Predestination a biblical perspective

[Butch5]

Any Jew who did not keep the law was cast out. Failure to keep it sometimes even meant death. And as Paul explained it, the law was a "schoolmaster" or custodian whose purpose was to bring the nation to the point where their Messiah could come, and though the law could never save anyone, they were required to keep it nonetheless.

But when you keep equating salvation before Jesus with salvation after, you've been arguing is that people could be saved by faith in Jesus' resurrection before it even happened. Thus there are two "gospel" messages: one of the kingdom promised to the nation of Israel, and the other of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. The former was before Jesus rose again; the latter was after. These cannot be mixed, as they are two different covenants.

It seems to me that you are arguing against what you assume I mean. You said,

But when you keep equating salvation before Jesus with salvation after, you've been arguing is that people could be saved by faith in Jesus' resurrection before it even happened.

Please show me where I have made this argument. I said salvation has always been through faith, thorough an obedient, loving faithful relationship with God. Where in that statement do you see the statement you made. Everyone in the OT was saved through faith. Hebrews chapter 11 is full of OT saints who "by faith" were obedient and now await the promises. Jesus preached the Gospel of the kingdom and the 12 apostles preached the Gospel of the kingdom, and Paul preached the Gospel of the kingdom, One Gospel, not two. Paul said he preached nothing other than what the prophets and Moses said would come.

KJV Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: (Act 26:22 KJV)

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.
8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. (Act 19:4-8 KJV)

25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. (Act 20:25 KJV)

17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
18 Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me.
19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.
20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
(Act 28:17-23 KJV)

30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
(Act 28:30-31 KJV)

Eph. 2:8-9 says point blank that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works. Paul explained also that grace is not wages, and faith is not work. Abraham was considered righteous because he believed God, nothing else.

Earlier in the thread you were commenting on context. If you look at this passage in context you'll see Paul is referring to the works of the Mosaic Law.

But, even so, this doesn't prove faith alone.

 

[Relentless]

Please show me where I have made this argument. I said salvation has always been through faith, thorough an obedient, loving faithful relationship with God. Where in that statement do you see the statement you made. Everyone in the OT was saved through faith. Hebrews chapter 11 is full of OT saints who "by faith" were obedient and now await the promises. Jesus preached the Gospel of the kingdom and the 12 apostles preached the Gospel of the kingdom, and Paul preached the Gospel of the kingdom, One Gospel, not two. Paul said he preached nothing other than what the prophets and Moses said would come.

Have you not repeatedly stated that what Jesus said before the cross applies after? Haven't you been objecting all this time to my argument that Jesus came to the nation of Israel and much of what he said was specifically for them? Isn't this what you've been opposing all this time? I suppose I could go back and wade through all your posts and get links and quotes, but first I'd like you to clarify what exactly you've been objecting to in anything I've said, if in fact you haven't been saying salvation is the same for both. In fact, you say that very thing here: that salvation was always by faith but not faith alone. If that isn't what you mean, then why do you keep saying it? I'm completely at a loss to figure out what you're trying to say at this point.

Also, Jesus did in fact preach a gospel of the kingdom, since he had not yet risen from the dead. It was impossible for him to have preached the gospel message of his resurrection. The Jews rejected their King, and so the gospel of the kingdom has been put on hold until the church age is over and God turns his attention back to Israel. I've said this before. If you're saying Paul preached something other than the good news that Jesus rose from the dead, then we're not reading the same New Testament.

As for the verses you listed, Paul was speaking to Jews about the Messiah they had rejected, which requires citation of everything in their scriptures that predicted his coming. Did Paul speak these things about the kingdom of God to the Greeks at Mars Hill? No, he did not. Same issue with Peter's speech on Pentecost: he was speaking to Jews about their rejection of their Messiah. But what was the saving Gospel even then? That this Jesus proved himself to be the Messiah by rising from the dead. Yet again, when Paul or anyone else went to the Gentiles, they spoke only "of Christ, and him crucified". The fact remains that the gospel Jesus talked about could not possibly have included news of his own resurrection before it happened.

Earlier in the thread you were commenting on context. If you look at this passage in context you'll see Paul is referring to the works of the Mosaic Law.

No, Paul was referring to "works", as in actions or good deeds. Look at how that chapter begins: "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." That's not talking about the laws of Moses.

But, even so, this doesn't prove faith alone.

Yes, it does. Faith is not a work, a gift is not a wage. You cannot earn a gift.

 

[calvin]

Learn something here..................

Exo 3:19 kjva And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

How is God sure? Because God knows Pharoah. God is pretty sure before the whole thing starts that it's going to take a strong hand against Pharoah.

Why? Because Pharoah is already in a bad heart condition before the thing even starts.

Exo 3:20 kjva And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

God said, once I beat on Pharoah a bit, He will let you go.

This is before any hearts where so called hardened.

Exo 4:8-9 kjva 8 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign. 9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land.

God said, if they don't believe your voice on the first sign, they will hearken after the next sign............... That should fix it, because God knows Pharoah.

God said they will listen after the second sign................ BUT

If Pharoah does not, The first Two signs...... Then we turn Water to blood.

God said they would believe.......... but just in case, we go with the Blood trick. Why? Because God is being kind to Pharoah, knows he is hardened, and figures the first sign should be enough.

Now, a whole bunch of stuff went down with bricks and Pharoah from this point. God is going by knowing Pharoah but later actions show God that Pharoah would most likely not listen to a few signs.

You also don't understand tenses in Hebrew. Hebrew did not have a passive tense that translated well into English.

Exo 7:13 YLT and the heart of Pharaoh is strong, and he hath not hearkened unto them, as Jehovah hath spoken.

Exo 7:13 kjva And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Young fixed these issues in lots of places............ And He hardened is not in the Hebrew, we can thank the translators for that.

How was Pharoah's heart hardened? What did God do?

God helps out Pharoah's own magic users.

Exo 7:22 kjv+ And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exo 8:15 kjva But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Pharoah is doing this to himself. God was willing to just give one sign, and if that did not work then another sign.

Exo 8:32 kjva And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Here it is again............ It is Pharoah hardening his own heart........by what He is seeing.

That's 3 times now............ Pharoah does it to himself.

Exo 9:11-12 kjva 11 And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians. 12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

How God do this? through another sign.

Exo 9:34 kjva And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

God 2 with signs Pharoah believed.
Pharoah 4 on his own.

God rally's in though with more signs

Rom 9:22 kjva What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

So, it was not God. God was willing to just do one sign, and two if needed. It was Pharoah first.
That is Scripture ONLY.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 6:16 kjva Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

So, if you don't obey the Lord Jesus as Head of the Church, do what He says do. Then you say He is still Lord over your life?

You can have two masters.......... That is what your saying.

Luk 6:46-47 kjva 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

Jesus said, Why are you calling me Lord, but you don't do what I say.

Jesus must also be wrong.............. according to Calvin.

Perhaps it is you need to learn something here.
40 Posts have been placed in this thread since I retired for the night.
Your post is way too long to warrant reading given all the circumstances.
I did say that I was not going to cut and paste the whole of exodus.
young's literal translation...(a classic misnomer) is as wrong as the niv in places I have compared and therefore not to be afforded the status of Scripture. It is a paraphrase..a poor one at that.
Even the Septuagint has this to say in connection with pharaoh's heart being hardened::
Exo 14:4 And I will harden the heart of Pharao, and he shall pursue after them; and I will be glorified in Pharao, and in all his host, and all the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord. And they did so....Septuagint.
Are you saying that your knowledge of Hebrew is greater that that possessed by the panel of (70+), whose native tongue was Hebrew?
As for you or anyone making the Lord Lord; that is as absurd as it reads.
Now then if the Lord is not Lord of a non believers life, then who is?
You used :
Luk 6:46 "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?
It is interesting to note that Jesus only refers to their disobedience...I doesn't say 'why call me lord when you never even made me Lord'?
You see His Lordship is never in question.
Thanks for making my point.

 

[Leemg]

You've simply made a claim here. If the believe is indwelt with the Spirit permanently, then wherever the believer goes the Spirit must be there. That's just logical. The logical conclusion from this is that if the believer commits adultery the Spirit is there. It's not about the sinner having the Spirit, it's about the location of the Spirit. That is what I asked you to address.

Nowhere did I say the Spirit is "only." What I said was that I believe Christians have misunderstood this concept of indwelling. I submit that Paul's use of the plural "you" supports an among you interpretation.

1 Corinthians 6:15
Don't you know that your bodies are a part of Christ's body? So should I take a part of Christ's body and make it part of a prostitute? Absolutely not!

The body, soul and spirit of a son of God are one with Christ. Just as the Spirit, Father and Word are One. When the New Creature sins, Christ is right there with you. Answer is yes the Spirit is there.

 

[calvin]

Learn something here..................
<<Snip>>

Yes, I bid you learn something of importance.
Act 2:5. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language.

It is sheerest folly to argue that because Peter will go on to address only these devout men in Jerusalem, and not the Eskimos, that his message does not apply to all men everywhere in every time from then onwards. Now read on...till you come to:::

Act 2:36. Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

It is God who made (past tense) Jesus Lord, not sinful men. Read on...

Act 2:37. Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38. And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

Can you show me where Peter suggests that those of his audience need to make Jesus Lord? ..................................................................................................................................................................
Sorry, times up.
We need to abandon this fruitless discussion because it is way off topic.

 

[Butch5]

God cannot be dissected in such a manner. There is only one God. The three Persons share a single will, or else they'd be three gods. So nice try making the omnipresence of God only apply to one part. And besides, that Psalm begins with this: "Where can I go from your Spirit?" Now who is trying to divert from the issue at hand?

I haven't diverted anything. I'm not sure what you're getting at when you say dissecting God. The subject is the Spirit, not Father. Regarding what you said about sharing a single will, I suspect that's an opinion. I'm guessing we'll see the Trinity differently. However, I would seem to me that there is more than one will here.

41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. (Luk 22:41-42 KJV)

Regarding Psalm 139, we're discussing the Spirit being in someone permanently, being in the presence of the Spirit and being indwelt with the Spirit seem to me to be two different things. The lost cannot flee the presence of the Father or the Spirit either but I doubt that you would suggest that they are indwelt with the Spirit.

Yes, you were arguing that the Spirit cannot indwell us individually or that would mean participating in our sin. If you didn't intend to make that argument, you really need to find another way to word whatever it is you're trying to say. And again, I've addressed the issue of location. I can't make you see anything.

No, I haven't. You argued for a "Permanent" indwelling of the Spirit. I suggested that Christians have misunderstood this. I don't think my argument was hard to understand as others haven't seemed to have had problems understanding what I'm saying. I think we may be having an issue because I believe you are trying to understand my argument based on what you believe rather than trying to understand my argument based on it's own merits. I could be wrong but that's how it appears to me.

As for Christians allegedly misunderstanding the concept of indwelling, you yourself have done nothing to prove your claim. You have merely asserted that we have it wrong. So until you actually make a scripture-based case for what you're claiming, I have nothing to respond to and nothing to allegedly avoid. What have you given as evidence that we have it wrong?

But I have, Paul uses the the plural "you."

 

[Butch5]

1 Corinthians 6:15
Don't you know that your bodies are a part of Christ's body? So should I take a part of Christ's body and make it part of a prostitute? Absolutely not!

The body, soul and spirit of a son of God are one with Christ. Just as the Spirit, Father and Word are One. When the New Creature sins, Christ is right there with you. Answer is yes the Spirit is there.

Isn't, one with Christ a metaphor for unity?

 

[Butch5]

Butch, that council is the Roman Cathloic Church. At the end of the "Original" Trinity doctrine it states something about being part of the Cathlic Church.

Granted, it may not resemble what Rome is today but that is where the doctrine came from, I check it out.

Rome is the oldest orginzed church dating back just a hundred or so years after John Finished Revelation.

It was in 381 ad that things started to get a bit messed up.

In the early 1600's though, Rome let a bunch of junk in, including the Pope accepting the new and revised understanding of the Trinity Doctrine by which the Western cilivazation bought, hook line and sinker. Athanasius of Alexandria claimed to have coughed this one up and Pope Julius made it offical.

We had Calvin with his election doctrine at this time, and Ersimus having to include the new version of John for his 3rd edition Greek.

That's when things got messed up.

As you know, these things have been carried over into most churches today.

In the beginning the catholic church .didn't mean the Roman Catholic church, it meant the universal church. The Roman Catholic church didn't come along until some time later. It may have been as early as 400 AD. because we see in the Nicene Creed revision in 381, that the original teaching on the Trinity was still believed. However, by the time of Augustine we see this new teaching in the Anthanasian Creed. This creed was not written by Anthanasias of Alexandria, he was alive at the first Nicene Council in 325 AD. I do agree with you that there is quite a bit of error that has entered into the church. It's discouraging to see so many Christians defending error rather than considering the doctrines they hold. I used to hold most of the doctrines in the modern church but got tired of all of the contradictions that a believer is supposed to accept. I began a search for the truth of Scripture and subjected every doctrine to Scripture. Those that couldn't stand in the light of Scripture got tossed, no matter how much they are cherished by the church. Going back and studying the early Christians was very enlightening.

 

[Relentless]

I haven't diverted anything. I'm not sure what you're getting at when you say dissecting God. The subject is the Spirit, not Father. Regarding what you said about sharing a single will, I suspect that's an opinion. I'm guessing we'll see the Trinity differently. However, I would seem to me that there is more than one will here.

41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. (Luk 22:41-42 KJV)

Regarding Psalm 139, we're discussing the Spirit being in someone permanently, being in the presence of the Spirit and being indwelt with the Spirit seem to me to be two different things. The lost cannot flee the presence of the Father or the Spirit either but I doubt that you would suggest that they are indwelt with the Spirit.

All any of us has is our opinions of what the text means.

I know what the subject is. I also know that you argued that the Spirit isn't omnipresent, only the Father, even though I quoted a Psalm that says there is no place anyone can go to get away from the Spirit. What I mean by dissecting God is by saying that the Spirit is somehow so detached from the Father that the Spirit is not as omnipresent as the Father... or the Father as the Spirit.

As for more than one will, you're forgetting the "hypostatic union", the dual nature of the incarnate Christ. Jesus has always been God and always will be God, but at a point in time he also became human. This is the only "other" will related to the Godhead.

Back to the Spirit indwelling people permanently: Always in the NT it speaks of us having the Spirit. 1 Cor. 6:19 states that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit; Eph. 1:13-14 says we were sealed, when we accepted the truth; Rom. 8:9 says that if we don't have the Spirit we do not belong to God; Rom. 8:11 says the Spirit lives in us; and so on. List: http://www.bible-knowledge.com/baptized-with-the-holy-spirit-at-salvation/

So clearly the Spirit is permanently in the heart of every individual believer, from the moment of faith. What you had been saying about the presence of the Spirit is that the Spirit cannot be with or in us all the time since we sin. And I've been saying that there is no escaping the presence of the Spirit, even if you don't believe we are permanently indwelt by it. That was my reason for pointing that out. So again, the argument that the Spirit cannot permanently indwell us because of our sin is refuted on the basis that no one is away from the presence of the Spirit anyway. So the indwelling of the Spirit in the believer is not prevented by our being sinners. Thus you have no basis for saying it's impossible that we can be permanently indwelt. No, I'm not saying the wicked are indwelt, but only that the indwelt believer is no more or less in the constant presence of the Spirit than anyone else. And the fact that even the wicked cannot escape that presence should be a good indication that there is indeed something different about it for the believer.

No, I haven't. You argued for a "Permanent" indwelling of the Spirit. I suggested that Christians have misunderstood this. I don't think my argument was hard to understand as others haven't seemed to have had problems understanding what I'm saying. I think we may be having an issue because I believe you are trying to understand my argument based on what you believe rather than trying to understand my argument based on it's own merits. I could be wrong but that's how it appears to me.

I understand that you think Christians have misunderstood the indwelling of the Spirit, but you have yet to say exactly how we misunderstand it. And I am not aware of anyone else participating to anywhere near the same extent in this conversation, so appealing to popularity here isn't helping your case, and is in fact a fallacy. And I could accuse you of the same thing you accuse me: that you cannot understand my argument because you want to believe something else and not consider my argument on its own merits. But trying to guess what each other's motives or weaknesses are isn't helping either.

But I have, Paul uses the the plural "you."

The plural "you" is a point? Can't Paul speak of a group of individuals? If I say, "You all have a nice day", does that mean the group of people can only have a nice day as a group? Of course not.

 

[By Faith]

God cannot be dissected in such a manner. There is only one God. The three Persons share a single will, or else they'd be three gods.

Your doing good Reading all the post, even Calvin who had not taken the time to read mine.

Watch getting into the "Trinity" doctrine though. Know your stuff. Butch believes in the Real and first "Trinity" doctrine. 200 some years later some guy changed it and the pope approved it.
In the 1912 Encylopedia Cathloic, the Church statess that the current version of the Trinity is not found anywhere in scriptures.

The folks that made the doctrine stated that.

However, the 325 ad first and original version I can somewhat back by scriptures. There are trinity purist who hate the modern versions. (Except for the part of being Roman Cathloic)

Also watch words that are not in Scripture..... God is omnipresent is not found anywhere in scripture, nor is there any Hebrew or Greek Word that means that.

Instead we find that God will "Search" out. I posted some of those scriptures already. God is on his throne, it's His Spirit here on earth and lots of angels. The Holy Spirit is our direct line to God 24/7. Not so much for folks in the OT.

The Original trinity doctrine stated......... Jesus is God of God, Not created but begotten of the Father before the foundation of the World (That part is wrong, He was only begotten through Mary by the spoken word)

The Doctrine goes on to say He is of the same Essence (Substance) as the Father, being God just like His Father.

The Church made up this God substance.

The Holy Spirit is not in the Original Trinity Doctrine, Monotheism did not show up until the 1600's. Trinity never believed there was just ONE GOD, but Two who are equal and God of God.

381ad the Doctrine was revised to included the Holy Spirit.

1625.......... The whole doctrine was changed and adopted by Rome.

1914 Oneness was invented.
1928 Oneness split the Assymblies of God church into Apostolic Oneness. It was a major mess and break up by the anti-Trinitarians.

2015............. many folks mix oneness and Trinity, not knowing what the Original said. The term for this is Modalism.

Just a heads up.

Butch by admission holds on to a very old Cathloic doctrine that came from the same folks that gave us Trinity. I don't know how to get around that, but I am believing for you.

 

[Relentless]

Your doing good Reading all the post, even Calvin who had not taken the time to read mine.

Watch getting into the "Trinity" doctrine though. Know your stuff. Butch believes in the Real and first "Trinity" doctrine. 200 some years later some guy changed it and the pope approved it.
In the 1912 Encylopedia Cathloic, the Church statess that the current version of the Trinity is not found anywhere in scriptures.

The folks that made the doctrine stated that.

However, the 325 ad first and original version I can somewhat back by scriptures. There are trinity purist who hate the modern versions. (Except for the part of being Roman Cathloic)

Also watch words that are not in Scripture..... God is omnipresent is not found anywhere in scripture, nor is there any Hebrew or Greek Word that means that.

Instead we find that God will "Search" out. I posted some of those scriptures already. God is on his throne, it's His Spirit here on earth and lots of angels. The Holy Spirit is our direct line to God 24/7. Not so much for folks in the OT.

The Original trinity doctrine stated......... Jesus is God of God, Not created but begotten of the Father before the foundation of the World (That part is wrong, He was only begotten through Mary by the spoken word)

The Doctrine goes on to say He is of the same Essence (Substance) as the Father, being God just like His Father.

The Church made up this God substance.

The Holy Spirit is not in the Original Trinity Doctrine, Monotheism did not show up until the 1600's. Trinity never believed there was just ONE GOD, but Two who are equal and God of God.

381ad the Doctrine was revised to included the Holy Spirit.

1625.......... The whole doctrine was changed and adopted by Rome.

1914 Oneness was invented.
1928 Oneness split the Assymblies of God church into Apostolic Oneness. It was a major mess and break up by the anti-Trinitarians.

2015............. many folks mix oneness and Trinity, not knowing what the Original said. The term for this is Modalism.

Just a heads up.

Butch by admission holds on to a very old Cathloic doctrine that came from the same folks that gave us Trinity. I don't know how to get around that, but I am believing for you.

Thanks, ByFaith.

When it comes to any appeal to church "fathers", history, or councils, I only take them as opinions to consider. So I really don't care what arguments other people might make on that basis. What matters to me is whether a viewpoint can be supported with scripture. I wrote some thoughts about the Trinity here: http://www.fether.net/index.php?page=refuting-false-teachings-about-the-trinity/

As for the omnipresence of God, it is another term that simply describes a viewpoint, just like "trinity" or "second coming". God does indeed "search out", but this is most often in regards to thoughts and intentions. I can't imagine anything or anyone escaping God's notice, since he knows when a sparrow falls to the ground and has even counted the number of hairs on our heads.

But I think I've exhausted all the patience I could muster for this thread anyway, seeing that it seems to just be going in circles now. I'll have to see if I can think of any way to get this off the merry-go-round.

 

[Leemg]

Isn't, one with Christ a metaphor for unity?

We are one with the Lord. That is for every true born again of the Spirit of God believer. We are recreated complete in Christ and one with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

John 17:11

"I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.

John 17:22

"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

 

[By Faith]

Thanks, ByFaith.

When it comes to any appeal to church "fathers", history, or councils, I only take them as opinions to consider. So I really don't care what arguments other people might make on that basis. What matters to me is whether a viewpoint can be supported with scripture. I wrote some thoughts about the Trinity here: http://www.fether.net/index.php?page=refuting-false-teachings-about-the-trinity/

As for the omnipresence of God, it is another term that simply describes a viewpoint, just like "trinity" or "second coming". God does indeed "search out", but this is most often in regards to thoughts and intentions. I can't imagine anything or anyone escaping God's notice, since he knows when a sparrow falls to the ground and has even counted the number of hairs on our heads.

But I think I've exhausted all the patience I could muster for this thread anyway, seeing that it seems to just be going in circles now. I'll have to see if I can think of any way to get this off the merry-go-round.

Ok, I read that link you gave. Thank you.

You mixed oneness though in it. I suspect only hard core trinitarians would notice, and certainly the Oneness group who hold their doctrine tight would definitly notice it.

I don't understand the need to protect monotheism though. The Father Called Jesus God.

I can't find modern trinity concepts or oneness in scriptures.

It's Oneness that Makes Jesus the "Word" part of God. 1 is 3. They take John and skip the part on how the Word was made flesh, begotten, just as God spoke, the word came to pass.

Also everything created "BY" him............ The word "by" is the Greek "di" meaning all things were created through and because of.
In Hebrews we see God made the worlds for the son, giving glory to the Son before the foundation of the World (John 17)

I count two, I never had a Trinity concept and most definitly not a oneness concept.

Be blessed.

 

[Relentless]

Ok, I read that link you gave. Thank you.

You mixed oneness though in it. I suspect only hard core trinitarians would notice, and certainly the Oneness group who hold their doctrine tight would definitly notice it.

I don't understand the need to protect monotheism though. The Father Called Jesus God.

I can't find modern trinity concepts or oneness in scriptures.

It's Oneness that Makes Jesus the "Word" part of God. 1 is 3. They take John and skip the part on how the Word was made flesh, begotten, just as God spoke, the word came to pass.

Also everything created "BY" him............ The word "by" is the Greek "di" meaning all things were created through and because of.
In Hebrews we see God made the worlds for the son, giving glory to the Son before the foundation of the World (John 17)

I count two, I never had a Trinity concept and most definitly not a oneness concept.

Be blessed.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "mixed oneness"? Also I'm not sure what you're saying about "the Father called Jesus God". I certainly don't subscribe to "oneness" as I understand it.

Re. everything being created by him, "dia" means "by, through, during" with the genitive case, and "because of, on account of" with the accusative case. In Col. 1:16b it has the genitive case, so it does indeed mean that Jesus was the one who did the creating. It was all done both by him and for him. The following verse adds that he holds everything together.

Anyway, I do believe that God is a Trinity, and I don't accept Oneness theology.

 

[CCW95A]

Yes, your seeing some of it. Jesus is the light of man, from the very start. Before the World was made.

Yet you still can't have God knowing who gets saved and not gets saved without lots of scriptural issues.

So it has to be something else when Paul said he has choosen us before the foundation of the World to be in Christ.

Can't be God's foreknowledge. You did touch on it though.

A few scriptures out of 50 or more even.
(What did God say about what He knows?)

1Ch 28:9 kjva And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

The Lord has to search............ Understands all hearts.

Psa 44:21 kjva Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

Jer 17:10 kjva I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

2Ch 16:9 kjva For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

If God knows before the foundation of the World who will follow him, then God must have wasted a whole lot of time searching and trying hearts for things He already knew.

God also must have forgotten where these folks are at on the Earth because He has to go looking for them again.

So this foreknowledge of who would choose Him before the foundation of the World can't be true. Unless God just forgets and gets confused, which I don't think is the case.

It's in scripture...... What does Paul mean we were predestined to be in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the World?

What was the original plan? You touched on it, but we can't have a doctrine with contradicting scriptures............ I am just getting started, but I hope you see it before I go through all 50+ scriptures.

God would not search a blessed thing for something He already knew, God is not that stupid.

Pretend I am like a student asking these question........what would you tell me?

Jer 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

(The Lord declares the end from the beginning. There is nothing he does not know, weather in this time or any time for he is the alpha, and omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last all at the same time. God knows and declares every thing that will happen before it happens.)

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

(God knoweth ALL things)

Psa 44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

Psa 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

(Nobody can change what the Lord already knows will happen)

 

[calvin]

The original poster has not taken interest in their own thread. So things branch out if there is no direction given.

GBzone is currently not with us to give direction

 

[By Faith]

Jer 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

(The Lord declares the end from the beginning. There is nothing he does not know, weather in this time or any time for he is the alpha, and omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last all at the same time. God knows and declares every thing that will happen before it happens.)

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

(God knoweth ALL things)

Psa 44:21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

Psa 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

(Nobody can change what the Lord already knows will happen)

You confused me............

God declares............ God knows..........

If you were a calvinist, I wish you would have just said so.

God knows all things about the heart......... The topic of the Greek. It's not "God Knows all things" He knows all things about the heart.


God declared the end from the Beginning........... His counsol stands........
That is not foreknolwedge, that is God's Word not returning void.

God knows all things about the heart........Already covered.

God speaks, it happens............... Already covered.

God's understanding is infinite.......... No doubt in my mind.

You still have no scripture God knows if a man will be saved or not.
Unless your saying God declares every little thing about every single person.

That makes you a calvinist. That is not foreknowledge, that is causing.

What your not looking at is the scriptures we already covered. The heart of man............

That is what God knows, and hearts can change.

IN fact, God does not declare every single thing as in causing. Lots of Things God is not even involved in.

Gen 18:20-21 kjva 20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Scripture 4 out of 50+

God is telling us how he knows something. He tells us what he does when He hears cry's.......... (Study out cry's) He goes down to look.
He did the same with the tower of Bable........ He went down to look.

Now why would God go down to look? If he already delcared all things?

I am just getting started...... Why does someone you claim to declare all things........ (Cause) need to go down and look?

God can find anything out in seconds, why does he have to find out about Sodom and see if the cry matches the sin?

God does not operate on foreknowledge or election. He is Alpha and omega but that don't tell us anything but he started it all, and He will wrap everything up.

Anyway, Why does God have to go down to look at Sodom and then says He will know.

Do we explain this away, or do we take heed to what God is telling us about how things work?

 

[By Faith]

GBzone is currently not with us to give direction

Ah, he was the one that was given that "break" I got it, thanx.

 

[By Faith]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "mixed oneness"? Also I'm not sure what you're saying about "the Father called Jesus God". I certainly don't subscribe to "oneness" as I understand it.

Re. everything being created by him, "dia" means "by, through, during" with the genitive case, and "because of, on account of" with the accusative case. In Col. 1:16b it has the genitive case, so it does indeed mean that Jesus was the one who did the creating. It was all done both by him and for him. The following verse adds that he holds everything together.

Anyway, I do believe that God is a Trinity, and I don't accept Oneness theology.

The problem with making Jesus creator is that it's not a trinity belief.

God the father is the first person in the Godhead.
Jesus number 2
Holy Spirit number 3

That is a modalist doctrine.

Jesus is not the Father, and so on but these 3 are One. Each have their own testimony, part, and function in the Godhead.
That is Trinity Doctrine.

Trinity keeps them seperate to avoid scriptural contridictions.

Jesus is not the Creator, but all things made through him and because of him and for him. That is in two places.

We compare:

Heb 1:2 kjva Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 1:8 kjva But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy
kingdom.

The Father made all things for the Son, and beause of the son, Calling His son God and apointed him heir of all things.

Everything on this planet was to be subject to the son of God, predestined before the World was.

Jesus saying.........

Joh 17:5 kjva And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Before the World was, the Son of God was with the Father. The Father made all things to be under and subjected to his son.

That makes 2 of them.

What Trinity does then is add the statement.......... and these 3 are 1.

Cathloics call that part of it the mystery of the Christain faith.
Methodist call it a puzzle.
Southern Baptist call it a mystery the finite mind of man can't understand.

and so on........... how they become ONE is the mystery part of the Trinity doctrine (Modern Version)

This is how trinity explains two thrones...... All scriptural, until it's time to believe in Monotheism.

Once that time comes............ They become one, like Husband and wife is one flesh and a mystery.

Jude makes a startling comment though. It bust any trinity or oneness doctrine apart.

Satan is the one that would like us to erease the son of God. Make them just One God, why not...... No Son.

God had a son, whom was faithful as a man, and whom He appointed heir of all things. The King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, Fully God like his Father and earned every bit of it to not be smashed into a ONE God system.

So while Trinity likes to keep the seperate until it's time to make the ONE GOD and it's a mystery of the Christain faith.

This believer won't buy into the Mystery and say Jesus my Lord, thank you for Bringing me to your father, whom you will confess my name before and his angels.

Don't take my word for it, study it out...... even in Isa they translated it wrong............ It's translated in Hebrew the Father of eternity. They switched it. Jesus is the Father of eternity, eternal life though him.

examine the scripture in 1 John........ these 3 are one........ That came into being during the 1500's. Read about the battle over that one and what Rome was pushing.

Be blessed, always look into things for yourself.

No caps!!!

 

[Relentless]

The problem with making Jesus creator is that it's not a trinity belief.

God the father is the first person in the Godhead.
Jesus number 2
Holy Spirit number 3

That is a modalist doctrine.

Jesus is not the Father, and so on but these 3 are One. Each have their own testimony, part, and function in the Godhead.
That is Trinity Doctrine.

Thanks for clarifying.

But I don't see overlap among the persons as any sort of Modalism. The three are One, so overlap in functions is to be expected. In the document I linked to, I clearly indicate how God is both One and Three, and one section is specifically against Modalism.