I a sure there are a few views but without doubt Ephesians 2:8 does not say faith is the gift and Hebrews 12 does not say Jesus is the progenitor...Romans 12 :3 says God gives to every man a measure of faith...what some do with it is inexcusable...Romans 1 tells us that though they knew of God they glorified Him not as God...exchanging the glory of God for a lie...So the measure He gives to every man is not that level or quality of faith which saves (for only God determines who will be saved) but it is enough to either receive or reject...
Destiny Or Free Will?
- Thread starter Big Moose
- Start date
Ephesians 2:28 says the following: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God". Some people say that the word "this" ("that" in other translations) cannot refer to faith because "this" is written in a neutral gender and faith is a feminine noun. However, they fail to say that grace is also a feminine noun. So, the word "this" must refer to the entire preceding clause: "For by grace you have been saved through faith". If the entire clause is a gift of God, then neither salvation, nor grace, nor faith are our own doing. It is clear that faith, grace, and salvation are all gifts of God. Comments?
MichaelH
Inactive
Well, Faith is a Female noun, but that does not determine anything. In the Article itself gives a good clue, but comparing other scriptures gives even a better picture.
It's by Grace we are saved, not of our own works, but a gift from God.
Grace is the whole room or foundation by which we are saved.
To get into that Grace, you need something called faith. Faith alone does not save you, it's needs to be connected to something.
Faith is the evidence of things hoped for, the substance of things not seen. Faith needs to be focused on something and in this case it's God's grace.
Jesus said whosoever shall believe............... so who will believe, will be saved. The grace is already there to believe on.
Faith only comes one way, you have to hear something to have faith for it. If they don't hear, how can they believe? Rom 10:16-17
Just because a person has not heard, does not remove the grace part. It is still there.
My definition of faith is the ability to believe God despite physical evidence or what the circumstances say.
That ability only comes one way, and Jesus outlined how that happens in Mark 4. Every single person goes through these stages.
Mark 4
1) Satan comes right away to steal the Word.
2) The word received but because of persecution for the Word sake, they give up and become offended.
3) They receive the Word, but through time and wanting other things, or having many cares of this World, the Word is taken from them and unfruitful.
4) Some produce 30, 60, 100 fold what the word says they can have.
What the Word produces, is up to the person, not God. Jesus went on to say.
Take heed what you hear, for what measure you met, it shall be measured to you again, and to him that will hear more shall be given.
A person can produce 30 fold of the Word, but through taking heed, Jesus promised a greater increase.
This works the same for getting saved, healed, prosperous, and everything God said as it's all the same word.
God just does not zap people with faith to believe what he said, it starts by hearing first, the Word as a seed gets planted (Mustard seed) it's a persons choice to receive or reject the Word.
You are right that grace and faith are in the feminine...therefore "are saved" is the key word here (which was the point)...your argument is with 2000 years of interpretation and about 95% of all scholars, not with me...saved is the gift qualified by "by grace through faith" which is how the gift is obtained. Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness...and when Abraham ascended the mount with Isaac and had him tied and ready He intervenes and says "...for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son..."
You must realize that in the Greek New Testament all commands of God are in the imperative mood which precludes the ability of man to respond rightly...so man is definitely depraved but not TOTALLY if this means absolutely incapable. The whole counsel of God must be considered on any matter not just one or the other side of what can be made to appear as opposites...therefore I set before you life and death (blessing and curse), therefore choose life (but sadly all did not).
You must realize that in the Greek New Testament all commands of God are in the imperative mood which precludes the ability of man to respond rightly...so man is definitely depraved but not TOTALLY if this means absolutely incapable. The whole counsel of God must be considered on any matter not just one or the other side of what can be made to appear as opposites...therefore I set before you life and death (blessing and curse), therefore choose life (but sadly all did not).
It is not true that scholars believe that "this" refers to "salvation". Most of the scholars, including those who think that faith is not a gift, say that "this" refers to "for by grace you have been saved through faith". Hence, it is evident that faith, salvation and grace are a gift of God.
Faith is a gift of God. Check Matthew 16:16-17.
With reference to those persons who so preach and defend man's free will, as boldly to deny, and endeavor to do away with, the grace of God which calls us to Him, and delivers us from our evil deserts, and by which we obtain the good deserts which lead to everlasting life: we have already said a good deal in discussion, and committed it to writing, so far as the Lord has vouchsafed to enable us…
(this would be the Pelagians)
But since there are some persons who so defend God's grace as to deny man's free will, or who suppose that free will is denied when grace is defended, I have determined to write somewhat on this point to your Love, my brother Valentinus and the rest of you, who are serving God together under the impulse of a mutual love
(these would be those in the same error as John Calvin)
Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards. For they are given that no one might be able to plead the excuse of ignorance…
There are, however, persons who attempt to find excuse for themselves even from God (saying all they do or did is God’s will). The Apostle James says to such: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then, when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death… The Lord hates all abomination, and they that fear God love it not. He Himself made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of His counsel. If you be willing, you shall keep His commandments, and perform true fidelity. He has set fire and water before you: stretch forth your hand unto whether you will…
What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will? What means the happy man, of whom the Psalmist says that his will has been the law of the Lord? Does he not clearly enough show that a man by his own will takes his stand in the law of God?
Then again, there are so many commandments which in some way are expressly adapted to the human will; for instance, there is, Be not overcome of evil, Romans 12:1, and others of similar import, such as, Be not like a horse or a mule, which have no understanding; and, Reject not the counsels of your mother; Proverbs 1:8 and, Be not wise in your own conceit; Proverbs 3:7 and, Despise not the chastening of the Lord; Proverbs 3:11 and, Forget not my law; Proverbs 3:1 and, Forbear not to do good to the poor; Proverbs 3:27 and, Devise not evil against your friend; Proverbs 3:29 and, Give no heed to a worthless woman; Proverbs 5:2 and, He is not inclined to understand how to do good; and, They refused to attend to my counsel; Proverbs 1:30 with numberless other passages of the inspired Scriptures of the Old Testament. And what do they all show us but the free choice of the human will? So, again, in the evangelical and apostolic books of the New Testament what other lesson is taught us? As when it is said, Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth; Matthew 6:19 and, Fear not them which kill the body; Matthew 10:28 and, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself; Matthew 16:24 and again, Peace on earth to men of good will. Luke 2:14 So also that the Apostle Paul says: Let him do what he wills; he sins not if he marry. Nevertheless, he that stands steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his own will, and has so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, does well. 1 Corinthians 7:36-37 And so again, If I do this willingly, I have a reward; 1 Corinthians 9:17 while in another passage he says, Be sober and righteous, and sin not; 1 Corinthians 15:34 and again, As you have a readiness to will, so also let there be a prompt performance; 2 Corinthians 8:11 then he remarks to Timothy about the younger widows, When they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they choose to marry. So in another passage, All that will to live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution; 2 Timothy 3:12 while to Timothy himself he says, Neglect not the gift that is in you. 1 Timothy 4:14 Then to Philemon he addresses this explanation: That your benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but of your own will. Servants also he advises to obey their masters with a good will. Ephesians 6:7 In strict accordance with this, James says: Do not err, my beloved brethren . . . and have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect to persons; and, Do not speak evil one of another. James 4:11 So also John in his Epistle writes, Do not love the world, 1 John 2:15and other things of the same import. Now wherever it is said, Do not do this, and Do not do that, and wherever there is any requirement in the divine admonitions for the work of the will to do anything, or to refrain from doing anything, there is at once a sufficient proof of free will. No man, therefore, when he sins, can in his heart blame God for it, but every man must impute the fault to himself. Nor does it detract at all from a man's own will when he performs any act in accordance with God. Indeed, a work is then to be pronounced a good one when a person does it willingly; then, too, may the reward of a good work be hoped for from Him concerning whom it is written, He shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27
This was written by St. Augustine to refute the misrepresentation of his apologetic against Pelagius who would deny God’s sovereignly determined requirement of man in the process of receiving Him or rejecting Him…if it were every bit all of God irresistibly, then man has excuse (God made me to do it).
But also see in this that Augustine is not saying man saves Himself or that man can ONLY always choose evil (the Reformed concession)…He is saying when man hears (by word or the Spirit) man must make an initial decision…though without God first man would not on his own respond at all.
In His love
Brother Paul
(this would be the Pelagians)
But since there are some persons who so defend God's grace as to deny man's free will, or who suppose that free will is denied when grace is defended, I have determined to write somewhat on this point to your Love, my brother Valentinus and the rest of you, who are serving God together under the impulse of a mutual love
(these would be those in the same error as John Calvin)
Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards. For they are given that no one might be able to plead the excuse of ignorance…
There are, however, persons who attempt to find excuse for themselves even from God (saying all they do or did is God’s will). The Apostle James says to such: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then, when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death… The Lord hates all abomination, and they that fear God love it not. He Himself made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of His counsel. If you be willing, you shall keep His commandments, and perform true fidelity. He has set fire and water before you: stretch forth your hand unto whether you will…
What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will? What means the happy man, of whom the Psalmist says that his will has been the law of the Lord? Does he not clearly enough show that a man by his own will takes his stand in the law of God?
Then again, there are so many commandments which in some way are expressly adapted to the human will; for instance, there is, Be not overcome of evil, Romans 12:1, and others of similar import, such as, Be not like a horse or a mule, which have no understanding; and, Reject not the counsels of your mother; Proverbs 1:8 and, Be not wise in your own conceit; Proverbs 3:7 and, Despise not the chastening of the Lord; Proverbs 3:11 and, Forget not my law; Proverbs 3:1 and, Forbear not to do good to the poor; Proverbs 3:27 and, Devise not evil against your friend; Proverbs 3:29 and, Give no heed to a worthless woman; Proverbs 5:2 and, He is not inclined to understand how to do good; and, They refused to attend to my counsel; Proverbs 1:30 with numberless other passages of the inspired Scriptures of the Old Testament. And what do they all show us but the free choice of the human will? So, again, in the evangelical and apostolic books of the New Testament what other lesson is taught us? As when it is said, Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth; Matthew 6:19 and, Fear not them which kill the body; Matthew 10:28 and, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself; Matthew 16:24 and again, Peace on earth to men of good will. Luke 2:14 So also that the Apostle Paul says: Let him do what he wills; he sins not if he marry. Nevertheless, he that stands steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his own will, and has so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, does well. 1 Corinthians 7:36-37 And so again, If I do this willingly, I have a reward; 1 Corinthians 9:17 while in another passage he says, Be sober and righteous, and sin not; 1 Corinthians 15:34 and again, As you have a readiness to will, so also let there be a prompt performance; 2 Corinthians 8:11 then he remarks to Timothy about the younger widows, When they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they choose to marry. So in another passage, All that will to live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution; 2 Timothy 3:12 while to Timothy himself he says, Neglect not the gift that is in you. 1 Timothy 4:14 Then to Philemon he addresses this explanation: That your benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but of your own will. Servants also he advises to obey their masters with a good will. Ephesians 6:7 In strict accordance with this, James says: Do not err, my beloved brethren . . . and have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect to persons; and, Do not speak evil one of another. James 4:11 So also John in his Epistle writes, Do not love the world, 1 John 2:15and other things of the same import. Now wherever it is said, Do not do this, and Do not do that, and wherever there is any requirement in the divine admonitions for the work of the will to do anything, or to refrain from doing anything, there is at once a sufficient proof of free will. No man, therefore, when he sins, can in his heart blame God for it, but every man must impute the fault to himself. Nor does it detract at all from a man's own will when he performs any act in accordance with God. Indeed, a work is then to be pronounced a good one when a person does it willingly; then, too, may the reward of a good work be hoped for from Him concerning whom it is written, He shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27
This was written by St. Augustine to refute the misrepresentation of his apologetic against Pelagius who would deny God’s sovereignly determined requirement of man in the process of receiving Him or rejecting Him…if it were every bit all of God irresistibly, then man has excuse (God made me to do it).
But also see in this that Augustine is not saying man saves Himself or that man can ONLY always choose evil (the Reformed concession)…He is saying when man hears (by word or the Spirit) man must make an initial decision…though without God first man would not on his own respond at all.
In His love
Brother Paul
Last edited:
Paul, though I respect St. Augustine I don't consider him to be above Jesus and I am sure that neither do you. Jesus said John 15:16. What's so difficult to understand in the last passage? If we chose God just because he chose us first (see also 1 John 4:19), then faith is a gift. To me, it is as clear as water.
everything that is good is a gift from God.
Initial belief in God and admitting His conviction of sin and righteousness is true is not the same as being able to say Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God...even Abraham could not have said that...and when one does not believe GOd all the evidence and miracles in the world will not convince these that Christ is this one...surely only the Father reveals that...then there are those children of Belial who KNOW Jesus is the Son of the Living God (like the demons) and they are surely NOT saved...so this is a diversion and does in no way demonstrate your case...
Now see that is a problem I always have when trying to reason with someone whose theology is after Calvins...I never said acholars believe or do not believe "This/That" refers or does not refer to salvation...you had to read that in so you could be justified...I said they interpret the gift of Ephesians 2:8 as salvation...
Can you give me a reference or two (objective Greek Scholars as I provided for you) that discusses this "this/that" issue?
Yes, Christ chose the twelve precisely...please do not go through the whole storehouse of Calvin verses one at a time...I knew them all when you were just a teeny bopper...now put them beside all the verses that oppose this view an find the truth that encompasses them all...you say you do not consider him above Jesus well neither do I but the Apostles who learned from Jesus taught this view to all the early Bishops they trained and taught who passed it on to their disciples...it is you who are putting a mans view above that which they taught (which encompassed both apparent sides of the one truth)...you are a follower of John Calvin (or so you stated in the beginning but then switched/which they all do/ to the post-Dort reformed defense)...
This pattern is always the case...now I totally believe in Biblical predestination and it also says...
Ezekiel 18 - 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father (even Adam), neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Now do not take this as an attempt on my part to undermine the view you were taught (as I was also TAUGHT that view of interpreting the scriptures) just take it as it is the true word of God not a contradiction...now seek the one truth that encompasses both sides of what you feel as opposition (which it is not)
One final witness...
(All Emphasis Added)
JUSTIN MARTYR taught by the Palestinian Bishops c.100-165 A.D.
"But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand.
IRENAEUS of Gaul taught by Polycarp the student of John c.130-200. Against Heresies XXXVII
"This expression, 'How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,' set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will (toward us) is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves . . ."
"If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give counsel to do some things and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free-will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free-will in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God."
ATHENAGORAS of Athens (2nd century) after Paul’s appointed teachers. Embassy for Christians XXIV
"Just as with men who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honor the good or punish the bad; unless vice and virtue were in their own power, and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them, and others faithless), so is it among the angels"
THEOPHILUS of Antioch (2nd century) where Peter was Bishop for two years where he taught Evodius who taught Ignatius. To Autolycus XXVII
"For God made man free, and with power over himself . . . now God vouchsafes to him as a gift through His own philanthropy and pity, when men obey Him. For as man, disobeying, drew death on himself; so, obeying the will of God, he who desires is able to procure for himself life everlasting."
Also TATIAN of Syria (flourished late 2nd century). Address XI
"Why are you 'fated' to grasp at things often, and often to die? Die to the world, repudiating the madness that is in it. Live to God, and by apprehending Him lay aside your old nature. We were not created to die, but we die by our own fault. Our free-will has destroyed us; we who were free have become slaves; we have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God; we ourselves have manifested wickedness; but we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it."
BARDAISAN of Syria c.154-222. Fragments
" 'How is it that God did not so make us that we should not sin and incur condemnation?'
if man had been made so, he would not have belonged to himself but would have been the instrument of him that moved him . . . And how, in that case, would a man differ from a harp, on which another plays; or from a ship, which another guides: where the praise and the blame reside in the hand of the performer or the steersman . . . they being only instruments made for the use of him in whom is the skill? But God, in His benignity, chose not so to make man; but by freedom He exalted him above many of His creatures."
CLEMENT of Alexandria of the Church started by Mark (who was sent by Peter) c.150-215. Stromata Bk ii ch. 4
"But we, who have heard by the Scriptures that self-determining choice and refusal have been given by the Lord to men, rest in the infallible criterion of faith, manifesting a willing spirit, since we have chosen life and believe God through His voice."
Stromata Bk iv ch. 12
"But nothing is without the will of the Lord of the universe. It remains to say that such things happen without the prevention of God; for this alone saves both the providence and the goodness of God. We must not therefore think that He actively produces afflictions (far be it that we should think this!); but we must be persuaded that He does not prevent those that cause them, but overrules for good the crimes of His enemies."
TERTULLIAN of Carthage c.155-225 Against Marcion Book II ch.5I
find, then, that man was by God constituted free, master of his own will and power; indicating the presence of God's image and likeness in him by nothing so well as by this constitution of his nature . . .
-you will find that when He sets before man good and evil, life and death, that the entire course of discipline is arranged in precepts by God's calling men from sin, and threatening and exhorting them; and by this on no other ground than that man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance.
. . . Since therefore, both the goodness and purpose of God are discovered in the gift to man of freedom in his will . . ."
So are you saying all these apostolic men trained by the Apostles or their disciples are incorrect and Calvin was correct? Sorry…no! They know with much more assurance and clarity what the proper teaching was…as they all also teach predestination perhaps it would not hurt to read them as well as the Institutes…(as a witness only)
(All Emphasis Added)
JUSTIN MARTYR taught by the Palestinian Bishops c.100-165 A.D.
"But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand.
IRENAEUS of Gaul taught by Polycarp the student of John c.130-200. Against Heresies XXXVII
"This expression, 'How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,' set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will (toward us) is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves . . ."
"If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give counsel to do some things and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free-will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free-will in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God."
ATHENAGORAS of Athens (2nd century) after Paul’s appointed teachers. Embassy for Christians XXIV
"Just as with men who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honor the good or punish the bad; unless vice and virtue were in their own power, and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them, and others faithless), so is it among the angels"
THEOPHILUS of Antioch (2nd century) where Peter was Bishop for two years where he taught Evodius who taught Ignatius. To Autolycus XXVII
"For God made man free, and with power over himself . . . now God vouchsafes to him as a gift through His own philanthropy and pity, when men obey Him. For as man, disobeying, drew death on himself; so, obeying the will of God, he who desires is able to procure for himself life everlasting."
Also TATIAN of Syria (flourished late 2nd century). Address XI
"Why are you 'fated' to grasp at things often, and often to die? Die to the world, repudiating the madness that is in it. Live to God, and by apprehending Him lay aside your old nature. We were not created to die, but we die by our own fault. Our free-will has destroyed us; we who were free have become slaves; we have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God; we ourselves have manifested wickedness; but we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it."
BARDAISAN of Syria c.154-222. Fragments
" 'How is it that God did not so make us that we should not sin and incur condemnation?'
if man had been made so, he would not have belonged to himself but would have been the instrument of him that moved him . . . And how, in that case, would a man differ from a harp, on which another plays; or from a ship, which another guides: where the praise and the blame reside in the hand of the performer or the steersman . . . they being only instruments made for the use of him in whom is the skill? But God, in His benignity, chose not so to make man; but by freedom He exalted him above many of His creatures."
CLEMENT of Alexandria of the Church started by Mark (who was sent by Peter) c.150-215. Stromata Bk ii ch. 4
"But we, who have heard by the Scriptures that self-determining choice and refusal have been given by the Lord to men, rest in the infallible criterion of faith, manifesting a willing spirit, since we have chosen life and believe God through His voice."
Stromata Bk iv ch. 12
"But nothing is without the will of the Lord of the universe. It remains to say that such things happen without the prevention of God; for this alone saves both the providence and the goodness of God. We must not therefore think that He actively produces afflictions (far be it that we should think this!); but we must be persuaded that He does not prevent those that cause them, but overrules for good the crimes of His enemies."
TERTULLIAN of Carthage c.155-225 Against Marcion Book II ch.5I
find, then, that man was by God constituted free, master of his own will and power; indicating the presence of God's image and likeness in him by nothing so well as by this constitution of his nature . . .
-you will find that when He sets before man good and evil, life and death, that the entire course of discipline is arranged in precepts by God's calling men from sin, and threatening and exhorting them; and by this on no other ground than that man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance.
. . . Since therefore, both the goodness and purpose of God are discovered in the gift to man of freedom in his will . . ."
So are you saying all these apostolic men trained by the Apostles or their disciples are incorrect and Calvin was correct? Sorry…no! They know with much more assurance and clarity what the proper teaching was…as they all also teach predestination perhaps it would not hurt to read them as well as the Institutes…(as a witness only)
MichaelH
Inactive
I don't even know why you ask...... Paul Plants, Apollo waters but God gives the increase. I told you to respond to me as If I knew the other scriptures. Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith, God gives the increase. God reveals things to us.
However, you seemed to miss the part about the tiny small seed God uses that man must make a choice to take heed to and give measure. You ignored all that. You ignored Jesus, when He said........ Take heed what you hear. You have very selective hearing and all scriptures must match perfectly.
I tried.
talk to Paul, He is much less.............. Um, hard core faith oriented about healing and prosperity that I am. Not that Paul does not believe, but from a different perspective than I have...........................Perhaps he can help you.
God's grants us both faith (Matthew 16:16-17) and repentance (2 Timothy 2:25). Hence, the whole regeneration process is God's doing, not ours. We have no part in our salvation.
James White (though a good apologist, I have read much of his stuff) unfortunately is an Evangelical REFORMED pastor/teacher...his bias and intentional misinterpretation (to support his preconceived conclusions) is apparent...not a good choice...try an outside of the Reformed camp Greek scholar...none of my choices were Arminians (not that I am either if you follow my posts)...would a Jehovah's Witness scholar be objective to interpret John 1:1?
Jehovah's witnesses willingly distort the clear meaning of John 1:1. On the contrary, White offers a reasonable and sound interpretation of Ephesians 2:8. You can't say that he is biased just because he is providing you with a valid reason to accept the fact that God has saved us entirely on his own, giving us repentance, faith, courage, and everything we needed in order to overcome spiritual death. Nothing in the regeneration process, not even our willingness to believe, can be attributed to ourselves. That's the beauty of salvation: it depends on God alone and is therefore not liable to be destroyed by men.
No he is not telling the truth about Ephesians 2:8 he is reading it through the rose colored glasses of Reformed theology and bending it to say what they need it to say...(call it my opinion if you wish but I have read many scholars on this subject and ONLY Reformed theologians agree with his take)...and I never said God is not entirely responsible for salvation in fact I have said so two or three different ways... God requiring man's choice does not equal man determining his salvation it equals man responding to God as God has sovereignly required...ONLY GOD saves...He owes man nothing....all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God...even to respond and fall on ones face knowing we deserve condemnation and begging for mercy and forgiveness does not save...it only starts our side of the ball rolling...it is God who gives the increase...also Salvation cannot be DESTROYED by man. the man who rejects will not ever be saved until he repents (so long as he does so this side of glory)...include all the scriptures...
Also James White believes one must be regenerated before one can believe...
Regeneration - paliggenesia - new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
So according to his theology (as well as JCals) one must be born from above (already be one of God's children) to believe/receive
Now look at the scriptures here
John 1:12 to as many as receive Him to them He gives the power to become (to become means they are not yet what comes next) the children of God (these who receive will BECOME born of God)...
It does not say, "to as many as are the children of God, these will receive Him
Next lets look at Acts 2:38 - Repent and be baptized...and you SHALL RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit (the promise of the Father in Luke)...the regeneration/new birth clearly follows
It does not say "all who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit will repent and be baptized...
How about Ephesians 1:13 (the one Reformed theologians always stop before)...In whom you trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
Not before! and this is the conclusion of one of Calvin's most leaned on teachings (Ephesians 1:3-11) which he and all folowers when using Ephesians 1 conveniently leave out
Now Revelations 3:20 Jesus says "Behold I stand at the door and knock (there is the initial move of God) and if any come and open the door (the requirement of man), I will come in and dine with them (here is communion...the presence of God with us)
So see how it does not say, "Behold I stand at the door and knock and those with whom I dine will come and open the door"?
NOw I give not these to you to oppose you but to enlighten you...you are anchoring your faith on only half of the word...one doctrine that encompasses both aspects of the greater truth...there is no one set opposing another and there is no reading yours through mine or reading mine through your view ( especially since I hold neither extreme)...
Also James White believes one must be regenerated before one can believe...
Regeneration - paliggenesia - new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
So according to his theology (as well as JCals) one must be born from above (already be one of God's children) to believe/receive
Now look at the scriptures here
John 1:12 to as many as receive Him to them He gives the power to become (to become means they are not yet what comes next) the children of God (these who receive will BECOME born of God)...
It does not say, "to as many as are the children of God, these will receive Him
Next lets look at Acts 2:38 - Repent and be baptized...and you SHALL RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit (the promise of the Father in Luke)...the regeneration/new birth clearly follows
It does not say "all who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit will repent and be baptized...
How about Ephesians 1:13 (the one Reformed theologians always stop before)...In whom you trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
Not before! and this is the conclusion of one of Calvin's most leaned on teachings (Ephesians 1:3-11) which he and all folowers when using Ephesians 1 conveniently leave out
Now Revelations 3:20 Jesus says "Behold I stand at the door and knock (there is the initial move of God) and if any come and open the door (the requirement of man), I will come in and dine with them (here is communion...the presence of God with us)
So see how it does not say, "Behold I stand at the door and knock and those with whom I dine will come and open the door"?
NOw I give not these to you to oppose you but to enlighten you...you are anchoring your faith on only half of the word...one doctrine that encompasses both aspects of the greater truth...there is no one set opposing another and there is no reading yours through mine or reading mine through your view ( especially since I hold neither extreme)...
You are attacking a straw-man. I pasted White's video to demonstrate that Ephesians 2:8 clearly states that the whole clause ("for by grace you have been saved through faith") is a gift from God, from which we can deduce that faith is a gift from God. This identification of the "this" in Ephesians 2:8 is also upheld by William Lane Craig, who for some reason still believes that faith does not come from God. However, unlike White I do not believe that faith precedes the regeneration process, but that faith IS the regeneration process.
If you feel I am attacking a straw man perhaps you should not have built one for me to attack!
unlike White I do not believe that faith precedes the regeneration process,
On the contrary, White believes regeneration MUST precede belief...he is a Reformed Calvinist (the Post-Dort tradition)...to him opne must be regenerated first (now refer back to the definition of regeneration)...is he correct or not?
unlike White I do not believe that faith precedes the regeneration process,
On the contrary, White believes regeneration MUST precede belief...he is a Reformed Calvinist (the Post-Dort tradition)...to him opne must be regenerated first (now refer back to the definition of regeneration)...is he correct or not?
I am not James White. I believe that faith IS the regeneration process. As far as I can tell, he is wrong in believing that faith is something different than the regeneration process.
The whole purpose of God' salvation plan is to prove that men are totally and absolutely dependent on God. God wants to demonstrate that no good can come out of men. If we say that faith is not a gift of God, we reaffirm that even in the absence of God there is still some good left in us. It is a true blasphemy against God.