Ordaining Women
- Thread starter Hollyjoy
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Greetings:
If you have a board with conservative males and conservatives females and liberal males and liberal females; there would be foot dragging snits. Optimally for prudence, the first would be best.But if you want full speed ahead without regard for the torpedoes, go for the shouting match.
bye
If you have a board with conservative males and conservatives females and liberal males and liberal females; there would be foot dragging snits. Optimally for prudence, the first would be best.But if you want full speed ahead without regard for the torpedoes, go for the shouting match.
bye
Get your point. But some Anglican and other protestant churches are doing it as well. In my old age, I am tempted to think so what. We will all find areas where we are wrong. As long as we have the basics of Salvation by faith in Jesus, does any of the rest of these things really matter?
It seems that number of women pastors is on the rise in protestant churches. This is an old study (2007), but it lists church organizations and their stance at that time. Apparently there has been a large increase in the number of women pastors since that time.
denominations_20070405.pub (cbeinternational.org)
cp
denominations_20070405.pub (cbeinternational.org)
cp
our church has a married couple who are both priests( I think its Protestant)
they both seem like a very nice couple.
I remember joining the week before lockdown, and talking to her about being drawn to God, and letting him take control of my life and she laughed and said, 'oh yes its a wonderful thing'....
unfortunately, its been closed since then and I am sad to say I haven't been back. hopefully one day it will reopen
If you are looking for what people want then you will get the answer that women Deacons and Pastors are just as good as men so why not.
If on the other hand you want to know what God says then He tell us in 1 Timothy 3:1-3........(KJV)
"This is a true saying, If a "man" desire the office of a bishop, "he" desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, "the husband of one wife," vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous".
There is perhaps no more hotly debated issue in the church today than the issue of women serving as pastors. As a result, it is very important to not see this issue as men versus women so do not think that I am taking sides! There are women who believe women should not serve as pastors and that the Bible places restrictions on the ministry of women, and there are men who believe women can serve as pastors and that there are no restrictions on women in ministry. This is not an issue of chauvinism or discrimination. It is an issue of biblical interpretation.
Some say that Verses 8–10 clearly refer to all men and women, not just husbands and wives. so the point is mute, and there is nothing in the context that would indicate a narrowing to husbands and wives in verses 11–14.
Some say the word "MAN' in verse 1 stands for "HUMANITY" thus opening the door for women to be pastors.
I always stand on God's side!!! However the real question should be WHY did God say that?
1 Timothy 2:11-12 says...........
“A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent”.
OK! Got it. But then again we have to ask, WHY would God say THAT?
If you all would read 1 Timothy 2:11-14 God makes the reason why women cannot be pastors perfectly clear.
Verse 13 begins with “for,” giving the “cause” of Paul’s statement in verses 11–12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men?
Because “Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived” (verses 13–14). God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a “helper” for Adam. The order of creation has universal application in the family and in the church. It is really just that simple.
With the advancement of the "Feminist Movement" in recent decade, this argument has increased because women want the same ability as men.
Unfortunately, God does not deal with politics and what we want.
The fact that Eve was deceived is also given in 1 Timothy 2:14 as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This does not mean that women are gullible or that they are all more easily deceived than men. If all women are more easily deceived, why would they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? The text simply says that women are not to teach men or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. God has chosen to give men the primary teaching authority in the church.
Now some will feel the need to argue that answer with me and my answer is again real simple.......I do not know, when you get to heaven make a point to ask the Lord Jesus Christ as He is the author of those directions and I am sure He will take the time to explain.
I always respect your answers major.
so when the bible says 'teach' what does it mean?
when I think of 'teach' I think of a teacher in a school teaching people subjects that they have have learned themselves. usually from respected sources.
I am kind of wary of saying anything biblical to guys these days, in case it comes across as 'teaching them' things I shouldn't.
Now remember, I gave to you what says the Lord. My name is not found on the book of Timothy.
Teach means exactly what you think it means.
Opening the Scriptures and explaining what each Scripture means.
According to the Bible......IF a class of only men AGREE, then the woman can teach that class. However, if "one" objects then she should not be allowed to do so.
If it was not for the work of women in the church, there would be NO church at all!!!!
Like your thoughtful answer. But there are many instances in the bible where women were in the forefront. Deborah was both a prophet and a Judge. Miriam led worship in Ex 15:20. Huldah the prophetess had a leading role in 2 Kings. Mary of Bethany who sat at the feet of Jesus, a privilege normally reserved for men. Lydia was an early Church leader in Phillippi and believers gathered at her home. Luke mentions Priscilla before Aquilla which may mean she was the lead teacher of the two. Joel 2 speaks of "Your sons and DAUGHTERS will prophecy. Peter confirmed this on the Day of Pentacost. Don't wish to argue but if women are NEVER to teach or lead men, why does the Word reference these women in teaching/prophecy/worship?
There is NO biblical support to have women ordained as pastors, or appointed as being Elders in the local church!
Holly......I will never argue the point with anyone. What I posted is what God said .......NOT ME!
Now if you will allow me, I will try to giver some details to some of the women you spoke of in your post. I do this only for enlightenment purposes.
Deborah.
She of course was not an ordained Deacon or Pastor. May I just point out a few things for you to consider.
1. With Deborah there is no recognition of God’s appointing. Judges 4:4 simply says, “Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, was judging Israel at that time.”
2. Deborah's ministry was Private verses Public. Judges 4:5 says Deborah........
“would sit under the palm tree . . . And the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.”
The nation approached her privately. She didn’t publicly teach God’s Word.
3. Deborah encouraged Barak to be the leader.
Notice in Judges 4:6-7 The statement..............
“Has not the Lord God of Israel commanded?” shouldn’t be understood as Deborah giving orders to Barak. As a prophetess, she received a word from God and passed it along to Barak. She confirmed what he already should have known, that God commanded him to lead the army.
HULDAH.
She was not in a position of leadership. She was not teaching the Word of God but was instead a prophetess.
Huldah the prophetess stayed faithful to the Lord in a very dark time in history. The people were stuck in sin, following their own desires, but Huldah chose to serve the Lord and not herself. At a time when Judah was entrenched in idolatry, Huldah's faithfulness to the Lord allowed her to share God's words of judgment and of comfort with King Josiah. She was part of God's work in the life of the king and the lives of the people.
Mary of Bethany .
well as other women in the Bible she was used greatly by God and was faithful but she was never in a position of teaching men the Scriptures' or in leadership.
Lydia
Acts 16:14-15, 40 tells us about Lydia, Paul's first European convert to Jesus, She was a business woman and to the best of my knowledge the Scriptures do not tell us that she was an ordained person or taught the Scriptures.
Priscilla before Aquilla
Supposedly, since Priscilla’s name “always” precedes Aquila’s name, she was aid to be the dominant one in the relationship (and thus, the Bible teacher of her family).
However, if we gig deeper into the Scriptures we see That is simply not true, as a careful reading of the Bible text shows us. When first introduced to us, Aquila comes before Priscilla (Acts 18:2).
In journeys, she appears first (Acts 18:18). When being greeted, she is first (Romans 16:3; 2 Timothy 4:19).
However, when greeting others, she is second, after Aquila (1 Corinthians 16:19).
In the case of teaching, Aquila comes first, then Priscilla (Acts 18:26). Priscilla never dominates her husband with respect to teaching ministry or family just as the Scriptures tell us that the Husband is the head of the family as Christ is the head of the Church.
Joel 2.
“All flesh”: Since the context is “your sons and daughters,” the logical understanding then is “all mankind”.
Now you asked a really good question of..................
" Don't wish to argue but if women are NEVER to teach or lead men, why does the Word reference these women in teaching/prophecy/worship?"
By going into deeper detail I hope that you can now see that the examples you used were not actually "teaching men".
a question for the men on here....
what do you think the bible means by women should be silent in church?
what do you think the bible means by women should be silent in church?
Think the scriptures are addressing the issue if women are permitted to teach as either pastor or an elder!
We have women who teach children and other women in our baptist church, so not stating cannot teach period!
There are two Greek verbs translated silence in the New Testament. In many cases these words have more the sense of holding one's peace say until an appropriate time.
Acts 15:12-13 Then all the multitude kept silence, G4601 and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held G4601 ➔ their peace, G4601 James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Here the multitude kept silent, holding their peace until the appropriate time to speak.
The church is the bride of Christ, the church too should be silent, holding their peace under certain circumstances with Christ, yet we are to speak to God. Job was made well aware that he should keep silent when God spoke to him and then he gave answer.
cp
Acts 15:12-13 Then all the multitude kept silence, G4601 and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held G4601 ➔ their peace, G4601 James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Here the multitude kept silent, holding their peace until the appropriate time to speak.
The church is the bride of Christ, the church too should be silent, holding their peace under certain circumstances with Christ, yet we are to speak to God. Job was made well aware that he should keep silent when God spoke to him and then he gave answer.
cp
I ask children to be silent in the library, but they can only do it for maybe a couple of minutes. Then they start talking again. It's quite hard to get children in the habit of stopping their mouths, so that the they can hear the teacher speak. But the main aim to be silent is so the can concentrate on reading their library books, in their heads. It DOES help when people are silent.
I have no problems being silent in church, as most men that preach go on and on and on and don't let anyone else talk anyway.
I now don't bother going to hear them, since I can read the Bible at home in peace and quiet. Its just as good! Also I can read for hours, and stop when I want to, rather than have to wait and listen to someone else.
I have no problems being silent in church, as most men that preach go on and on and on and don't let anyone else talk anyway.
I now don't bother going to hear them, since I can read the Bible at home in peace and quiet. Its just as good! Also I can read for hours, and stop when I want to, rather than have to wait and listen to someone else.
Also was the custom of time of Apostles, where the church had men on one side and women on the other, so the women were not to shout out to husband, and wait until they got home!
Hello brothers and sisters;
The part about women being silent? No. That is being too literal. For example, in 1 Corinthians 14:34, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
One of the many reasons Paul was teaching this was because in the then and there times, women were not given the opportunity to participate in speaking and being trained to study in the synagogues back in the Old Testament and the church in the New Testament, except at home with their husbands.
This is ironic because in 1 Corinthians 11:5, women of God were praying and prophesying with the men in the church.
As Major mentioned, According to the Bible......IF a class of only men AGREE, then the woman can teach that class. However, if "one" objects then she should not be allowed to do so. As a church going husband and wife, we have never had an issue approving when a woman taught a Bible study or workshop. My professor at seminary had her PHd which is required to teach Christian Counseling. Both were anointed and did an outstanding service to the Lord!
I feel that we put so much of our all in all in our faith and daily lives so when we read these verses fully literal this can become a misreading of the text. The Bible is not meant to be a lazy read. Instead, try reading Scripture in small bites to develop an understanding through deeper reading of what the context of the individual sentence is saying.
Sisters, in the here and now times, please continue to share your faith and testimony wherever God leads you including Christian Forum Site. Men and women need to hear your story for Christ.
God bless you all and your families.
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