Destiny Or Free Will?

[MichaelH]

Michael and Paul, I would like your insight on
Isaiah 45:22
Thanks

Hi Butch, and welcome. Where are you on Gentiles, then? Destined, called and chosen, or called and person must make the decision to respond to calling? Or other?

What is your position on election Moose?
This is what the Thread is about I think.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
(Isa 45:22)

This sounds more to me like a Trinity, Oneness, Modelist, symbolist, type question. The scripture always says what it says, for there is none that is called God that saves. So, 1 God that saves, no other.

Now depends on how technical you want to get into that.

Mind you, I don't support Trinity, Oneness, Modelist, or symbolist. All those doctrines support Monotheism. Even the complexity of the terms man made gets confusing.

 

[SergioL]

To say faith is not the gift mentioned in Ephesians 2:8 is not THE gift being referred to does not equal "in the absence of God there is still some good left in us"...the logic does not follow!

When God saw all that He created He said it was very good. There are many scriptures that affirm it is God who creates the spirit in a person. God does not create the "ruach" to be evil but it becomes evil because it will sin (when we do sin, we separate OURSELVES from God - Isaiah 59:2)...

This position you just expressed now returns from the post-Dort Reformed position to pure Calvinism (another flip flop)...make up your mind! Either man is responsible for his sin (as Deuteronomy 24 and Ezekiel 18 both confirm) or else God is responsible for mans sin (for which there is NO scriptural support)...which is it?

The problem is that you think that I am following the doctrine of Calvin or of some other man, when in fact I am just learning from the Bible. You believe that you have chosen God, unlike the unbelievers who have rejected him. However, God clearly says that He has chosen you. You (all those who believe in what you believe) want to feel that you are better or wiser than the unbelievers, but that's simply not true. God saved us when we were dead in our sins, when we were choosing only bad things and never good things. God has chosen you.

 

[MichaelH]

The problem is that you think that I am following the doctrine of Calvin or of some other man, when in fact I am just learning from the Bible. You believe that you have chosen God, unlike the unbelievers who have rejected him. However, God clearly says that He has chosen you. You (all those who believe in what you believe) want to feel that you are better or wiser than the unbelievers, but that's simply not true. God saved us when we were dead in our sins, when we were choosing only bad things and never good things. God has chosen you.

So your defense is that your just learning?

I guess I wonder how someone I can quote scriptures around can respond to forums and give their ideas based on what they think they know. Do we cut them some slack?

Then again, to not listen and unable to defend their own false doctrine, better than you can defend it...... (I can put up a good argument for Calvinism, better than most) makes you wonder if they want to even learn.

15 years in the Word, day and night.......... Study to show yourself approved unto God...... that is something we do.... (2 Tim 2:15)

Why don't you just learn then, and hear those of us that have been debating these doctrines for years. There is nothing that I would do to steer you into wrong thinking about God.

hating homosexuality is not worse then committing it....... We are told to hate sin..... Why would you even say that?

get a gripe.

 

[Big Moose]

What is your position on election Moose?
This is what the Thread is about I think.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
(Isa 45:22)

This sounds more to me like a Trinity, Oneness, Modelist, symbolist, type question. The scripture always says what it says, for there is none that is called God that saves. So, 1 God that saves, no other.

Now depends on how technical you want to get into that.

Mind you, I don't support Trinity, Oneness, Modelist, or symbolist. All those doctrines support Monotheism. Even the complexity of the terms man made gets confusing.

Now, I am not well versed in historical theology, and I have not studied much on the ism's and ist's, names of belief systems and such. Most of my study time is on the scripture, although I like hearing respectable insights on interpretation. As far as election, I am assuming from what I have read, this means God's election, meaning God choosing us even before we were born. I believe God has a predestined plan for every person, and He calls us, exactly like in Revelation with Jesus at our door and knocking. It is up to us to answer the call, or knock, some of us needing a harder knock than others , and we accept and believe on Jesus as our Savior. We then work on submitting to His will, working out our salvation as Paul wrote in Philippians as God works in us. From all I have learned from scripture, God wants us to choose to submit to Him, not Him forcing us to submit. Just as the master leaves for a time and portions talents to his servants, he comes back to see what they did with them, and rewards them for their efforts. That theme of allowing servants, prodigal son, lost sheep and others to choose to do the right thing cannot be denied.

 

[Big Moose]

The problem is that you think that I am following the doctrine of Calvin or of some other man, when in fact I am just learning from the Bible. You believe that you have chosen God, unlike the unbelievers who have rejected him. However, God clearly says that He has chosen you. You (all those who believe in what you believe) want to feel that you are better or wiser than the unbelievers, but that's simply not true. God saved us when we were dead in our sins, when we were choosing only bad things and never good things. God has chosen you.

Believing God chose you could just as easily be argued that by believing that, you feel you are better than those who are not chosen. God must love you more.
By us choosing to answer the call, this in no way nullifies God choosing us by calling us to repent. Example: Joe wants to be friends with Jack. Jack does not want to be friends with Joe. Are they friends? No. Only if both want friendship can they be considered friends. This is not a perfect illustration, but one nonetheless.

 

[MichaelH]

Now, I am not well versed in historical theology, and I have not studied much on the ism's and ist's, names of belief systems and such. Most of my study time is on the scripture, although I like hearing respectable insights on interpretation. As far as election, I am assuming from what I have read, this means God's election, meaning God choosing us even before we were born. I believe God has a predestined plan for every person, and He calls us, exactly like in Revelation with Jesus at our door and knocking. It is up to us to answer the call, or knock, some of us needing a harder knock than others , and we accept and believe on Jesus as our Savior. We then work on submitting to His will, working out our salvation as Paul wrote in Philippians as God works in us. From all I have learned from scripture, God wants us to choose to submit to Him, not Him forcing us to submit. Just as the master leaves for a time and portions talents to his servants, he comes back to see what they did with them, and rewards them for their efforts. That theme of allowing servants, prodigal son, lost sheep and others to choose to do the right thing cannot be denied.

OK, well you admit your not versed............ I respect that, and not need to beat on someone that is admitting their learning.

There is an election............. God told Jeremiah that I knew you in the Womb, I have called you a Prophet......... God puts the spirit in man.

We are created for his workmanship.............

We are placed in the body of Christ according to his purpose......
\
I just quoted some scriptures.

Often times we don't understand the argument........... in fact we can fight back and fourth on something and come to understand we are not even on the same subject.

Beware of that...

Calvinist believe that God picks who goes to heaven or hell....................................... Its that basic.

They have a doctrine that defends the Sovereignty of God.

Arminist believe that God does not elect, but man has a free will...................... However, God knows what man will choose anyway.

that is how they defended the Sovereignty of God.

Both doctrines are mans doctrines, you don't have to pick either doctrine.

God made every man with a purpose, the question is............... does the man have to seek God and get in the plan, or does God force man into the plan.

It gets pretty convoluted, an d you can be debating with someone and find out both of you are way off track and not even answering the same debate.

pray about it........... go slow........ I have been debating doctrines for years, and the clear one is that Jesus saves.

be blessed.

 

[SergioL]

Believing God chose you could just as easily be argued that by believing that, you feel you are better than those who are not chosen. God must love you more.
By us choosing to answer the call, this in no way nullifies God choosing us by calling us to repent. Example: Joe wants to be friends with Jack. Jack does not want to be friends with Joe. Are they friends? No. Only if both want friendship can they be considered friends. This is not a perfect illustration, but one nonetheless.

Not at all. The Bible states that we have been chosen not for our merits, but for the sole mercy of God. Human friendship is nothing like God's eternal salvation. Take a look at this passage Romans 9:11-18.

Without God we would all be as hard as rocks. He softens some in order to save them.

 

[Big Moose]

What is your position on election Moose?
This is what the Thread is about I think.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
(Isa 45:22)

This sounds more to me like a Trinity, Oneness, Modelist, symbolist, type question. The scripture always says what it says, for there is none that is called God that saves. So, 1 God that saves, no other.

Now depends on how technical you want to get into that.

Mind you, I don't support Trinity, Oneness, Modelist, or symbolist. All those doctrines support Monotheism. Even the complexity of the terms man made gets confusing.

Here is a previous post of mine which says it well.
God does know everything that He has ordained to be knowable. He set up a framework which includes laws which He follows. His framework can also include individuals choices to be unknowable beforehand, for it is His desire that all be saved and He would not create souls predetermined to go against His own desire. That would make God double-minded. That would go against scripture.

Also, God is all powerful, meaning He can do anything through the parameters He sets up. He cannot lie, so His promises must be honored by Him. That is a limit on Himself. So all He would have to do is determine that He wants us to have faith in Him and choose to submit to His will. But He does not want to force that pre-programming on us, so He could make a covenant of free will for humanity. He knows all along that some will choose to accept His calling, and some/most will not. This still allows for prophesy and revelations to remain true.
One third of the angels betrayed God, so I believe He created this universe as a training ground for us to grow and learn and develop faith which would resist the trappings of self importance that free will can fall prey to.

I do support Monotheistic Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are one entity, but three revealings for our benefit. You are not a Monotheist?

 

[Big Moose]

Someone still has to answer how God can create angels, some of whom revolt, and all of creation, all along knowing who will and who won't be saved, then putting in His word
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

all the while knowing this farce of an existence has already been determined. Like I said, God would have to be double minded to desire all to be saved, but create damned souls on purpose. He is all knowing and all powerful, so He could just as easily create the saved souls and loyal angels He wants, and never allowing the pain and torment for those He did not want with Him in heaven anyway, and just not create them.
Only solution I see is that He wants us to be free to choose to accept His calling, His election He designed for us. There is far more joy in a willing response to the love He gives, than a pre-programmed "I love you, too."
I can make my computer do that. Big deal.

 

[SergioL]

Here is a previous post of mine which says it well.
God does know everything that He has ordained to be knowable. He set up a framework which includes laws which He follows. His framework can also include individuals choices to be unknowable beforehand, for it is His desire that all be saved and He would not create souls predetermined to go against His own desire. That would make God double-minded. That would go against scripture.

Also, God is all powerful, meaning He can do anything through the parameters He sets up. He cannot lie, so His promises must be honored by Him. That is a limit on Himself. So all He would have to do is determine that He wants us to have faith in Him and choose to submit to His will. But He does not want to force that pre-programming on us, so He could make a covenant of free will for humanity. He knows all along that some will choose to accept His calling, and some/most will not. This still allows for prophesy and revelations to remain true.
One third of the angels betrayed God, so I believe He created this universe as a training ground for us to grow and learn and develop faith which would resist the trappings of self importance that free will can fall prey to.

I do support Monotheistic Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are one entity, but three revealings for our benefit. You are not a Monotheist?

The problem with your point of view is that the Bible teaches that God knows everything. See Psalms 44:21, Proverbs 15:3, Psalms 139:3-4, 1 John 3:20. So, why did God create those whom he knew would reject him? Because he needed to judge them in order to reveal his justice and power to his entire creation. See Romans 9:22-23. So, does God love and want to save those who are destined for destruction? Yes, but he cannot save them because if he saves them his creation will never get to witness God's justice and God's capability to punish evil. The objective of the plan of salvation is to reveal the nature of God (John 17:3) and this can only be done if wee witness the trial the punishment of the enemies of God. Hence, the enemies of God have a purpose in God's plan.

I do believe in the Trinity, of course.

 

[Big Moose]

OK, well you admit your not versed............ I respect that, and not need to beat on someone that is admitting their learning.

There is an election............. God told Jeremiah that I knew you in the Womb, I have called you a Prophet......... God puts the spirit in man.

We are created for his workmanship.............

We are placed in the body of Christ according to his purpose......
\
I just quoted some scriptures.

Often times we don't understand the argument........... in fact we can fight back and fourth on something and come to understand we are not even on the same subject.

Beware of that...

Calvinist believe that God picks who goes to heaven or hell....................................... Its that basic.

They have a doctrine that defends the Sovereignty of God.

Arminist believe that God does not elect, but man has a free will...................... However, God knows what man will choose anyway.

that is how they defended the Sovereignty of God.

Both doctrines are mans doctrines, you don't have to pick either doctrine.

God made every man with a purpose, the question is............... does the man have to seek God and get in the plan, or does God force man into the plan.

It gets pretty convoluted, an d you can be debating with someone and find out both of you are way off track and not even answering the same debate.

pray about it........... go slow........ I have been debating doctrines for years, and the clear one is that Jesus saves.

be blessed.

Thank you for the kindness and advice.
Bless you brother.

 

[SergioL]

Thank you for the kindness and advice.
Bless you brother.

Please read my previous post.

 

[MichaelH]

Here is a previous post of mine which says it well.
God does know everything that He has ordained to be knowable. He set up a framework which includes laws which He follows. His framework can also include individuals choices to be unknowable beforehand, for it is His desire that all be saved and He would not create souls predetermined to go against His own desire. That would make God double-minded. That would go against scripture.

Also, God is all powerful, meaning He can do anything through the parameters He sets up. He cannot lie, so His promises must be honored by Him. That is a limit on Himself. So all He would have to do is determine that He wants us to have faith in Him and choose to submit to His will. But He does not want to force that pre-programming on us, so He could make a covenant of free will for humanity. He knows all along that some will choose to accept His calling, and some/most will not. This still allows for prophesy and revelations to remain true.
One third of the angels betrayed God, so I believe He created this universe as a training ground for us to grow and learn and develop faith which would resist the trappings of self importance that free will can fall prey to.

I do support Monotheistic Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are one entity, but three revealings for our benefit. You are not a Monotheist?

That all sounds good... Man has a choice, I can show many scriptures where God did not know until man made their choice and God responded to those choices.

No, I am not a monotheist.

I am hard core what the scriptures say only, despite what doctrine i want to believe.


There is One Lord God, One Savior......... Scripture says that in the OT, and NT.

The Father saying the sacrifice of his son was well pleaseing to him..................... Only One..............

However......

That does not remove.........

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

There are two, always been two, as Jesus said to the Father, give me the same glory I had with thee before the foundation of the World.

It's man that removed the son and made just one. Jesus has always been, always will and is the I Am, as His father.

He is not 1/3 part of some God system...... (oneness, modelist) He was not Begotten but in flesh only, but has always been the Son of God (trinity 325ad)

Jesus does not share some (god) status with anyone, but given all things and rules all things, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords. For His Father exalted him above himself.

Blessings.

 

[Big Moose]

The problem with your point of view is that the Bible teaches that God knows everything. See Psalms 44:21, Proverbs 15:3, Psalms 139:3-4, 1 John 3:20. So, why does God created those whom he knew would reject him? Because he needed to judge them in order to reveal his justice and power to the entire creation. See Romans 9:22-23. So, does God loves and wants to save those who are destined for destruction? Yes, but he cannot saved them because by doing that his creation would never get to witness his justice and his capability to punish evil. The objective of the plan of salvation is to reveal the nature of God (John 17:3) and this can only be done if we all see the punishment of the enemies of God. Hence, the enemies of God have a purpose in God's plan.

I do believe in the Trinity, of course.

That is a little twisted. You say, "Yes, but he cannot saved them because by doing that his creation would never get to witness his justice and his capability to punish evil."
God cannot save them????? Maybe you misspoke. God is omnipotent. He can save all who believe on Jesus.
Second problem: There is no justice or power shown by creating beings foreknown to become evil, (setting up a straw man this would be), just to have them to judge and punish. What shows power and justice is to create beings who have a free choice to accept your love, or reject it. Then using perfect love to mete out justice on the wicked. Only then are they deserving of the punishment.
"If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you, it is yours.........."

 

[Big Moose]

That all sounds good... Man has a choice, I can show many scriptures where God did not know until man made their choice and God responded to those choices.

No, I am not a monotheist.

I am hard core what the scriptures say only, despite what doctrine i want to believe.


There is One Lord God, One Savior......... Scripture says that in the OT, and NT.

The Father saying the sacrifice of his son was well pleaseing to him..................... Only One..............

However......

That does not remove.........

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

There are two, always been two, as Jesus said to the Father, give me the same glory I had with thee before the foundation of the World.

It's man that removed the son and made just one. Jesus has always been, always will and is the I Am, as His father.

He is not 1/3 part of some God system...... (oneness, modelist) He was not Begotten but in flesh only, but has always been the Son of God (trinity 325ad)

Jesus does not share some (god) status with anyone, but given all things and rules all things, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords. For His Father exalted him above himself.

Blessings.

So you are a dual-theist? Bi-theist? I'm confused. Are you saying you believe the Father and the Son are both separate Gods? Are they equal in power? Or are you saying there is one God, which I thought was monotheism, but two revealings?

 

[SergioL]

That is a little twisted. You say, "Yes, but he cannot saved them because by doing that his creation would never get to witness his justice and his capability to punish evil."
God cannot save them????? Maybe you misspoke. God is omnipotent. He can save all who believe on Jesus.
Second problem: There is no justice or power shown by creating beings foreknown to become evil, (setting up a straw man this would be), just to have them to judge and punish. What shows power and justice is to create beings who have a free choice to accept your love, or reject it. Then using perfect love to mete out justice on the wicked. Only then are they deserving of the punishment.
"If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you, it is yours.........."

No, it is not twisted at all. God can save Satan if he wants to, but then how would we witness God's power to punish the wicked? God is not limited. Our almighty God has simply taken a decision. I think you are very wrong when you say that God has limited his power by taking a decision. Taking decisions is not the same as being limited. You have to understand that. God takes a lot of decisions, but he never ceases to be omnipotent.

If God creates a world in which all men follow him and accept his will, how would God show his power to punish evil? Moreover, how would God show his mercy if nobody has ever sinned?

 

[Mitspa]

It's a non sequitur.

That's just a rejection of the clear reading. Your absolutely wrong !

 

[MichaelH]

So you are a dual-theist? Bi-theist? I'm confused. Are you saying you believe the Father and the Son are both separate Gods? Are they equal in power? Or are you saying there is one God, which I thought was monotheism, but two revealings?

One God is Monotheism.
The doctrine of Oneness, symbolism, and modelism, was made to support a one God theory.

The original Trinity doctrine (325 ad) Sort of supported it........... it said Jesus is co-equal with the Father made of the same "God Substance" Whatever this new God substance was, who knows. They did not explain it, or included the later added Holy Spirit to that Substance in the first Trinity Doctrine.

I just quoted scripture, and if you use the Word God as the bible used it, then it becomes clear.

However, it's a bit deep, because most believe just what others have said, not what scriptures actually say.
There is also many variations of this Monotheism doctrine that got mixed with the original. Oneness was invented in 1914. It says there is one God, that manifest in 3 different personalities. Trinity states there is 3, that are of the same substance, and are the Godhead (Later also added)

1 in 3........... 3 In 1.

This website supports oneness, not Trinity in it's statement of faith...... Though I asked, they are just as clueless also, trying to incorporate the different beliefs with the statement.

Most are modelist anyway...... they think they are trinity, but really are mixing trinity with oneness, hence the term modelist.

A modelist attempts to show Trinity in scriptures, and you can't without coming off into the land of Oneness which split the AOG church. Trinity never attempted to prove itself in scripture, but said it was a mystery of Christian faith........ A Mystery, so case closed.

Be blessed.

 

[Brother Paul]

The problem is that you think that I am following the doctrine of Calvin or of some other man, when in fact I am just learning from the Bible. You believe that you have chosen God, unlike the unbelievers who have rejected him. However, God clearly says that He has chosen you. You (all those who believe in what you believe) want to feel that you are better or wiser than the unbelievers, but that's simply not true. God saved us when we were dead in our sins, when we were choosing only bad things and never good things. God has chosen you.

You are so confused! Of course God chose you and me...that does not negate the responsibility on our part to accept/receive/believe...that confirms it. It proves you will but does not CAUSE YOU to. We do not determine our salvation, I have already explained that from scripture AND demonstrated what the Apostles taught that these things mean to those they anointed and empowered to teach. How can you imagine that EVERY SINGLE leader of the 1st churches were in error and some persons theology never before known or believed, many centuries later, is correct. You are saying all Christendom for 1500 years was wrong...how vain is that...it is the same conclusion I recieve from JWs, SDAs, and other groups...the whole church was in error until their view came along!!! Pishtosh!

So when you say you do not follow a man but only the Bible, you are deceived, because by the Bible alone (but taken as a whole, which includes all the scriptures related to this) you cannot come to he conclusion you have reached. There are far too many passages of scripture that negate the extremeness of this view (just Augustine alone points to over 20...).

To deny they are equally THE truth is either beguilement or indoctrination but not objective reasoning guided by the Spirit because ALL the scriptures are given by God's in-breathing...no set of scriptures OPPOSES another...they all are part of the one truth God is enlightening us to....

You (all those who believe in what you believe) want to feel that you are better or wiser than the unbelievers

What a terrible false accusation against a brother. I never implied any such thing! Through Jesus Christ ALL have an opportunity to be saved (but all will not do what God has asked) not just those HE MADE to believe (regeneration does not precede the ability to believe). Salvation and judgment are involved with the participation of man's willful choice, not CAUSED by it (it is required according to His sovereign plan that it be so, because He gave them dominion over all that is on the earth).

God always initiates (Augustine called it prevenient grace but the scriptures I gave demonstrate it clearly...God spoke, directing Cain to do it right warning him of the consequence if he did not...but He was not going to violate His own promise to make Cain do it...). We do not merit or deserve BECAUSE we believe, we only have realized what God said was true and yielded, submitted, KNOWING we are condemnable and powerless to obtain it, because we RECOGNIZE, following His enlightenment, that we are worthy of condemnation...

The unyielding, who will not give up, surrender, are refusing to, and asserting their own rebellious lordship, are just like the devil. Wake up...even the concept "to REBEL", implies they do not have to, but have made this stand. We KNOW we are no better than disbelievers and worthy of nothing better, but when He spoke to us (through the word or the Spirit) we wanted His offer in Christ, that's why we surrendered. God did not make us to surrender....the whole concept is a non-sequitur. To accept, to receive, to submit, to turn, etc., by nature of their meaning all speak of the option "not to" being equally available.

What say ye about Cain? If he had done what God (who he knew and believed in and audibly heard from) told him would remedy the problem, don't you think God would have kept His word to Cain? Of course He would have (God is not a man that He should lie) And if Cain COULD NOT do otherwise, would this not make God's offer a ruse, a false hope, a lie (God forbid)....Cain did not, and God foreknew He would not, but it is not because he could not...likewise Abraham was offering his son not because God irresistibly compelled him to....otherwise His comment that now that He had seen that Abraham would even not hold back his son, then He knew Abraham really trusted Him, would make no sense at all and incite confusion (and God is NOT the author of confusion)...

Of course God was telling the truth to Cain and of course Cain could have turned and done it right...God wills (prefers) all would come to repentance (but all will not)...but God gave man the dominion ("radah" to have rule over)...radah means God's plan was for man to have the power to rule on the earth (make the decisions...) and preferred he do it right, and even intervened (by grace) warning him, but once God has spoken, it was up to the man.

There are so many examples all through the scriptures...so do not tell me you were not taught or brought up in your theology because that would not be true (I know because I was you).

In His love

brother Paul

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch, and welcome. Where are you on Gentiles, then? Destined, called and chosen, or called and person must make the decision to respond to calling? Or other?

Thanks! I believe everyone has to choose. God chose the Jews as a covenant people, however, not every Jew remained in the covenant. Some sought foreign Gods others were cut off from among the people. So, as a people they were chosen yet, their participation in the covenant was determined by each person. I believe it's the same with new covenant, God has chosen to save those who believe, whether or not one participates in the covenant is base on their decision to believe or not.