robertson, A. 1997. Word Pictures in the New Testament. Vol.V c1932, Vol.VI c1933 by Sunday School Board of the Southern Baptist Convention. Logos Research Systems: Oak Harbor)
Dr. Kenneth Wuest, Professor of New Testament Greek at Moody Bible Institute, states:
The words, “through faith” speak of the instrument or means whereby the sinner avails himself of this salvation which God offers him in pure grace. ..The word “that” is touto (τουτο), “this,” a demonstrative pronoun in the neuter gender. The Greek word “faith” is feminine in gender and therefore touto (τουτο) could not refer to “faith.”
All Greek scholars worth their salt and especially any who are not Christians and ALL Orthodox (for whom this Greek is their native tongue)...agree (all except the Reformed camp of course...it has to be made to appear that this is what it says to support their preconceived conclusion)....
Sorry my brother but perhaps there was a reason for your coming to this place....
In His love
brother Paul
You made the point right there by your 'carnal' response. We are born carnal-(until we are born again) it is the nature of man. We are 'shapen in iniquity'. Just because that 'flies in the face of your reality' does not mean that it flies in the face of scripture! We are all under the power of Satan until Jesus Christ turns us to the power of God! Your quote flies in the face of scripture...And shows that you do not understand Jesus purpose for coming down to Earth!
TC
'Pre' destined simply means that God made a way for us to be reconciled to Him, from the very beginning.
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MichaelH
Inactive
What??
I never said the verse meant God does not know what is in the heart.......... Let's do this, Just assume I know enough scriptures to where You don't have to post anymore responses like that.
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
(1Jn 3:20)
You actually think I would mean that knowing there is a scripture specifically stating that God knows all things about the heart?
I don't do that, nor do I post things without even know what others will post to counter.
I SAID, There are some God won't hear...................... Not that God did not know there was iniquity in the Heart. It means God won't hear the prayer, just like you said.................
How you come up with things I never even said or meant? How is that even possible?
I am about done here, I don't see any lights coming on. It could be Paul may be of some help to you.
Exodus 1 tells us "8 Then a new king, to whom Joseph meant nothing, came to power in Egypt.F)" 9 “Look,” he said to his people, “the Israelites have become far too numerous" for us." 10 Come, we must deal shrewdly with them or they will become even more numerous and, if war breaks out, will join our enemies, fight against us and leave the country.”
See how long before Moses was born, before God hardened Pharaoh's heart to not let the people go, it was already the Pharaoh's heart and mind "to deal shrewdly" and to do whatever it would take to not let them "leave the land"?
brother Paul