Ordaining Women

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People are always reading out of context and not really thinking how it affects others, especially if one has something to say or pray about and then some guy shuts them down just because they are female and makes blanket rules that don't apply in all situations.

When I say 'boys' be quiet, it would probably be because it was the boys were actually being the noisy ones. Same if it was just girls. Some teachers do this just to have a bit of order in their classrooms. They might say boys go first, or girls. Its not trying to cause division as such.

In churches, esp the ones Paul was adminstering, at the time. I would suppose it was the women who were being especially noisy.
You go to an all-female church gathering and you STILL need to be quiet and respectful if anyone is speaking, regardless of gender.

I have been to a lot of female gatherings in church, and no we don't talk all the time. I think there is more opportunity to say things though, but even then its not chat chat chat chat and idle gossip. A lot of women don't actually have husbands at home to ask..they are unmarried, or they are widowed or divorced or whatever. Its wrong to assume everything is exactly like it was in Paul's day with the churches that he was teaching in.

Anyhow..no arguing ok? I am so over people arguing over something that's easily resolved. Mostly by listening to God first before anyone even says ANYTHING and by reading the Bible prayerfully!
 
thenami said:
I agree that women are not to be pastors, nor elders. However I have a new question that has arisen from this thread.
If women are to be silent in churches (unless teaching other women/children), where does that leave forums like this?
Where there are two or more gathered in the name of Jesus Christ, does that not constitute a church?
If Christian Forum Site is a church, under biblical definition, are women to be silent in conversations with men?
I know this is splitting hairs, but what does scripture say? Women are to be silent in the churches.

Therefore I am sinning by participation in conversations not directed to the instruction of women and children.
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Yes we are. And although the "Bible says' women should have no leadership/teaching in the Church, it mentions several in leadership and prophecy. So the bible contradicts itself? I don't think so.
 
Major said:
Holly......I will never argue the point with anyone. What I posted is what God said .......NOT ME!

Now if you will allow me, I will try to giver some details to some of the women you spoke of in your post. I do this only for enlightenment purposes.

Deborah.
She of course was not an ordained Deacon or Pastor. May I just point out a few things for you to consider.

1. With Deborah there is no recognition of God’s appointing. Judges 4:4 simply says, “Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, was judging Israel at that time.”

2. Deborah's ministry was Private verses Public. Judges 4:5 says Deborah........
“would sit under the palm tree . . . And the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.”
The nation approached her privately. She didn’t publicly teach God’s Word.

3. Deborah encouraged Barak to be the leader.
Notice in Judges 4:6-7 The statement..............
“Has not the Lord God of Israel commanded?” shouldn’t be understood as Deborah giving orders to Barak. As a prophetess, she received a word from God and passed it along to Barak. She confirmed what he already should have known, that God commanded him to lead the army.

HULDAH.
She was not in a position of leadership. She was not teaching the Word of God but was instead a prophetess.
Huldah the prophetess stayed faithful to the Lord in a very dark time in history. The people were stuck in sin, following their own desires, but Huldah chose to serve the Lord and not herself. At a time when Judah was entrenched in idolatry, Huldah's faithfulness to the Lord allowed her to share God's words of judgment and of comfort with King Josiah. She was part of God's work in the life of the king and the lives of the people.

Mary of Bethany .
well as other women in the Bible she was used greatly by God and was faithful but she was never in a position of teaching men the Scriptures' or in leadership.

Lydia
Acts 16:14-15, 40 tells us about Lydia, Paul's first European convert to Jesus, She was a business woman and to the best of my knowledge the Scriptures do not tell us that she was an ordained person or taught the Scriptures.

Priscilla before Aquilla
Supposedly, since Priscilla’s name “always” precedes Aquila’s name, she was aid to be the dominant one in the relationship (and thus, the Bible teacher of her family).

However, if we gig deeper into the Scriptures we see That is simply not true, as a careful reading of the Bible text shows us. When first introduced to us, Aquila comes before Priscilla (Acts 18:2).

In journeys, she appears first (Acts 18:18). When being greeted, she is first (Romans 16:3; 2 Timothy 4:19).

However, when greeting others, she is second, after Aquila (1 Corinthians 16:19).

In the case of teaching, Aquila comes first, then Priscilla (Acts 18:26). Priscilla never dominates her husband with respect to teaching ministry or family just as the Scriptures tell us that the Husband is the head of the family as Christ is the head of the Church.

Joel 2.
“All flesh”: Since the context is “your sons and daughters,” the logical understanding then is “all mankind”.


Now you asked a really good question of..................
" Don't wish to argue but if women are NEVER to teach or lead men, why does the Word reference these women in teaching/prophecy/worship?"

By going into deeper detail I hope that you can now see that the examples you used were not actually "teaching men".
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I enjoyed your summary. But I believe some of it is splitting hairs; the public came to Deborah for judgement, so she was not in leadership role, however the verse you quoted stated that Deborah was a prophetess and judging Israel at that time. I assume "Israel" was both men and women? However I am just an idiot and you must be correct. So I will keep shut from now on. Thank you for the enlightenment
 
Hollyjoy said:
Yes we are. And although the "Bible says' women should have no leadership/teaching in the Church, it mentions several in leadership and prophecy. So the bible contradicts itself? I don't think so.
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Hollyjoy said:
I enjoyed your summary. But I believe some of it is splitting hairs; the public came to Deborah for judgement, so she was not in leadership role, however the verse you quoted stated that Deborah was a prophetess and judging Israel at that time. I assume "Israel" was both men and women? However I am just an idiot and you must be correct. So I will keep shut from now on. Thank you for the enlightenment
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Hello Hollyjoy;

In your post, "Yes we are." On one hand you are saying yes, but in the rest you seem to be saying no. Please clarify?

In your post regarding Deborah she was the 4th and first woman Judge in Judges 4, and in fact was leading Israel at that time because in Judges there were no kings. In Judges she is not recognized by title as "king or leader" but is written that she served God as prophetess (counselor, advisor) and judge.

Deborah also sang worship to God. You're asking and making good questions and comments.

God bless you and thank you, Hollyjoy.
 
Paul was saying about no teaching and being quiet 'I do not permit a woman to teach'. Paul wasn't saying God doesn't permit a woman to teach, ever! It was just his particular situation, though he did give a reason for it.

Men often don't realise this, but they have ALWAYS been the first to do anything. Because God made them first. Most ladies already know this, and wouldn't try to go ahead of a man, or interrupt him. Just not the done thing.

Mary knew the right thing to do, which was to sit quiet and listen at Jesus feet, rather than complain loudly like Martha. She probably did not even need to go to any church gatherings, cos she had special home tutoring lol.

The lawless Gentiles though, unlike Jewish women, who generally followed all the laws, probably had no clue about propriety though. Remember Paul was teacher to Gentiles. They did not really know how to behave themselves. He even needed to tell them to wear 'modest apparel'.

How many women in church do you see wearing gold jewellery, pearl necklaces and expensive clothing I wonder....? I imagine those early gentile churches were pretty noisy and flashy gatherings! Paul even had to tell Timothy that deacons had to be married just ONCE and not get drunk or be greedy. And their wives not be drunk also!

He describes church kinda like going to school all over again. Those laws weren't made for the righteous, who don't need to be reminded of something they already know to do. Its for the unrighteous.
 
Hollyjoy said:
I enjoyed your summary. But I believe some of it is splitting hairs; the public came to Deborah for judgement, so she was not in leadership role, however the verse you quoted stated that Deborah was a prophetess and judging Israel at that time. I assume "Israel" was both men and women? However I am just an idiot and you must be correct. So I will keep shut from now on. Thank you for the enlightenment
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Not so my friend. We all learn from others and if we say or ask nothing we will not learn anything!!!!

Please feel free to state your thoughts and allow all of us to respond.

"Judgment" is a lot different than teaching the Scriptures. In the Old Test. "Judges" were people who served roles as military leaders in times of crisis.
The judges were a successive line of individuals, each from a different tribe of Israel, and usually were descended from royalty and described as chosen by God to rescue the people from their enemies and establish justice.

YOU are not an idiot and I do not have to be correct. All I do is state the facts and let those reading do the work for themselves to validate those facts.

Reallly and factually......if women had not been involved in the church, there would not be a church at all!
 
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"I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another." (John 13:34; NASB)

The provisions of Corinthians was because there were many churches and gods in the city and the women there were driven hotly by emotion. It was customary to just shout out responses and questions. Paul was trying to give them some instruction for order relating specific to that culture and its climate.

Jesus wants a relationship on a personal level with His new creation in us. Gender is irrelevant among the angels and should also be among our spiritual brothers and sisters as we are all of feminine sex in our marriage to Christ.

This Scripture stands out to me as it reveals Christs heart for women even to up to the point of His death on the cross:

John 19:25-28 (NASB) -
25 Now beside the cross of Jesus stood His mother, His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 So when Jesus saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”
27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her into his own household.
28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, in order that the Scripture would be fulfilled, said, “I am thirsty.”

Jesus designated His mother as an equal and authority of one of His best disciples.
 
There is a lot to be said about many issues in the Bible and many of those are forbidden topics here. What we must remember is that we should live our convictions. If it offends a brother or sister then don't do it. It is better to default to love and be "wrong" than combative and spiteful and be "right". Jesus decides all matters pertaining to the church and if it truly serves Him then He will convict and correct any wrong-doing by either party.
 
Sorry in advance for the rambling..

In the end of the matter God is not served by human hands in any way shape or form . . (Neither male nor female). He can use an unbeliever to perform his will as easily as one born again .He sends us out two by two (men and woman) as one virtuous creation.

We can plant the seed and water it with the doctrines of God but the teacher the Holy Spirit must apply it to the heart. In that way we are informed in Job 23 that our God is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desire, He performs that in us which he appoints to us working in us to both will and empower us to do his good pleasure . Nothing is accredited to male or female teachers. (Philippian 2:13) Job in the end replied he makes our hearts soft.

In that way we are warned to call no man on earth “good teaching Master as Lord . One is our teaching master our Father and lord in heaven. Even Jesus when called good master as Lord Jesus gave glory to the unseen Father

He does not allow woman to usurp authority over the man, or men over woman .The being silent had to do with the picture of virtue two becoming one a picture of the father and Son working together the father providing a bride (men and woman) the new order in the new heavens and earth the church

Eve sinned first but Adam the husband that represented the Son of God is accredited with the sin .He failed to protect her. . “Virtue was lost”. Christ did not fail. . Virtue was gained

In the parable below the gospel understanding hidden speaks of the body of Christ the church. Men and woman (the new creature) working together in harmony strengthening each other. Her husband in the parable below represents Christ.

Proverbs 31:10-31 ] Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. ...

Gender division is an oral tradition of men that uses a hierarchy form of government. This opposes what God has joined together let no man separate. Men and woman as one are used to represent the virtuous bride of Christ. (Christianity) Not what we are as sons of God but what we will be when we receive our new incorruptible bodies

Because of the promise of Joel God’s send out this living temple men and women from all the nations like the tabernacle in the wilderness The Holy Spirit sends the New Testament priesthood not after the Leviticus the temporal old order that was reformed under the new testament order.

At the time of Jesus there was a high wall (not of Gods design) separating the Jewish woman from the Jewish men who performed the ceremonies as well as another wall that separated the gentiles (men and woman) from being part of the ceremonies of Jewish men. Both walls came down and the New Testament ceremonial law was introduced as a shadow that points to the new heavens and earth (hair covering for woman and head uncovered for men along with the breaking of bread and blood of grapes.

A ceremony or shadow that pointed ahead that needed both genders as representative glories to point to the one unseen glory, the commencement of the virtuous bride the church Virtue having now gone out.

The first century reformation it restored the order back to when there was no kings in Israel (the abomination of desolation) men and woman prophets holding out the gospel from all nations.

LGBTQ is on the rise (no law no trespass) and Catholicism is quick to jump on the band wagon .It was the first executive order of the new President (Catholic.) it appears to be something President Obama was working on . It’s been silenced as it seems until now.

like in all thing what God calls separate the spirit of error calls it together as one . . .or what God calls one the father of lies makes it two or more .

No one has received the promise of their new incorruptible bodies that will be neither Jew nor gentile male nor female .The gender bender oral tradition would have mankind believe the kingdom has come (Gnosticism ) When they say peace the end is near .
 
Hollyjoy said:
Yes we are. And although the "Bible says' women should have no leadership/teaching in the Church, it mentions several in leadership and prophecy. So the bible contradicts itself? I don't think so.
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None were set up as Pastors nor Elders though in local church!
 
Nazarene Servant said:
"I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another." (John 13:34; NASB)

The provisions of Corinthians was because there were many churches and gods in the city and the women there were driven hotly by emotion. It was customary to just shout out responses and questions. Paul was trying to give them some instruction for order relating specific to that culture and its climate.

Jesus wants a relationship on a personal level with His new creation in us. Gender is irrelevant among the angels and should also be among our spiritual brothers and sisters as we are all of feminine sex in our marriage to Christ.

This Scripture stands out to me as it reveals Christs heart for women even to up to the point of His death on the cross:

John 19:25-28 (NASB) -
25 Now beside the cross of Jesus stood His mother, His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 So when Jesus saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”
27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her into his own household.
28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, in order that the Scripture would be fulfilled, said, “I am thirsty.”

Jesus designated His mother as an equal and authority of one of His best disciples.
Click to expand...
Actually, he appointed John to take care of her!
 
Nazarene Servant said:
There is a lot to be said about many issues in the Bible and many of those are forbidden topics here. What we must remember is that we should live our convictions. If it offends a brother or sister then don't do it. It is better to default to love and be "wrong" than combative and spiteful and be "right". Jesus decides all matters pertaining to the church and if it truly serves Him then He will convict and correct any wrong-doing by either party. Think that in this particular issue, there is a misunderstanding of while the truth is that we are indeed now one in Christ, neither male nor female, all equally saved by the Lord, He still has the pattern of established male leadership in pastors and Elders leading the local churches!
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I think it is good to remember that the church as a whole is the bride of Christ. As a church we are in subjection to Christ.

I like to reflect on how these scriptures then apply to all Christians since our relationship with Christ is as a woman. God doesn't want us silent, no we are to come to the Father in prayer with Christ with us. We are to teach those in our care.

Pondering the relationship we have with Christ, I believe aids us in understanding these scriptures regarding men and women in Christ.

cp
 
Matthew 18:18 (NASB) says, "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven". So again, we have assurance that if it is an offense to you then don't do it but we permit others to exercise their free-will in their service to Christ. Cultures all over the world mistreat women should women receive less when they become a child of God or more?
 
YeshuaFan said:
None were set up as Pastors nor Elders though in local church!
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None of the elders as leaders that serve in a assembly of more than one family are without wife and children .The ministry is always twofold every time, . .a family affair The husband of one wife able to kerp children in check as an example of those who can as a team guide the flock. The divorced are not eligible in that setting. .Others like Clinton are impeached.

It would be like Bill (I did not have sex) an example to the voters having 8 years and Hillary another 8 years . I would think 8 years of one family. the wife having the better knowlegde of the husband helping him decide
 
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