Logical ARGUMENT – (1) Defining a word or a name using ROOT WORD/S.

[aha]

Well, I was thinking not a few members starts thread on “Bible Study”, and am very thankful as I can learn a lot from them.

I can’t start a thread on that, since am not a Bible Teacher.

But am thinking if I can post from time to time on topic: “Logical Argument”.

My purpose or intention:

1. well, I just like to start one
2. For my own education as well as hopefully to others who are interested.
3. An opportunity to direct in this thread instead, a clarification or a question on some post that I think is not logical. So as the discussion, additional lengthy pages will be here, instead of in that thread , so as not to "hijack" that thread. And hopefully, since Logic follow some rules, the issue will be discuss here following the rules of logic.

Now, since this is a Christian Forum, one of the first question can be: is there a place for “Argument” in the first place, or “Logic” in Christian forums?

I think yes:

"ARGUMENT" definition no. 1: is simply to reason, a statement of belief:
While definition no. 2: we are advice to avoid it. so we stick to definition no. 1.. thus, am not “ARGUING” just presenting the “ARGUMENT”

Definition of "ARGUMENT"
1.A fact or statement used to support a proposition; a reason.
2.A verbal dispute; a quarrel.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/argument

while "LOGIC" I believe this link agrees that have it has a place, with Biblical verses to support.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-logic.html



First Topic: (1) Using Root Word/s to define a word or a name.

I read in one thread (and I can’t find that thread now) that a word or a name is being defined by its root word.

I think we need to be careful to do that: to define a word, with its root word.

Reason:
People in the ancient times assign a TERM to a physical thing or an idea based on
- the PREVAILING thoughts at that TIME.
- *there can be unknown, personal reasons that we can no longer verify: such as the reason why our parent gave us our names

And that prevailing thoughts at that time can be wrong.

Say, THURSDAY root word is Thor’s day, that is: the prevailing culture or political system at that time assigned that term to that day.

But Thursday is definitely not a day for a man made god.

Say HUMILITY: people in ancient times may* refer it to LOWNESS, to EARTH, to GROUND, for what reason that we can only assume*: ground is lower than the air, the space, or the skies or clouds above..

But we Christian believes we are made from the earth, from the DUST, thus, it makes sense.

 

[bobinfaith]

Hello Aha;

I'm a talker. That has always been a part of my character. But there are "lessons" and during those years of "lessons" I would easily get into an argument, disagreement leading to a negative outcome. I would go out of my way to have the perfect "come back" and that was my way of putting an end to the argument or develop a bitter outlook of the other person. I still cringe at the thought. Father, forgive me.

Through the years, I started to see the light of the lessons and I give all glory to God. As Jesus built me up, grew me up with spiritual maturity He helped me develop talking more productively when reaching out to others in my community, the workplace, the secular world, the international community and the church.

I share the Gospel and this can raise alot of discussion, debate and arguments with all peoples. But an example of the KEY lessons I learned is listening.

People, believers and non-believers earnestly want to know the facts, the bottom line, and the Truth. But listening to what they feel and say emotionally, for example, ethics, morals and the Triune God. By listening can minimize arguments because as a Christian I want to respect the person's intelligence, no matter what their position, view or opinion. This gives me the opportunity to earn their respect, thus allowing me to share my faith in Christ Jesus.

Listening helps me to discern the ones who want to know, then feed them.

I'm also prepared that arguments and disagreements will always exist no matter how polished our talking and listening skills become. I still have my moments when my "argument" breaks down because I let down the guard of my heart and tongue.

God always gives me that spirit of repentance to confess, seek forgiveness from the other, seriously learn from it and go forth.

However, the ones who want to turn an argument or disagreement into name calling, or a fight, thats not coming from Jesus, then let them go.

Aha, there is a civil place for argument in Christian forums. But there is a revering spiritual leading of the Holy Spirit that enables us to present our convictions, in LOVE, without getting contentious.

Afterall, the world is watching us on Christian forums and our witness for Christ should take precedence.

I could write a novel on this topic but will stop for now and ask others to share their testimonies.

God bless you, Aha, your family and for initiating this thread. Salamat po!

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I think we need to be careful to do that: to define a word, with its root word.

Reason:
People in the ancient times assign a TERM to a physical thing or an idea based on
- the PREVAILING thoughts at that TIME.
- *there can be unknown, personal reasons that we can no longer verify: such as the reason why our parent gave us our names

And that prevailing thoughts at that time can be wrong.

Greetings aha ,
Root Words Especially when reading God's word are vitality important.
These root words also help in bringing the true meaning of the word.

Now you state......

And that prevailing thoughts at that time can be wrong.

How can this be?
What would you compare the thoughts of the time it was written to?

As far as logic goes......it plays a very limited role in understanding God's Word. Our logic for the most part will not ever line up with God's Word. That is why we are told we must Renew Our Minds unto the way God Thinks and understanding the Hebrew and Greek Root words are key.

Why is that?
Because when we apply our thinking or meanings to words we actually change What They Truly Spoke, thus perverting the written word of God.

Understanding is key, but it must be His understanding and not ours.

Thank you for your thoughts
Know Your Covenant
Enjoy your Salvation
Blessings in Christian
FCJ

 

[Siloam]

Root definitions are fine for understanding everyday substantitives, but when talking about things farther from what we directly touch and see and hear etc; every language, including, or particularly biblical ones use the everyday to inform about the unseen

For example the Greek PNEUMA and the Hebrew RUACH both refer literaly to wind, but are used to describe Spirit (whether Holy, or common). This does not imply that a tornado has more Holy Spirit than a summer breeze.

Some of the most acronomious arguments arise from differences in handling these definitions. I have not found these to be generally uplifting to anyone involved.

 

[Big Moose]

I searched on this topic and found this interesting article:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/3-ways-not-to-use-greek-in-bible-study/

It "argues" that we need to be careful in studying the root words definitions because they can lead us away from the actual word's meaning.
He uses the sentence, "Cinderella danced at the ball." Doing a study on all meanings of the word 'ball' would give us no help in the meaning of the sentence.

Blessings

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

For example the Greek PNEUMA and the Hebrew RUACH both refer literaly to wind, but are used to describe Spirit (whether Holy, or common). This does not imply that a tornado has more Holy Spirit than a summer breeze.

And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Why did they use Rushing Mighty Wind?
Stop and Think.
Today we have all sorts of loud noises and they did not. So to interpret unto the reader how loud or big the sound was, well they used what they had.....Rushing, Powerful Strong Wind and everyone knows how loud that is.

Understanding the writers and what they were saying when it was written is key.
Blessings

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

It "argues" that we need to be careful in studying the root words definitions because they can lead us away from the actual word's meaning.
He uses the sentence, "Cinderella danced at the ball." Doing a study on all meanings of the word 'ball' would give us no help in the meaning of the sentence.

Again common sense is a pluss.
The author of Cinderella was neither Early Greek or Hebrew neither were they anointed men of God.

Understanding what the words are saying in the day they are written are key. If we do not understand exactly what the writer is saying then we automatically Infuse our modern day understanding and change what the Anointed men wrote. This perverts God's Word and creates worthless doctrines that help no one.
Blessings

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I searched on this topic and found this interesting article:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/3-ways-not-to-use-greek-in-bible-study/

It "argues" that we need to be careful in studying the root words definitions because they can lead us away from the actual word's meaning.
He uses the sentence, "Cinderella danced at the ball." Doing a study on all meanings of the word 'ball' would give us no help in the meaning of the sentence.

Blessings

I agree with what your article is saying as far as analyzing modern day writing. For example you can make a reply and I can analyze your every word until I make you saying things you were not.

However dealing with God and His Written word it is key in understanding the Old Hebrew and Greek.

Words and understanding have changed over the centuries in All Languages.
Even the Cheyenne Tribe has old and new language.

Blessings

 

[Lanolin]

Well, I was thinking not a few members starts thread on “Bible Study”, and am very thankful as I can learn a lot from them.

I can’t start a thread on that, since am not a Bible Teacher.

But am thinking if I can post from time to time on topic: “Logical Argument”.

My purpose or intention:

1. well, I just like to start one
2. For my own education as well as hopefully to others who are interested.
3. An opportunity to direct in this thread instead, a clarification or a question on some post that I think is not logical. So as the discussion, additional lengthy pages will be here, instead of in that thread , so as not to "hijack" that thread. And hopefully, since Logic follow some rules, the issue will be discuss here following the rules of logic.

Now, since this is a Christian Forum, one of the first question can be: is there a place for “Argument” in the first place, or “Logic” in Christian forums?

I think yes:

"ARGUMENT" definition no. 1: is simply to reason, a statement of belief:
While definition no. 2: we are advice to avoid it. so we stick to definition no. 1.. thus, am not “ARGUING” just presenting the “ARGUMENT”

Definition of "ARGUMENT"
1.A fact or statement used to support a proposition; a reason.
2.A verbal dispute; a quarrel.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/argument

while "LOGIC" I believe this link agrees that have it has a place, with Biblical verses to support.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-logic.html



First Topic: (1) Using Root Word/s to define a word or a name.

I read in one thread (and I can’t find that thread now) that a word or a name is being defined by its root word.

I think we need to be careful to do that: to define a word, with its root word.

Reason:
People in the ancient times assign a TERM to a physical thing or an idea based on
- the PREVAILING thoughts at that TIME.
- *there can be unknown, personal reasons that we can no longer verify: such as the reason why our parent gave us our names

And that prevailing thoughts at that time can be wrong.

Say, THURSDAY root word is Thor’s day, that is: the prevailing culture or political system at that time assigned that term to that day.

But Thursday is definitely not a day for a man made god.

Say HUMILITY: people in ancient times may* refer it to LOWNESS, to EARTH, to GROUND, for what reason that we can only assume*: ground is lower than the air, the space, or the skies or clouds above..

But we Christian believes we are made from the earth, from the DUST, thus, it makes sense.

Ok here are some thoughts

GOd does say 'come let us reason together' so Hes a God that wants to have a conversation with us. When abraham asked God whether he was going to destroy Sodom he kind of has a bargain with him right down to ten righteous men.

The jewish people are especially known to be rather argumentative. But thats only because they are trying to figure out what God has told them. When you read the Old Testmament which is what, about three times the size of the New? They have a lot to read! As they are encourgaed to read it everyday, line by line and always be talking about it with their children so its just become engrained in their very souls.

But what about what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:22-23 that Jews seek a sign and the greeks go after wisdom (human wisdom?) . PAul understood the greeks (gentiles) were keen logicians. But what was Paul saying to them - we preach christ crucified. Which to the jews is a stumbling block and to gentiles foolishness.

So. What in the end does it matter (root words notwithstanding) if we do not preach the gospel.
We can look up root words all we want but what about going to the Word himself? I.e Jesus!

If we like to explore root words, well, how about studying some Hebrew? Go find yourself a linear Bible or concordance if thats your thing. Personally I like to read the Bible in chapters and of theres any word I dont understand I might look it up in the dictionary, but its sometimes helps to know how all the words are connected with each other and whther its a translation or a transliteration. For example baptise means 'to dip' or 'to immerse' but originally it was a transliterstion of the greek word because the english didnt have an equivalent name for it at the time.

Reading and understanding the Bible can be a lot like learning a whole new language. Sure there are bound to be misunderstandings! But its a universal language of love that reaches everyone of every tribe and tongue.

 

[bobinfaith]

Root definitions are fine for understanding everyday substantitives, but when talking about things farther from what we directly touch and see and hear etc; every language, including, or particularly biblical ones use the everyday to inform about the unseen

Hello Siloam;

In the beginning of your post you arrived at "about the unseen", was this an uncompleted sentence?

God bless you and your family.

 

[Lanolin]

And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Why did they use Rushing Mighty Wind?
Stop and Think.
Today we have all sorts of loud noises and they did not. So to interpret unto the reader how loud or big the sound was, well they used what they had.....Rushing, Powerful Strong Wind and everyone knows how loud that is.

Understanding the writers and what they were saying when it was written is key.
Blessings

PNEUMA and RUACH literal translation is 'breath' as in God's breath. To us, it can feel like a wind. You cant see it but you certainly know its there.
If you read other parts of the Bible it talks about scripture being 'God breathed'. Or 'inspired' literally in-spirit.
When Jesus the first time gave the holy spirit he actually breathed on his disciples.
When God created Adam in Genesis he literally breathed him into life, and Adam became a living soul.

Think about that each time you draw breath, think about the song 'everything that has breath, praise the Lord.' For whatever lives and breath owes their life to God.

Sadly many of us live in a world where fresh air is not even available. Its been polluted by satan. That is you might see people looking alive but they are actually dying and suffocating. They dont have Gods breath or access to Him. Gods breath can be pretty powerful. He parted the red sea. Thats how amazing our God is.

To me the Bible isnt a book that is so totally alien from what we can experience today. If the Bible says the holy spirit came like a mighty rushing wind then it was like a mighty rushing wind!

On thursday. Well in the Bible there is no mention of Thursday (that I recall) because at the time of writing they were going by the hebrew/Jewish Calendar not the gregorian calendar that was instituted in the western world centuries later. They just numbered the days of the week, the first day, the second and so on until the 7th day of the week which is the Sabbath. We get our weeks from Gods creating in 7 days. Other cultures have given them various names but it wasnt originally so. We get our months from the moon cycle.

On humility. That definition has not really changed. But it is interesting to look up the meaning of it. Especially if you dont understand something...I would recommend a dictionary. A good dictionary will give you the words origins. Many words in english are derived from another language.

If you were going to read a paraphrased Bible instead of a word for word translation you might have trouble, for example if you relied on the Message or the LOLcat bible you might not quite understand Gods word if you dont speak american slang or LOLcat.

 

[Siloam]

Hello Siloam;

In the beginning of your post you arrived at "about the unseen", was this an uncompleted sentence?

God bless you and your family.

A missing period. "The unseen", or spritual realm is understood most often by analogy to the common world around. This is a two edged sword, since all analogies have limits. The exact nature of those limits become the subject of scrutiny.

-- I just moved away ( sold ) my house and tap out messages without my preferred desk top computer. My pad seems to auto 'correct poorly, and my ability to edit is curtailed without an old style keyboard. I hope to find a new home soon and restore my internet connections.

 

[Siloam]

And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Why did they use Rushing Mighty Wind?
Stop and Think.
Today we have all sorts of loud noises and they did not. So to interpret unto the reader how loud or big the sound was, well they used what they had.....Rushing, Powerful Strong Wind and everyone knows how loud that is.

Understanding the writers and what they were saying when it was written is key.
Blessings

There are many reasons that wind makes a good basis for understanding the Spirit.
What comes to my mind quickly is that one does not SEE the wind. We see it's effects.

The point is that fundamentally the wind is NOT the Spirit. One cannot apply every thing we rightly know about wind to the Spirit, and there are many things about the Spirit that have no relationship to physical wind.

 

[aha]

Hello Aha;

I'm a talker. That has always been a part of my character. But there are "lessons" and during those years of "lessons" I would easily get into an argument, disagreement leading to a negative outcome. I would go out of my way to have the perfect "come back" and that was my way of putting an end to the argument or develop a bitter outlook of the other person. I still cringe at the thought. Father, forgive me.

Through the years, I started to see the light of the lessons and I give all glory to God. As Jesus built me up, grew me up with spiritual maturity He helped me develop talking more productively when reaching out to others in my community, the workplace, the secular world, the international community and the church.

I share the Gospel and this can raise alot of discussion, debate and arguments with all peoples. But an example of the KEY lessons I learned is listening.

People, believers and non-believers earnestly want to know the facts, the bottom line, and the Truth. But listening to what they feel and say emotionally, for example, ethics, morals and the Triune God. By listening can minimize arguments because as a Christian I want to respect the person's intelligence, no matter what their position, view or opinion. This gives me the opportunity to earn their respect, thus allowing me to share my faith in Christ Jesus.

Listening helps me to discern the ones who want to know, then feed them.

I'm also prepared that arguments and disagreements will always exist no matter how polished our talking and listening skills become. I still have my moments when my "argument" breaks down because I let down the guard of my heart and tongue.

God always gives me that spirit of repentance to confess, seek forgiveness from the other, seriously learn from it and go forth.

However, the ones who want to turn an argument or disagreement into name calling, or a fight, thats not coming from Jesus, then let them go.

Aha, there is a civil place for argument in Christian forums. But there is a revering spiritual leading of the Holy Spirit that enables us to present our convictions, in LOVE, without getting contentious.

Afterall, the world is watching us on Christian forums and our witness for Christ should take precedence.

I could write a novel on this topic but will stop for now and ask others to share their testimonies.

God bless you, Aha, your family and for initiating this thread. Salamat po!

Hi Pastor.. thanks for the post.

Yes indeed, one of the learning I got, and still learning is to LISTEN what one I saying… it TAKES EFFORT to READ and RE-READ as one-reading usually may not be enough.

it TAKES LOVE to understand what one is saying : as we abide to have ONE MIND in CHRIST.

It is surprising to me how the Secular world termed the following*

That is: even the secular world is learning or copying? some Christian virtues?.... I mean, CHARITY reminds me of 1 Corinthians 13....

They called it “Principle of Charity”.

There in philosophy what is called “Principle of Charity” : it LISTEN to others to maximum sense of the word to optimize agreement.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

"Davidson sometimes referred to it as the principle of rational accommodation. He summarized it: We make maximum sense of the words and thoughts of others when we interpret in a way that optimises agreement. The principle may be invoked to make sense of a speaker's utterances when one is unsure of their meaning."

 

[aha]

Greetings aha ,
Root Words Especially when reading God's word are vitality important.
These root words also help in bringing the true meaning of the word.

Yes indeed, thanks for the post as the title of the thread may give the impression that I do not see the benefit of studying the root word.

I do believe that root words are very helpful in bringing the true meaning of the word.

the "conclusion" I offered is: "Be careful".

will expound further on how I arrived in that conclusion...

 

[aha]

I searched on this topic and found this interesting article:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/3-ways-not-to-use-greek-in-bible-study/

It "argues" that we need to be careful in studying the root words definitions because they can lead us away from the actual word's meaning.
He uses the sentence, "Cinderella danced at the ball." Doing a study on all meanings of the word 'ball' would give us no help in the meaning of the sentence.

Blessings

Yes indeed, "careful" is the conclusion offered

thanks for the link I do agree with the author said:

"I'm not trying to discourage anyone from studying Greek. In fact, I would encourage as many Christians to learn it as can. But the reality is that most believers don't have the time or the ability.

 

[aha]

Now you state......
"AHA: And that prevailing thoughts at that time can be wrong"

How can this be?
What would you compare the thoughts of the time it was written to?

As far as logic goes......it plays a very limited role in understanding God's Word. Our logic for the most part will not ever line up with God's Word. That is why we are told we must Renew Our Minds unto the way God Thinks and understanding the Hebrew and Greek Root words are key.

Why is that?
Because when we apply our thinking or meanings to words we actually change What They Truly Spoke, thus perverting the written word of God.

Understanding is key, but it must be His understanding and not ours.

Thank you for your thoughts
Know Your Covenant
Enjoy your Salvation
Blessings in Christian
FCJ

I do agree that Logic plays a limited role in understand God's word: Spiritual things are understood spiritually, with God's grace.

As I understand the question: "What would you compare the thoughts of the time it was written to?

I understand the question as:

since I stated that "the prevailing thoughts at that time can be wrong": THEN: what will be my basis of saying that prevailing thoughts can be wrong?

Sampling I would say...

Logic applies as well the Scientific Method:

First: Problem Statement
2nd: Data gathering, and if the data is too big to gather: just get enough sample to experiment
3rd: analyze and observe
4th: conclusion.

1st: Problem Statement: is it safe to use root word to define a word?

2nd: Data Gathering: get some sample of some "words" to study its root word.
I used "Thursday" and "Humility".....
Out of respect from the thread starter (the thread that I can no longer found) that gave me the idea to start this thread: I will not use the word that was used in there: as he may not see this thread and may not have the opportunity to reply.

3: analyze and observe. I offered the analysis earlier on "Thursday" and "Humility".

4th: conclusion
thanks for the earlier post: I do not discourage knowing root words, in fact: I see it VERY HELPFUL to know the background of a word, it does give more insight.

but just saying as conclusion goes: "Be careful", "I think we need to be careful to do that: to define a word, with its root word"

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

That is: even the secular world is learning or copying? some Christian virtues?.... I mean, CHARITY reminds me of 1 Corinthians 13....

Charity means Love in the Scripture

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

As I understand the question: "What would you compare the thoughts of the time it was written to?

I understand the question as:

since I stated that "the prevailing thoughts at that time can be wrong": THEN: what will be my basis of saying that prevailing thoughts can be wrong?

How can you state that the thought at the time of writing scripture could ever be wrong?

 

[Lanolin]

How can you state that the thought at the time of writing scripture could ever be wrong?

Maybe aha means the particular paraphrase, not the translation? At the time of writing scripture, God Himself inspired the prophets to speak and the scribes wrote down what was said. It cannot be wrong. The orginal manuscripts, in Hebrew and Greek, were always copied word for word, they were just not allowed to copy them wrong or insert their own ideas.

This came later in commmentsties like the Talmud, mIshnah, and paraphrased Bibles. In translations, for the most part its word for word unless the translators are using dynamic equivalency or they just want to update the language ie. NIV. The KJV is of its time using 16th century english BUT its a translation from the original tongues, not a translation of a translation, eg it wasnt an english translation of the latin translation.

I wouldnt get too caught up in it personally. For me its a bit fruitless to argue over different translations. Some people like to read the Amplified Bible, but I always found it confusing having so much different choices of words. I am a crossword and scrabble fan though, but to me the Bible is better appreciated as Gods stories than quibbles over single words.